Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Relevant post from Jester's Trek: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/10/death-to-attributes.html

It's hard to think of any good reasons to keep attributes. It's an inevitable change, just like the removal of learning skills was. The only question is how much time will pass before a dev is allowed to address it.

If I recall correctly, after someone at CCP finally approved the removal of learning skills, it was implemented fairly quickly. Removing attributes seems like it would be even easier.

When do you think we'll see this change on Tranquility?

Removal of attributes would remove some of the choices you have to make in training skills and how each attribute affects the time needed to train those skills., which really dumbs the game down. I don't see alot of people supporting something like this.

Meh, the blog has some good points. Attributes really don't add a lot to the game in terms of variety, especially after the remaps, removal of learning skills, and the implementation of the simplified character creation.

I want to say that attributes should be kept, but I can't think of a good reason for the pro-attribute argument. Even the "Eve is about hard choices" argument feels pretty flat.

Thats probably the point of this whole thread.

It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change.

Odd people are not opposed to this, when they're usually mordicus against 'PLEX for remap' ideas.

Personally, I think attributes should stay. At least with 'PLEX for remap' there's choices to be made how you min/max your, say, 2 remaps max a year. Without attributes, anything goes, without any planning or aforethought as to the consequences. I'm a carebear. I love EVE on easy-street. But this is making things a bit too easy, even for my taste.

I'm fine with removing attributes and attribute related implants. I don't know how many times I've heard people say "I'd love to come pewpew but I have +5s" or their jump clone without +5s is 40 jumps away or something. You'd see a *lot* more pewpew if people were freed from the shackles of learning implants.

Attributes are fine. No reason to remove them.

I don't really agree with the removal.
You need them to make these choices :

a) Bonus implant (Slaves set etc) gives you massive bonuses.
b) Attribute implants gives you increased learning speed.

You cannot have a cake and eat it.
Either choose a) or b).

Doing away with the above choices will have everyone and their dogs going for a).
It will favour PVP characters heavily, but non-PVP science & industry characters will be at a great disadvantage.
You'd be effectively removing the distinctions between these professions, further homogenizing the gameplay - making it more bland.

Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed?

P.S This is another Malcanis's Law in the making.

Well yes,

I just remember when i created myself i did all the choices in regards of some "RP" background

aka pure perception and willpower .. mainly for gunnery and ships

Sure remaps are convenient, removing learning skills and others are convenient too ..

It was hell to train basic engineering and mechanic stuff at the time

From the time when the choice mattered than it changed, dont know why since i never visited forums at those times.

Or we sucker-punch the inevitable and replace attributes with something that actually builds character, pun intended.

Currently attributes are just about training time, aka skill points per hour. Attributes don't have an impact on how well your character does something. Attributes don't define who your character is or what your character can or can't do. Technically, all characters are generalists because we can remap every year to optimize our training time.

Replacing attributes with a perk system would probably be a swell idea. Every X million skill points you can pick a perk that improves a specific aspect of the game. If you're a combat toon, then your ship is a bit more agile and your guns track a bit better. A manufacturing perk gives you a minor bonus to PE/ME. A charisma/leadership perk means you can add a few more members to your fleet, and so on.

Heck, they could even be temporary perks. Since skilling something to V can take a while, let perks simply provide a decent bonus that is reduced as you train the skill up. Ex: a projectile damage perk would provide a sizable bonus if you had small projectile guns at II, but the bonus would fade to nothing once you got the skill to V.

Heck^2, skill implants are essentially perks. But as Jada Maroo pointed out, they can be expensive to lose. A perk system could be implemented using the implant system with the caveat that you don't lose the perk when you're podded. Respecing your perks could be done, but it would be costly. In theory, the code mechanics are already in place and it would be "easy" (ha!) to implement.

Also, the whole certificate system just screams "I want a perk system but CCP couldn't be bothered to take certificates to their logical conclusion." If you gain a combat cert, you get a combat perk (or points towards purchasing a combat perk.) It would reward folks who focus, while still giving people the ability to change their career path without them feeling gimped.

Long story short, attributes have that grindy-is-bad feeling because they only affect training speed. Perks would actually let you customize your character for specific roles.