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Combat carriers in small gang PvP
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2013-03-03 04:32:22 UTC
Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.
yer mammy
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-03-03 05:59:24 UTC
no.
Fireflyb1
Walden 2.0
#3 - 2013-03-03 06:13:56 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.


You seem to be trying to figure out how to use a triage/rep-based ship (a ship basically designed for repping other ships (utilities, as you say) as something that doesn't do any of this...

Carriers are generally used for remote repping small gangs (I'm sure others can provide more detail than this, lol) so it's not really a ship that you can apply a DPS and EHP number to in your calculations of small gang warfare (let alone GTFO ability.)
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-03-03 07:57:26 UTC
Let's just say that if you bring a carrier, it won't be small gang for very long.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#5 - 2013-03-03 08:47:02 UTC
Enjoy being hotdropped on by everyone and their mother
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-03-03 13:38:32 UTC
Sounds like fun, just don't expect to get out alive
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#7 - 2013-03-03 14:29:03 UTC
Never has so many cut-throats, backstabbing thieves and mistrusting pirates joined forces as when a lone capital is called out. They will put aside all their differences and sing songs of peace and love just for the pleasure of getting a share of that killmail.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#8 - 2013-03-03 17:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: chris elliot
You are forgetting something important. Carriers in triage can not deploy drones. Any drones that are deployed when you enter triage get disconnected until you exit triage and recall them.

A lone carrier without triage can easily be killed by a small gang due to how slowly your reps cycle. If you are going to use a carrier for something pvp oriented it needs to be a proper repping triage carrier. And should be deployed when you have a reasonable chance of killing off the other gang, or holding the field long enough for you to exit triage and get to a tower or station.

Failure to do this will result in you loosing your carrier.

If you want lots of ehp and damage get a t3 or faction battleship and be happy.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#9 - 2013-03-03 19:01:48 UTC
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#10 - 2013-03-03 19:59:00 UTC
It's because carriers attract blobs a lot more than a t3 regardless of the fit, and it's much easier to remove a carrier's dps than a t3s so at a point they could afk shoot you down.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#11 - 2013-03-03 21:08:28 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.


You forget that the moon aligns faster than carriers do.

Also, rep range on an archon is about 45 km, with about a 30 sec lock time on things that are not battleships. A single proteus will point you easily at that range and lol at your pitiful sentry damage. Shy of that most ships only need to get within 28 of you to point you with an OH point. Battleships are the only things that come to mind that are a bit slow to do this in under a few seconds.

What you are thinking of is sometimes called slowcats. This works when there are lots and lots of them. But not when you are trying to support a gang.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-03-03 21:18:07 UTC
This is proly a dumb question but I've never been in a gang with a carrier. Can they assign their drones to another member then go triage?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-03-03 21:43:54 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
This is proly a dumb question but I've never been in a gang with a carrier. Can they assign their drones to another member then go triage?

I'm pretty sure they will deactivate still. Otherwise noone would ever say that triage removed DPS and rage threads would've been popping up from time to time Smile

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Denuo Secus
#14 - 2013-03-03 22:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Thx for your replies. But most of them only commented the "you'll get ganked" issue. Yes we will get blobbed. But tbh..when flying BCs or ordinary t1 cruisers we get blobbed very often as well, I see no difference here.

The plan to use a carrier as flexible damage platform arose from the idea to actually be able to fight bigger blobs than usual (when flying sub capitals) in a small gang. So my question was more about practical issues - such as lock times or anything I'm not aware of.

Cage Man wrote:
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.


Exactly this was my thought as well. I considered them as big fat (expensive) BSs with tons of drones and fighters + additional utility for the gang. No triage, only 1 or 2 XL remote reps. Ship maintenance bay is the biggest advantage.

@Drake Doe: I don't see how it should be possible to remove a carriers DPS from the field. Please explain. A carrier can hold tons of ordinary drones as replacement. And if drones get shoot, no one shoots the carrier. Some kind of tank extension if you want. In case of ECM a carrier pilot can assign drone control to a gang member. Sub capital drone ships are considered as very flexible damage platform. Why not carriers?

Regarding pitiful sentry damage: how is 1000 DPS pitiful? Especially with the ability to switch to an endless stream of smaller drones against smaller or up-close targets. Again: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why?
yer mammy
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-03-03 23:28:15 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.



you are clueless.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#16 - 2013-03-03 23:33:48 UTC
yer mammy wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.



you are clueless.


errr explain how???
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-03-03 23:45:48 UTC
Don't confuse paper dps with actual damage.

Carrier as mobile dps support platform......well it's only mobile if you consider that it can jump pretty far. Once you jump into a system all that "mobile" in "mobile damage" platform goes away. If people don't like your dps, they just fly away. And you're sitting there.

One other thing, if you're not in a wormhole, you are and will be always in range of a titan..........and if you trow your carrier around, one of those titans might just do a drive by just for lols.
(guys who do that regularly have their own fanclub dedicated to catching them.)

So, unless you fly/sit with at least like 15 other carriers, slowcats. And are part of one of the major coaltions then forget it.

As a triage however, you can easily tip the scales of a battle and it can be very worthwhile to deploy and make your gang save the day. Eventually, just like every other ship you will lose it, but in the mean time you can have saved multitudes the cost of ships of buddies you saved.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#18 - 2013-03-04 01:57:43 UTC
Yes it can carry tons of drones but if just a few people web and paint them they're dead in seconds

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Dengen Krastinov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-03-04 02:08:24 UTC
I endorse this idea.
Denuo Secus
#20 - 2013-03-04 04:33:35 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Yes it can carry tons of drones but if just a few people web and paint them they're dead in seconds


Good point. Especially since carriers don't have drone HP bonus.
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