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Removal of Attributes: Inevitable?

First post
Author
Ashen Spiral
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-28 04:12:55 UTC
Relevant post from Jester's Trek: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/10/death-to-attributes.html

It's hard to think of any good reasons to keep attributes. It's an inevitable change, just like the removal of learning skills was. The only question is how much time will pass before a dev is allowed to address it.

If I recall correctly, after someone at CCP finally approved the removal of learning skills, it was implemented fairly quickly. Removing attributes seems like it would be even easier.

When do you think we'll see this change on Tranquility? Question
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-10-28 04:18:43 UTC
Hopefully never. i like it the way it is

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062

Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-28 04:23:26 UTC
Removal of attributes would remove some of the choices you have to make in training skills and how each attribute affects the time needed to train those skills., which really dumbs the game down. I don't see alot of people supporting something like this.
"If."
Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-28 04:23:59 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Hopefully never. i like it the way it is

Attributes are fundamental to the planning and restriction of players from progressing to quickly. It also helps regulate a players spending in skill points. Without this focus can you imagine how much worse the general players skill map would be?

Something clever

stoicfaux
#5 - 2011-10-28 04:25:18 UTC
Meh, the blog has some good points. Attributes really don't add a lot to the game in terms of variety, especially after the remaps, removal of learning skills, and the implementation of the simplified character creation.

I want to say that attributes should be kept, but I can't think of a good reason for the pro-attribute argument. Even the "Eve is about hard choices" argument feels pretty flat.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#6 - 2011-10-28 04:28:57 UTC
Removing attribs would be another step into making EvE easy, nice and accessible for people with an attention span even shorter than your average CCP Devs (or CCP Producer actually, sorry Devs).

In other words, a 5 YO with severe ADD, on speed.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-28 04:33:40 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Removing attribs would be another step into making EvE easy, nice and accessible for people with an attention span even shorter than your average CCP Devs (or CCP Producer actually, sorry Devs).

In other words, a 5 YO with severe ADD, on speed.


Thats probably the point of this whole thread.

It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change.
Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#8 - 2011-10-28 04:42:12 UTC
Jester writes some good stuff sometimes but he also overvalues both his own opinion and the weight that it carries quite frequently. Good traits for a blogger certainly, but not a game designer.
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#9 - 2011-10-28 04:44:56 UTC
Odd people are not opposed to this, when they're usually mordicus against 'PLEX for remap' ideas.

Personally, I think attributes should stay. At least with 'PLEX for remap' there's choices to be made how you min/max your, say, 2 remaps max a year. Without attributes, anything goes, without any planning or aforethought as to the consequences. I'm a carebear. I love EVE on easy-street. But this is making things a bit too easy, even for my taste.

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-10-28 04:47:51 UTC
Ranka Mei wrote:
Odd people are not opposed to this, when they're usually mordicus against 'PLEX for remap' ideas.

Personally, I think attributes should stay. At least with 'PLEX for remap' there's choices to be made how you min/max your, say, 2 remaps max a year. Without attributes, anything goes, without any planning or aforethought as to the consequences. I'm a carebear. I love EVE on easy-street. But this is making things a bit too easy, even for my taste.


Well its actually not an question about easy or hard. Honestly remap to your yearly plan, which you usually dont follow anyway, is not an rocket science.

Its more about nostalgia feelings etc. Something even when its useless is better to keep.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-10-28 04:52:16 UTC
I'm fine with removing attributes and attribute related implants. I don't know how many times I've heard people say "I'd love to come pewpew but I have +5s" or their jump clone without +5s is 40 jumps away or something. You'd see a *lot* more pewpew if people were freed from the shackles of learning implants.
Hershman
Creepers Corporation
#12 - 2011-10-28 04:54:15 UTC
Attributes are fine. No reason to remove them.

I play EVE every day! Follow me at http://www.twitch.tv/matthershman

Hershman
Creepers Corporation
#13 - 2011-10-28 04:54:37 UTC
Attributes are fine. No reason to remove them.

I play EVE every day! Follow me at http://www.twitch.tv/matthershman

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#14 - 2011-10-28 04:54:46 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
Removing attribs would be another step into making EvE easy, nice and accessible for people with an attention span even shorter than your average CCP Devs (or CCP Producer actually, sorry Devs).

In other words, a 5 YO with severe ADD, on speed.


Thats probably the point of this whole thread.

It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change.

One remap a year is nice, being able to stack remaps when they show up is nice.

I like the error/warning in EvEMon if you ask for optimise and it complains that selected plan is less than 365 days ...

And if it's inevitable or not depends on the player base.

EvE will not, ever, have an super influx of hungry gamers, it's simply the wrong game.

EvE will continue to trundle on, grabbing enough cash from people who more than well afford it, and continue to be a thorn in the eye of kids (as in < 30) all over the planet.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Sturmwolke
#15 - 2011-10-28 04:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
I don't really agree with the removal.
You need them to make these choices :

a) Bonus implant (Slaves set etc) gives you massive bonuses.
b) Attribute implants gives you increased learning speed.

You cannot have a cake and eat it.
Either choose a) or b).

Doing away with the above choices will have everyone and their dogs going for a).
It will favour PVP characters heavily, but non-PVP science & industry characters will be at a great disadvantage.
You'd be effectively removing the distinctions between these professions, further homogenizing the gameplay - making it more bland.

Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed?

P.S This is another Malcanis's Law in the making.
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#16 - 2011-10-28 04:58:57 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

Well its actually not an question about easy or hard. Honestly remap to your yearly plan, which you usually dont follow anyway, is not an rocket science.

Its more about nostalgia feelings etc. Something even when its useless is better to keep.

If remaps were allowed without limit, allowing so would, effectively, be tantamount to removing attributes altogether; hence, in most proposals I've read (and one I wrote) the yearly number of allowed remaps is always capped. Yet at least with a cap on them, you still have to have basic understanding of what skills affect what attributes, so you can plan ahead for those, say, 2 remaps a year. Lose the attributes in their entirety, and people wouldn't even have to know anymore what skill affects what attributes. That seems pretty lame. And the result is that it would make the game less immersive.

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-10-28 04:59:48 UTC
Well yes,

I just remember when i created myself Big smile i did all the choices in regards of some "RP" background

aka pure perception and willpower .. mainly for gunnery and ships

Sure remaps are convenient, removing learning skills and others are convenient too ..

It was hell to train basic engineering and mechanic stuff at the time

From the time when the choice mattered than it changed, dont know why since i never visited forums at those times.
Ashen Spiral
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-10-28 05:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashen Spiral
I remember the same arguments about "making EVE too easy" or "dumbing it down" when learning skills were being removed. The bottom line is that extra difficulty is supposed to make the game more fun. Learning skills didn't do that, and neither do attributes, at least in my humble opinion. I get the impression that the devs would agree, given that the issue is so similar to the removal of learning skills.

Sturmwolke wrote:

Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed?

The removal of attribute implants would not be necessary for this change. Just assume all characters have an even set of base attributes, and attribute implants would add to that base value as normal. People would still need to make the same choices they always have as far as implants go.
stoicfaux
#19 - 2011-10-28 05:06:43 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change.


Or we sucker-punch the inevitable and replace attributes with something that actually builds character, pun intended.

Currently attributes are just about training time, aka skill points per hour. Attributes don't have an impact on how well your character does something. Attributes don't define who your character is or what your character can or can't do. Technically, all characters are generalists because we can remap every year to optimize our training time.

Replacing attributes with a perk system would probably be a swell idea. Every X million skill points you can pick a perk that improves a specific aspect of the game. If you're a combat toon, then your ship is a bit more agile and your guns track a bit better. A manufacturing perk gives you a minor bonus to PE/ME. A charisma/leadership perk means you can add a few more members to your fleet, and so on.

Heck, they could even be temporary perks. Since skilling something to V can take a while, let perks simply provide a decent bonus that is reduced as you train the skill up. Ex: a projectile damage perk would provide a sizable bonus if you had small projectile guns at II, but the bonus would fade to nothing once you got the skill to V.

Heck^2, skill implants are essentially perks. But as Jada Maroo pointed out, they can be expensive to lose. A perk system could be implemented using the implant system with the caveat that you don't lose the perk when you're podded. Respecing your perks could be done, but it would be costly. In theory, the code mechanics are already in place and it would be "easy" (ha!) to implement.

Also, the whole certificate system just screams "I want a perk system but CCP couldn't be bothered to take certificates to their logical conclusion." If you gain a combat cert, you get a combat perk (or points towards purchasing a combat perk.) It would reward folks who focus, while still giving people the ability to change their career path without them feeling gimped.

Long story short, attributes have that grindy-is-bad feeling because they only affect training speed. Perks would actually let you customize your character for specific roles.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
#20 - 2011-10-28 05:15:03 UTC
Funny...

I asked the same question right after they removed Learning Skills (Which I have yet to see the fantastic results of improved gameplay, increased recruitment of new player and whatever else most people talking about at the time).

The result of the LS removal paved way for a much quicker path for alts/bots to get in action which in turn might have helped subscritions but certainly not the new recruitment which CCP was led to believe.

Basically I don't see the point of attributes as they add nothing to the game(tm) and anyone who find their game becomming immensly more deep and complex due to attributes should do them selves a favour and put themselves out of their missery sooner rather then later.

If Attributes are to remain, I would personally like to see the re-instatement of learning skills (OH NOES, HE DIDN'T?)... Why??? well when someone gets banned it should fricking hurt and not be 2 weeks to get back on their feet violating the EULA again as nothing ever happened.

TLDR:
Get rid of attribs or reinstate learning.
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