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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#121 - 2013-04-08 17:01:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
What should the Hyperion be used for?


The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.

Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.

As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.


Here is a solution for you: change active armor tanking to not rely on cap. You seem to have gone out of the way to make the AAR and ASB not the same by requiring cap usage still for the AAR. How about making cap requirement a shield boosting thing and change active armor tanking to something else? Gallente active armor tanking relies too heavily on cap. Guns need cap. Prop mod needs cap. Tank needs cap. As compared to shield, only the prop mod and unloaded ASB's need cap. It is unbalanced. Fix it.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#122 - 2013-04-08 17:01:29 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Ask yourself "Can this hyperion take on an abbadon, mael, or Rokh fleet?"

I think the answer is no. Rep bonus is cool and all, but I feel that an 7-8 low new bonus mega could do it. This hyperion can't. I think the Mega should be the Combat while the hyperion should be the attack. No one in their right mind is going to take out a hype fleet utilizing the rep bonus to a SOV fight. Rep bonus in fleets won't let you hold the field where Logi/triage is king. At least as an attack BS there would be more incentive to play around with it.

I appreciate what you are doing, trying new things is great. I just don't see it working the that you want it to.

Oh yeah, just look at how gallente ships are at being amarr ships !!

Come on ! These are *gallente* ships ! Not *amarr* ships ! Amarr doctrine is sit, stand and shoot. No wonder why they are the best at sitting in front of an outpost, standing and shooting. You cannot make gallente better than them for this.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-04-08 17:02:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
So what I'm hearing is that you're trying to base the Hyperion on the hope that active armor tanking will be fixed enough to make a comeback.

Doesn't it seem like you're putting the cart before the horse?

Tell me I'm off base here....


Please, because I really want to fly the myrm and hyperion.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#124 - 2013-04-08 17:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Megathron and Hyperion have their roles shaked up a bit, but all roles they had still exists, and I think they earn some capabilities in the end.

And for the Dominix, it's basically an integrated drone omnidirectional tracking link. Per se, it may be a bit weak in fact, as ship bonuses tend to be better than module bonuses most of the time, but that's still usefull for drones (and heavy drones have a use for this too), and that allow for sentry sniping a lot more easilly (ship bonuses are not stacking penalized).

Basically, it's a lot of changes, but I think they are mostly good. Just adapt.


Mega will be used over the Hyperion in every single case with the exception of gimmick solo repper fit.

Edit: LOL, Hype will also fail as solo ship due to no web.

Hyperion is the one ship that absolutely needs the remote armor repping received to make it work in groups of more than two. Maybe 4%/level to keep it on par with the resistance bonus from other similar ships (along with it's self-repping bonus).

Really CCP, if you want to make active armor repping good, then apply the bonus to both self and remote reps:
o 7.5% / level self repping, 4%/level remote repping received.

It still won't make the bonus as good as the resistance bonus (you get increased EHP with the resistance bonus), but doing this will help the ships survive better in larger groups - increasing their engagement envelope.

There will be exceptions like the incursus, but as the hull size increases, the need for remote reps increases as well.
Nometh Xergent
#125 - 2013-04-08 17:04:20 UTC
Im pretty new player tho i have played a couple of months.
So i dont have so much to say really, but right now im Flying the Megathron and it works pretty fun for missions. (4)
But that low-slot will hurt, really much actually. I know i dont have the best tanker-skills even tho i think the Mega needs it low-slot.

And for the Domi, i kind of like the new Dominix, the boost in EHP and the drone bonus. But somehow it stil weird that a Battleship is only focused on drones when it got so many high slots. (For bonuses i mean)

- Again, this is my opinion. But im not a veteran at all.

Feel free to "re-balance" the ships CCP. But please dont **** it up because BS:s are a very important tool in the game.

“I’ve always loathed the necessity of sleep. Like death, it puts even the most powerful men on their backs.”
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#126 - 2013-04-08 17:05:24 UTC
My suggestion for the hyp:

Drop a gun hardpoint, give it the 10% damage bonus (gains .5 gun worth of dps).

Tweak its fitting a bit (the active armor rig changes hurt it a bunch in the fitting dept, but the loss of a gun will make up for that I suppose).

Done. (Maybe give it another flight of light drones, but i dont see a pressing need)
BarryBonez
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-04-08 17:05:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
What should the Hyperion be used for?

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.


I'm glad that you still recognize the pilots that try to go out solo for some fun. That's what I enjoy doing most, but thanks to expensive ships, it's pretty rough right now. I can handle some ratting to get my funds up, but as it stands, a decent battlecruiser out in 0.0 runs me around 80mil fitted (t1 & t2) or 120+ for the t3. To pay this much just to roam for an hour or two through empty systems only to end up being blobbed truly tests one's patience. Sure after insurance it's maybe only a 40 mil loss, but that may take upwards of an hour to accumulate of shooting boring NPCs. I know this post may seem a little whiny, but I'm just trying to be honest here and express how trying to be a solo pilot simply is not very enjoyable at this point. Affordable battleships would definitely help to tip the scales since a well-fitted BS can handle small gangs on it's own. However, they are slow and solo roams can be loooong. If ships did not cost twice as much as they did when I started playing around 2.5 years ago, the pain of fitting one out and going out alone would be lessened.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-04-08 17:05:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Roime wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?





how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?


Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#129 - 2013-04-08 17:05:53 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Taking away a low on the hyperion makes it a worse brawler, not better.

Right now it can fit cap booster, scram, web, prop, and a 2nd cap booster, which is needed to active tank it.

Dropping a mid forces it to either go propless, in which case it is massively outclassed by the maelstrom, or drop a cap booster, in which case it is hilariously vulnerable to neuts.


Going to assume you meant mid :P


Indeed I did.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-04-08 17:06:30 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
People are so scared of changes !

You can get back what the hyperion lost in the midslot with the low slot ; basically, only triple rep setup will really be hurt, but double rep setup will be almost as powerful and require a lot less cap.

And if utility was the problem, the Megathron will take this place.

Yet, the Hyperion will now replace the Megathron for fleet duties with lots of benefits (8 guns is good, and tier3 hp are good).

Megathron and Hyperion have their roles shaked up a bit, but all roles they had still exists, and I think they earn some capabilities in the end.

And for the Dominix, it's basically an integrated drone omnidirectional tracking link. Per se, it may be a bit weak in fact, as ship bonuses tend to be better than module bonuses most of the time, but that's still usefull for drones (and heavy drones have a use for this too), and that allow for sentry sniping a lot more easilly (ship bonuses are not stacking penalized).

Basically, it's a lot of changes, but I think they are mostly good. Just adapt.


You need two heavy cap boosters for a dual rep set up also.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-04-08 17:06:39 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Roime wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?





how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?


Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns.

It still had 6 turret hard points ergo only a 25% drop in damage

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-04-08 17:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
loss of the launcher slot for those of us who wanted to go pure DPS


Yes the Megathron is surely at a loss not being able to fit an unbonused HML to gain a whole 20 DPS ~my isk/hr~

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#133 - 2013-04-08 17:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
What should the Hyperion be used for?


The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.

Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.

As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.


Don't give up on active armor reps! But on the second to last paragraph about finding a way to allow the solo pilot better access to tackle--buff webbing drones! Or give ships like the Hyp a buff that applies to them! This is a joke, though I'd like to see the utility drones be more useful...but I don't see why you just don't remove the cap use from AARs and make them more like ASBs, that way the hyp would not be so cap lame. Or remove a high add it to mid.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#134 - 2013-04-08 17:12:45 UTC
We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.

There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.

Thanks for the feedback

@ccp_rise
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#135 - 2013-04-08 17:12:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors?


Because you *need*
1) point
2) web
3) prop mod
4+5) two injectors

...for your Hyperion not to be even more awful than it already is.

And I'm pretty sure anyone that PVPs and can count on five fingers could have figured this out for you.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-04-08 17:13:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Roime wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?





how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?


Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns.

It still had 6 turret hard points ergo only a 25% drop in damage



Your forgetting heat no? Can't overheat drones.
luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2013-04-08 17:13:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?


The dominix lost 25 percent of its turret dps, which is still a significant nerf. Without the damage bonus everyone is just going to use autocannons. The dominix needs an extra drone and +25 bandwidth, which will never happen probably.

As far as the megathron is concerned, it is going to make it much harder for new players to run missions. losing a low is going to equire either taking off a hardener or losing a magstab. It will result in an overall loss of dps which means frustrated player.

After these changes, the gallente will lack a strong pve platform. The caldari have the raven or the golem. The minmatar have the machariel or the vargur. The amarr have the apoc navy issue or the paladin. The gallente will be outdpsed by all of them. The kronos is terrible, the megathron is losing damage, the dominix is losing 25 percent of its damage and will be outdpsed by other races battlecruisers. Why fly gallente? What will make people want to fly Gallente more after these changes?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-04-08 17:14:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.

There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.

Thanks for the feedback

No more updates today or no more for the hyp today?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2013-04-08 17:14:29 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Roime wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?





how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?


Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns.


You still have the guns, they just don't have a bonus anymore.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-04-08 17:14:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.

There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.

Thanks for the feedback



Thank you

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.