EVE General Discussion

Because the cost of goods would be high, the manufacturers and miners and mission runners would have enough ISK to pay for people to defend them. It would become profitable to run merc corps and to defend your corner of space rather than let people roam all over it. PVPers would rather be making money to pay for all of the ships they lose than rolling around starting grudges that might come back to bite them. Being a sociopath would be a bad thing because everyone would be out trying to kill you, to prevent you from getting at their income sources.

It also means that you can cause real damage to people you don't like, or people who are interfering with your isk source through market PVP. Suddenly you can start a grudge by killing some guy's mining op, instead of having to gather 250 dudes to shoot someone's tech moon.

The PVP food chain really is a great thing. It's a shame that the core producers that feed upon plankton have become invincible, killing off everyone who feed on them. It would be really neat if highsec was completely removed, but I think that highsec as a concept should exist for newer players and for players who have been effectively shut out of the game (get kicked out of their corps/space) and need to rebuild. It would also make a lot of people angry for no good reason.

I'm just saying you are just as bad as miners and frieghter pilots complaining when they get ganked.

You are mad because you don't think the game suits you and you are showing the tears from where all the hi-secers had their way with you.

And then you make a show of how better you are than the other side and that you deserve better treatment because you had years of gameplay experience in the subject matter. Oh lordy... I think I have to call myself a hypocrit and say that is "Entitlement"

Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.

Getting ganked doesn't make all your SP in mining or piloting skills pointless.

The guys that cry about ganking want something others DON'T have.

I'm asking for something every other industialist already has.


But in typical fashion, as it goes with every one of these threads, I tell you exactly how something works and you guys ignore it and find unrelated excuses.

I have an issue with something that's causing an imbalance and undermining an entire playstyle. But you guys don't give a ****, it's not your playstyle, why should you give a **** that building in null sec is pretty much pointless for me because of jita prices.

Why would I wait several days for a production job to finish, when I can import more of that same item, for what it costs me to build, in less then 24 hours.

It's all good as long as it's not effecting you, and you it's your ****, produced 3 jumps from jita, being sold in jita, in bulk, and shipped to null. Well, as long as there's an NPC corp for you to fall back on to avoid war decs or move goods during a war for you; so that there isn't **** I can do about it.

Mineral amounts from ores can and have been adjusted, and to change things towards improving null sec, you gotta influence people's state of mind. As I said previously, they COULD enable "better than perfect" or to make it seem less stupid, adjust it with a lower cap for high sec while still maintaining how much you get currently and adjust it slowly to see the results. Really when it comes down to it, to change people's mindsets to create what you want, either have to offer a carrot or break something. I personally think this is more a situation for a carrot but you seem to be under the impression that things that can be changed somehow can't despite it being incredibly easy.

Greetings

I have locked this post because it is sliding into gratuitous use of pyramid posting which is against forum rules and is taking on the aspects of a rant. It is also possible that we have forgotten the original post after 231 back and forth post. Let us step back, take a breath and come back in 24 hours.

Well, 'surpassing 100% refines' creates game balances with things like module reprocessing - a perpetual mineral generating machine. Not particularly advisable when one could just somewhat lower highsec refining and manufacturing capacity to something below 100% perfection. It doesn't particularly harm highseccers because decreased supply of minerals simply mean that increased prices are passed along to the buyers who are primarily null and low pilots. As for manufacturing, I'm something of a cynic and feel that the level of safety granted by CONCORD and NPC stations is so beneficial that no reasonable level of tariff or additional fees topped onto highsec manufacturing (as suggested by some) is going to stop other regions from outsourcing their industry to hisec, and that the only lasting solution is to simply make it impossible to outsource all of EVE's industrial needs there by balancing highsec's industrial capacity (not efficiency) around highsec's ships/good consumption rate.

Fixing nullsec industry has 3 separate, fundamental problems with it which need to be fixed before industry in 0.0 become viable.

- The base building material for nearly all goods (low-end mins) is obtained in greater supply (highsec roids last longer) with greater ease and efficiency in highsec. Native industry can't grow if people aren't gathering resources to feed it.
- Nullsec manufacturing capacity is comically low, with entire regions with hundreds of billions invested in infrastructure being unable to handle the workload of lone highsec systems.
- If nullsec manufacturing was made abundant & perfect, highsec manufacturing would continue to also be abundant & perfect with a side bonus of unconquerable stations, free and protected by CONCORD, lacking incentive for industrialists to use 0.0 space.



- Fixing the first would involve something CSM Candidate Mynna terms 'Super-Veld', replacing one of the useless nullsec ores less valuable then scordite with a roid that simply yields more low-end mins then the highsec options. Added incentive, nothing taken away from highsec.

- Fixing the second would likely involve a POS overhaul (which would benefit everyone) and a revamp of nullsec player-owned stations and what they are capable of. Again, nothing objectionable there, right?

- The third would be a sensible nerf of the capacity and efficiency of NPC highsec stations to make operating as a builder out of null or wherever an economically alluring option. This is where discussions tend to break down into hyper-defensiveness.


As for trade hubs, let's break into some actual discussion of economics here (not 'daah if mining is more profitable then missioning den da missioners will quit') and bring in this description of economic sectors. As it stands, 0.0 (and wormholes) are locked via game mechanics to a Primary-based economy - generating income is based around gathering resources from the environment, whether highend mins or raw ISK. Here's a long post of mine explaining why a primary resource-based 0.0 is outdated and should be corrected.

Hardcoded game mechanics ensure that the secondary economy (and much of the primary) is exclusively in highsec, and so it follows that the tertiary industry (retailing/wholesaling) emerged entirely in highsec as well. Talk of making trade hubs in 0.0 have been attempted for years and years, nearly all of them failing. CFC's VFK-IV might be a tempting example, but I'm more of the opinion that's more a cunning, costly effort of Goonswarm's financial directorate to exchange ISK for membership participation then anything approaching 'natural'.

Correcting nullsec industry would cause all sorts of social and metagame upheaval in EVE, including the likely emergence of true 0.0 trade hubs.

The **** does pyramid posting even mean?

I'm just going to assume the ISD doesn't know what pyramid quoting is.

How? How do you propose to make Nullsec competitive with HS when HS is literally perfect for industry?