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Combat carriers in small gang PvP

Author
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#21 - 2013-03-04 05:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
You mentioned being blobbed when flying around in bc gangs, I don't think you understand what that refers to when we're talking about there being a cap on field. If you want something to let you hit above your weight class bring your bc gangs with guard/ aug support, or refit the lone carrier for triage. Someone brought this up about a week ago and everyone who explained this to him was told to shut up because they didn't understand he was thinking outside the box. We get it, it's how we get free cap kills.

That said, feel free to try it.

.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#22 - 2013-03-04 16:30:13 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
yer mammy wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.



you are clueless.


errr explain how???


you're a complete sitting duck. Your tank and reps will be weak because you decided to fit drone mods. Warping in at range will do absolutely nothing to prevent you from being tackled, as an interceptor can burn the distance and point you from outside neut range before you can target him. A single griffin or maulus is sufficient to jam you out or prevent you from locking things. You have to be able to lock things to direct your drones, and things can warp away with impunity if you ever get a lock on them, and they won't need to do that at all if they have any logi. Against multiple ships (it doesn't take many) a carrier has a lot of easily exploitable vulnerabilities, and cannot defend itself well. If your gang dies, you die, and you are not helping your gang very much. You become more of a tactical liability than an asset.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#23 - 2013-03-04 17:09:58 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
yer mammy wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.



you are clueless.


errr explain how???

Most people get a big fat stiffy from the thought of killing a carrier. Most won't go 10+ jumps to try and kill a t3, especially since once they're there, it's probably long gone. Someone shouts that they have a carrier tackled in system X, then every pilot within 15 jumps of X will start heading that way. T3s are good because they offer decent performance along with the ability to GTFO. You will lose your carrier a dozen times before a well flown T3 gets blapped.

It's also about KBs. The same reason that people love getting their name on a cap kill is one of the big reasons it's a bad idea to fly one. Your KD ratio on any killboard is going to be ****, and you're going to lose more isk than you kill.

And while we're here, lets look at the actual viability of a carrier, once you take out the triage:
1250 DPS on a thanny with perfect skills, golly gee that sure is swell, pity a blaster domi outDPSs it by a fairly wide margin, as do pretty much every gank fit BS in the game, while being more mobile, less expensive, and less of a blob magnet. Sure you get some range, but you're so slow, as are your fighters, that the actual applied DPS is going to be about the same anyway.
The ability to tank more incoming DPS is LESS valuable than the ability to mitigate it and/or GTFO when it gets to be too much, because eve is very much a numbers game, and as soon as someone realizes that they can't break your tank, they'll leave, and wont be back until they have enough people to do it (not that it takes much, I'd wager a single well flown neut domi could drop a carrier, albeit slowly)

This is, of course, not even counting dreads. If you or one of your friends has a decent dread skillset, hop on sisi and try your hand at brawling a carrier or 2. This was actually what got me to permanently shelve my thanny (which I once flew with perfect skills, though mainly for rep support), as I became very aware of the fact that the only thing that had been keeping me alive was the fact that I rarely agressed/didn't fight competent dread pilots. 2 well skilled dreads will drop you before you can de-agress and dock, maybe even 1 if you're in a non-triaged thanny.
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#24 - 2013-03-04 17:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
Cage Man wrote:
IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why?

The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.

-edit- Cambarus beat me to it, but yes, even with grid load and lock time, a well skilled lone moros can handily kill an agressed Thanny before it has time to deagress and dock.

.

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#25 - 2013-03-04 17:26:18 UTC
Cat Casidy wrote:

Cage Man wrote:
IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why?

The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.

I was on sisi a few months back, refit my moros from the tracking fit it had been using to just a straight lets-see-how-much-dps-I-can-churn-out fit.

This was the fit.

While not at all practical, it goes to show just how much DPS a dread can field( and holy **** was it fun to fly), and how easily dreads can (and will, because cap ships are a beacon for pirates) absolutely wreck your carrier time and time again. The tracking dread (which was armor tanked) version killed carriers quite well also, and could take on a carrier or 2 without actually hitting armor before they died (and this was a fit designed to blap smaller ships) so yeah, a combat carrier is going to get wrecked very, very quickly.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#26 - 2013-03-04 17:39:02 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Thx for your replies. But most of them only commented the "you'll get ganked" issue.


I'm sorry but that point really must be hammered home. We're not mean we are just gravely serious.

Ship size does not equal character level.

It's not like a frigate is level 5 while a Battleship is level 50 and a Carrier level 100. All ships are specialized and niched. There's no magic bullet ship in Eve. It's rock paper scissors and everything has a weakness.

A Carrier is formidable yes but it's a healer. In a gang it will drastically amplify that gangs capabilities through its massive RR support but alone the Carrier is vulnerable.


Even if you have a Triage module it's not like the attackers are in a hurry. Every second you're there just means more hostiles will arrive and once the neuts are there. Not even the Triage will hold. Time is on the attackers side.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#27 - 2013-03-04 17:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
Cambarus wrote:
Cat Casidy wrote:

Cage Man wrote:
IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why?

The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.

I was on sisi a few months back, refit my moros from the tracking fit it had been using to just a straight lets-see-how-much-dps-I-can-churn-out fit.

This was the fit.

While not at all practical, it goes to show just how much DPS a dread can field( and holy **** was it fun to fly), and how easily dreads can (and will, because cap ships are a beacon for pirates) absolutely wreck your carrier time and time again. The tracking dread (which was armor tanked) version killed carriers quite well also, and could take on a carrier or 2 without actually hitting armor before they died (and this was a fit designed to blap smaller ships) so yeah, a combat carrier is going to get wrecked very, very quickly.


While that's a goofy shield setup, the dps numbers aren't really that far off for a typical gank moros, your damage mods are all correct, usually closer to 16 -17k for most since the named guns are fairly pricey and not everyone chooses to run with them.

.

Tore Vest
#28 - 2013-03-04 18:13:48 UTC
I like the idea

No troll.

Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#29 - 2013-03-04 18:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Prekaz
Don't listen to these naysayers, OP. Most of these clowns are mindless adherents to whatever fleet doctrines their alliance overlords have hammered into their heads - corporate drones with no respect for the efficacy of outside-the-box thinking, which is exactly why a cunning strategy like this will catch them completely unaware.

Why stop at a carrier, though? Have you considered a supercarrier?
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#30 - 2013-03-04 18:31:31 UTC
Cat Casidy wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why?

The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.

-edit- Cambarus beat me to it, but yes, even with grid load and lock time, a well skilled lone moros can handily kill an agressed Thanny before it has time to deagress and dock.



You seem to have messed up your quote editing I didn't state the above. I realize all the pitfalls of a carrier.. and if you had seen what I said.. if I had enough isk to waste it would be fun to try.. would I loose it... hell yea.. but EVE is not about keeping your pixels as long as you possibly can, its about having fun.. I can bet PL and goons who drop cap's any chance they have don't care about loosing them as they can easily replace them... also dropping a lone capital on the field is not what I said.. so live a little..
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-03-04 18:34:34 UTC
OK give it a try and then get back to us.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#32 - 2013-03-04 18:41:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
OK give it a try and then get back to us.


Me poor so as said.. if I had the isk.. hell why not..... anyway look at some of the rooks and kings vid's and see what they can do with non triage carriers..
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#33 - 2013-03-04 18:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
You've clearly never met me, solo vindicators will catch on eventually and then I'll be seen as a visionary!

But yeah, this thread wasn't about who can throw away the most money in the name having a fun time, the Op wanted advice on the realities of dropping a solo non triage combat carrier for non exploding out of boredom reasons. The R&K vids are a great example of non traige carriers doing some great stuff, emphasis on the plural.



-edit- Cleaned up the qutoe blob

.

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#34 - 2013-03-04 21:16:47 UTC
Cat Casidy wrote:
You've clearly never met me, solo vindicators will catch on eventually and then I'll be seen as a visionary!

But yeah, this thread wasn't about who can throw away the most money in the name having a fun time, the Op wanted advice on the realities of dropping a solo non triage combat carrier for non exploding out of boredom reasons. The R&K vids are a great example of non traige carriers doing some great stuff, emphasis on the plural.



-edit- Cleaned up the qutoe blob

This. R&K does has done some pretty awesome things with multiple non-triaged carriers, or a single triage carrier, but not, at least as far as I know, anything with a single non-triage carrier.

Also confirming that throwing away isk at something because it's fun doesn't make it viable, and I can say that having thrown 10s of billions at fits just because they're funny/fun to fly, when I could have got similar performance for <1bil fits/ships.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-04 22:50:54 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.


In before hilarious fail fitted carrier loss.

No...what you are trying to do is not what a carrier is designed for.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#36 - 2013-03-05 11:58:32 UTC
TRIAGE is the word for carrier in small gang combat.

slowcats are only for big fleets.

Fighters? Dont know what they are for now. Sentries do similar damage without travel time.
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#37 - 2013-03-05 14:44:12 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.


This was fun up until about 2010, you won't get further than 2000m off the station these days without getting dropped by every douche and his dog
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-03-05 15:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Naween
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18326610 (EDIT> I am aware he was a moron and mining, but just wanted to stress that carriers die easy once cought.)

Sorry carriers are just so darn easy to kill even with subcaps.

Carriers are FANTASTIC when in triage, especially when you have more then one. Or if you spidertank, we use carriers all the time. But a lone or mostly alone carrier isnt even a threat.

Sure you have nice dps on paper and nice tank.. on paper. the dps is easy to mitigate. fighter dps is laughable against smaller targets, and if you start using sentries.. get a domi instead.

the fact that carriers are slow, takes aaaaaaages to lock anything when out of triage and very vulnerable to neuting pressure.

Sure you can hold a lot more drones then a domi, but so? You are just delaying the inevitable, soon the other sides cap pilots are logged in and then the moroses say hi.

Use the carriers for what they are fantastic at, run lvl 5s and rep stuff. Besides repping stuff is more fun then killing stuff anyway..
\
or at least I think so..

what? nooo wowbagger didnt force me to say that.. what? yes master.. comming in logi ship... dont hit the little gimp master..

^^

Linda
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#39 - 2013-03-07 05:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Lady Naween wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18326610 (EDIT> I am aware he was a moron and mining, but just wanted to stress that carriers die easy once cought.)

I see your lolmail and raise you this gem from the failheap excursion to the chinese server:
http://killboard.nl/en/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29803

Note that all of the characters involved had less than a million skillpoints at the time.

EDIT: Just copy the link rather than clicking it
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#40 - 2013-03-07 09:50:52 UTC
Combat carriers, I've been thinking about this quite a bit.

Only use I can think of that would work for small gang would be to reship on the fly.

Your gang is in frigs and dessies and you find a cruiser gang you could take on if only you had the ships? Let the targets see your fleet comp, move a few systems out. Jump a carrier in with reships and jump it out. Go pew target.

I can't think of a reason a logi ship that big would be useful for small gang warfare apart from that tbh. I want it to be useful, I'd love it but in truth it would just DIAF.

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