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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

First post First post
Author
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#221 - 2013-02-23 05:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Aren Madigan wrote:


Maybe quit lumping high sec people into one lump and then speak. High sec isn't a hive mind. Different people in high sec have different viewpoints. I'd sooner keep my battlecruiser in sniper mode prepared to destroy any gankers rather than complain about bumpers for example. Really, its not worth arguing with someone who treats a group of players like a hive mind and blames them for other people's actions. I don't even care about any points you might have anymore because really now all I see is an extremist. And that's my big problem with these forums. Instead of arguing the points and explaining, its usually boils down to attacking someone's gameplay style, someone's corp, or some other stupid bullshit and treating people like children, shouting "you wouldn't understand". In all blunt honesty, they really should be temp banning people for that crap. Its pretty much the bane of conversation, turning whatever might have been there into a flame war.



I'm not generalizing all high seccers I'm refering only to you guys that respond in threads like these and tell me that everything is fine; when you've never built a ******* thing in null sec.

One of you even had the nerve to make a comment about "oh sorry but all those skillpoints and time you spent are now useless." That's what is happening to me!!!!!

A single ******* market in the game is practically making all my SP and time spent getting them pointless.
If I wanted to sell **** at jita prices I would be doing it in jita, not 29 jumps from jita!

You guys know goddamned well that if you were forced to sell **** at jita prices in markets outside jita you'd be right here with me demanding something be done.

And do not tell me that you already do, I know that's a ******* lie, I've been doing high sec industry for like 7 years now. I am not new at this. I do not sell a single thing in a market in high sec at jita prices, I get better prices then I get in null because in null I'm forced to sell **** at jita prices.

The only reason I continue to build in null is because I like it here, and I have almost 20m skill points in nothing but industry and related skills. I do not have skills in combat or exploratioin, I can not just jump into another area of EVE with this guy without spending a couple of months skilling up to do something I don't want to do.



How the hell would you know if there was a problem, when you've never built anything in null sec.
Coinsidentally, pretty much everyone that has agrees with me. My god, I wonder why that would be.
No one is on the forums saying they're a null sec industrialist and everything is fine, only you guys in high sec that have never done industry outside of high sec.

Please, tell me some more about **** you have no experience with.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#222 - 2013-02-23 05:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: EI Digin
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Argh! My scenario also stated this would happen with the removal of hi-sec.

What do you think will happen to mission runners without hi-sec?

Do you think they will be able to fly unmolested?

I do believe they would suffer some ship losses if concord was no longer around to help them.

Because the cost of goods would be high, the manufacturers and miners and mission runners would have enough ISK to pay for people to defend them. It would become profitable to run merc corps and to defend your corner of space rather than let people roam all over it. PVPers would rather be making money to pay for all of the ships they lose than rolling around starting grudges that might come back to bite them. Being a sociopath would be a bad thing because everyone would be out trying to kill you, to prevent you from getting at their income sources.

It also means that you can cause real damage to people you don't like, or people who are interfering with your isk source through market PVP. Suddenly you can start a grudge by killing some guy's mining op, instead of having to gather 250 dudes to shoot someone's tech moon.

The PVP food chain really is a great thing. It's a shame that the core producers that feed upon plankton have become invincible, killing off everyone who feed on them. It would be really neat if highsec was completely removed, but I think that highsec as a concept should exist for newer players and for players who have been effectively shut out of the game (get kicked out of their corps/space) and need to rebuild. It would also make a lot of people angry for no good reason.
Alavaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2013-02-23 05:42:56 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
How the hell would you know if there was a problem, when you've never built anything in null sec.
Coinsidentally, pretty much everyone that has agrees with me. My god, I wonder why that would be.
No one is on the forums saying they're a null sec industrialist and everything is fine, only you guys in high sec that have never done industry outside of high sec.

Please, tell me some more about **** you have no experience with.

I hear you love shooting structures.

Loyalty is a virtue, participation brings reward.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#224 - 2013-02-23 05:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:


Maybe quit lumping high sec people into one lump and then speak. High sec isn't a hive mind. Different people in high sec have different viewpoints. I'd sooner keep my battlecruiser in sniper mode prepared to destroy any gankers rather than complain about bumpers for example. Really, its not worth arguing with someone who treats a group of players like a hive mind and blames them for other people's actions. I don't even care about any points you might have anymore because really now all I see is an extremist. And that's my big problem with these forums. Instead of arguing the points and explaining, its usually boils down to attacking someone's gameplay style, someone's corp, or some other stupid bullshit and treating people like children, shouting "you wouldn't understand". In all blunt honesty, they really should be temp banning people for that crap. Its pretty much the bane of conversation, turning whatever might have been there into a flame war.



I'm not generalizing all high seccers I'm refering only to you guys that respond in threads like these and tell me that everything is fine; when you've never built a ******* thing in null sec.

One of you even had the nerve to make a comment about "oh sorry but all those skillpoints and time you spent are now useless." That's what is happening to me!!!!!

A single ******* market in the game is practically making all my SP and time spent getting them pointless.
If I wanted to sell **** at jita prices I would be doing it in jita, not 29 jumps from jita!

You guys know goddamned well that if you were forced to sell **** at jita prices in markets outside jita you'd be right here with me demanding something be done.

And do not tell me that you already do, I know that's a ******* lie, I've been doing high sec industry for like 7 years now. I am not new at this. I do not sell a single thing in a market in high sec at jita prices, I get better prices then I get in null because in null I'm forced to sell **** at jita prices.

The only reason I continue to build in null is because I like it here, and I have almost 20m skill points in nothing but industry and related skills. I do not have skills in combat or exploratioin, I can not just jump into another area of EVE with this guy without spending a couple of months skilling up to do something I don't want to do.



How the hell would you know if there was a problem, when you've never built anything in null sec.
Coinsidentally, pretty much everyone that has agrees with me. My god, I wonder why that would be.
No one is on the forums saying they're a null sec industrialist and everything is fine, only you guys in high sec that have never done industry outside of high sec.

Please, tell me some more about **** you have no experience with.


I'm just saying you are just as bad as miners and frieghter pilots complaining when they get ganked.

You are mad because you don't think the game suits you and you are showing the tears from where all the hi-secers had their way with you.

And then you make a show of how better you are than the other side and that you deserve better treatment because you had years of gameplay experience in the subject matter. Oh lordy... I think I have to call myself a hypocrit and say that is "Entitlement"

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2013-02-23 05:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
blah once more


And yet never did I say everything was fine, I just disagreed with the solution, so maybe quit being so damned hostile. Also there's this word call empathy... you know.. sort of this skill some people have to try and understand another person's viewpoint without maybe experiencing it themselves.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-02-23 05:58:52 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
blah once more


And yet never did I say everything was fine, I just disagreed with the solution, so maybe quit being so damned hostile. Also there's this word call empathy... you know.. sort of this skill some people have to try and understand another person's viewpoint without maybe experiencing it themselves.


Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#227 - 2013-02-23 06:04:55 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
blah once more


And yet never did I say everything was fine, I just disagreed with the solution, so maybe quit being so damned hostile. Also there's this word call empathy... you know.. sort of this skill some people have to try and understand another person's viewpoint without maybe experiencing it themselves.


Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.




Waaaah! The game is too hard CCP! Waaaah! I don't make enough isk! Waaah! Change the game CCP damnit or I'll quit! Waaaah! I deserve better treatment than those other players! Waaah!

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#228 - 2013-02-23 06:07:42 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


I'm just saying you are just as bad as miners and frieghter pilots complaining when they get ganked.

You are mad because you don't think the game suits you and you are showing the tears from where all the hi-secers had their way with you.

And then you make a show of how better you are than the other side and that you deserve better treatment because you had years of gameplay experience in the subject matter. Oh lordy... I think I have to call myself a hypocrit and say that is "Entitlement"

Getting ganked doesn't make all your SP in mining or piloting skills pointless.

The guys that cry about ganking want something others DON'T have.

I'm asking for something every other industialist already has.


But in typical fashion, as it goes with every one of these threads, I tell you exactly how something works and you guys ignore it and find unrelated excuses.

I have an issue with something that's causing an imbalance and undermining an entire playstyle. But you guys don't give a ****, it's not your playstyle, why should you give a **** that building in null sec is pretty much pointless for me because of jita prices.

Why would I wait several days for a production job to finish, when I can import more of that same item, for what it costs me to build, in less then 24 hours.

It's all good as long as it's not effecting you, and you it's your ****, produced 3 jumps from jita, being sold in jita, in bulk, and shipped to null. Well, as long as there's an NPC corp for you to fall back on to avoid war decs or move goods during a war for you; so that there isn't **** I can do about it.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#229 - 2013-02-23 06:08:24 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
blah once more


And yet never did I say everything was fine, I just disagreed with the solution, so maybe quit being so damned hostile. Also there's this word call empathy... you know.. sort of this skill some people have to try and understand another person's viewpoint without maybe experiencing it themselves.


Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.




Waaaah! The game is too hard CCP! Waaaah! I don't make enough isk! Waaah! Change the game CCP damnit or I'll quit! Waaaah! I deserve better treatment than those other players! Waaah!

Keep proving my point guy. You're doing a good job of showing you really know what you're talking about.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2013-02-23 06:09:50 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
blah once more


And yet never did I say everything was fine, I just disagreed with the solution, so maybe quit being so damned hostile. Also there's this word call empathy... you know.. sort of this skill some people have to try and understand another person's viewpoint without maybe experiencing it themselves.


Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.




Mineral amounts from ores can and have been adjusted, and to change things towards improving null sec, you gotta influence people's state of mind. As I said previously, they COULD enable "better than perfect" or to make it seem less stupid, adjust it with a lower cap for high sec while still maintaining how much you get currently and adjust it slowly to see the results. Really when it comes down to it, to change people's mindsets to create what you want, either have to offer a carrot or break something. I personally think this is more a situation for a carrot but you seem to be under the impression that things that can be changed somehow can't despite it being incredibly easy.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#231 - 2013-02-23 06:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
blah once more


And yet never did I say everything was fine, I just disagreed with the solution, so maybe quit being so damned hostile. Also there's this word call empathy... you know.. sort of this skill some people have to try and understand another person's viewpoint without maybe experiencing it themselves.


Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.




Waaaah! The game is too hard CCP! Waaaah! I don't make enough isk! Waaah! Change the game CCP damnit or I'll quit! Waaaah! I deserve better treatment than those other players! Waaah!

Keep proving my point guy. You're doing a good job of showing you really know what you're talking about.


I'm sorry your point was that you feel that the game is too hard for you. Maybe you should play some Star Trek Online where your income is basically guaranteed regardless of what you do.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#232 - 2013-02-23 06:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
Greetings

I have locked this post because it is sliding into gratuitous use of pyramid posting which is against forum rules and is taking on the aspects of a rant. It is also possible that we have forgotten the original post after 231 back and forth post. Let us step back, take a breath and come back in 24 hours.

ISD Flidais Asagiri Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#233 - 2013-02-24 06:29:04 UTC
Heyo.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2013-02-24 06:56:29 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
As for your argument, hm, that's an open-ended statement. This whole thread is about nullsec industrialists being 'pushed' by game mechanics to do something they don't want to do (base their industry in highsec), after all.


Which is a big part of why I say there should be changes, but I don't agree with many of the suggested ways. Its not unreasonable to expect bonuses for everything you do in nullsec and lowsec. There is increased risk afterall. Seems that really only applies to being able to get T2 materials in the first place, exploration, and a slight bit of missioning though. I support encouraging additional risk, but not breaking what's already there, even if that means say null sec was given the ability to surpass 100% refines somehow, or minerals from ores were adjusted along with a perfect refine change that perhaps capped high sec refines and such, balances where the average null sec person might end up making the same, but the extraordinary, smart, or protected would be able to get through with higher profits, and at a steady change to see if such a change really would encourage people to move out that way or not and adjusting for increased piracy. That way the only real change is that potential profits are much greater in null sec in all things, but everything else is largely left intact.

Wouldn't be against giving null sec the tools to set up their own protected trading post either, though that would likely prove more complicated that I could imagine.

Well, 'surpassing 100% refines' creates game balances with things like module reprocessing - a perpetual mineral generating machine. Not particularly advisable when one could just somewhat lower highsec refining and manufacturing capacity to something below 100% perfection. It doesn't particularly harm highseccers because decreased supply of minerals simply mean that increased prices are passed along to the buyers who are primarily null and low pilots. As for manufacturing, I'm something of a cynic and feel that the level of safety granted by CONCORD and NPC stations is so beneficial that no reasonable level of tariff or additional fees topped onto highsec manufacturing (as suggested by some) is going to stop other regions from outsourcing their industry to hisec, and that the only lasting solution is to simply make it impossible to outsource all of EVE's industrial needs there by balancing highsec's industrial capacity (not efficiency) around highsec's ships/good consumption rate.

Fixing nullsec industry has 3 separate, fundamental problems with it which need to be fixed before industry in 0.0 become viable.

- The base building material for nearly all goods (low-end mins) is obtained in greater supply (highsec roids last longer) with greater ease and efficiency in highsec. Native industry can't grow if people aren't gathering resources to feed it.
- Nullsec manufacturing capacity is comically low, with entire regions with hundreds of billions invested in infrastructure being unable to handle the workload of lone highsec systems.
- If nullsec manufacturing was made abundant & perfect, highsec manufacturing would continue to also be abundant & perfect with a side bonus of unconquerable stations, free and protected by CONCORD, lacking incentive for industrialists to use 0.0 space.



- Fixing the first would involve something CSM Candidate Mynna terms 'Super-Veld', replacing one of the useless nullsec ores less valuable then scordite with a roid that simply yields more low-end mins then the highsec options. Added incentive, nothing taken away from highsec.

- Fixing the second would likely involve a POS overhaul (which would benefit everyone) and a revamp of nullsec player-owned stations and what they are capable of. Again, nothing objectionable there, right?

- The third would be a sensible nerf of the capacity and efficiency of NPC highsec stations to make operating as a builder out of null or wherever an economically alluring option. This is where discussions tend to break down into hyper-defensiveness.


As for trade hubs, let's break into some actual discussion of economics here (not 'daah if mining is more profitable then missioning den da missioners will quit') and bring in this description of economic sectors. As it stands, 0.0 (and wormholes) are locked via game mechanics to a Primary-based economy - generating income is based around gathering resources from the environment, whether highend mins or raw ISK. Here's a long post of mine explaining why a primary resource-based 0.0 is outdated and should be corrected.

Hardcoded game mechanics ensure that the secondary economy (and much of the primary) is exclusively in highsec, and so it follows that the tertiary industry (retailing/wholesaling) emerged entirely in highsec as well. Talk of making trade hubs in 0.0 have been attempted for years and years, nearly all of them failing. CFC's VFK-IV might be a tempting example, but I'm more of the opinion that's more a cunning, costly effort of Goonswarm's financial directorate to exchange ISK for membership participation then anything approaching 'natural'.

Correcting nullsec industry would cause all sorts of social and metagame upheaval in EVE, including the likely emergence of true 0.0 trade hubs.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#235 - 2013-02-24 06:58:43 UTC
ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:
Greetings

I have locked this post because it is sliding into gratuitous use of pyramid posting which is against forum rules and is taking on the aspects of a rant. It is also possible that we have forgotten the original post after 231 back and forth post. Let us step back, take a breath and come back in 24 hours.


When it stops being extra steps to not pyramid post, we'll stop doing it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2013-02-24 07:00:00 UTC
The **** does pyramid posting even mean?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#237 - 2013-02-24 07:02:43 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The **** does pyramid posting even mean?


Quoting.... I guess...

This is literally the first time I've seen someone try to enforce the rule.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-02-24 07:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
I'm just going to assume the ISD doesn't know what pyramid quoting is.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2013-02-24 07:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Well well... nice to actually finally see a good post from you Nicolo. I'm still not entirely convinced nerfing high sec is the answer and that really should be more about increasing potential reward for risk first before thinking about any nerfs since really, but I kind of see what you're getting at. Frankly I'd also state that it'd be absolutely VITAL to provide proper introduction to null sec before nerfing anything in that way, but overall, can't really argue with much else with what you said, it really seems pretty solid from my limited knowledge, so if there is a problem with it, I'll leave it to more experienced minds to discuss.


EDIT: I think there were a few too many stacking quotes for the ISD's liking mostly.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#240 - 2013-02-24 07:42:21 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
I'm still not entirely convinced nerfing high sec is the answer and that really should be more about increasing potential reward for risk first before thinking about any nerfs since really


How? How do you propose to make Nullsec competitive with HS when HS is literally perfect for industry?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon