Ships & Modules

You forgot the drones. Harbinger's drone bay dig the gap betwen the two.

Hmmm. It looks like the Cyclone is pretty consistently able to do it in basically any configuration. It makes the trade off of being much more vulnerable to high DPS vs focus fire though. Here's one fit that can do it, after I deliberately stacked the comparison in favor of the Drake:

[Cyclone, XL Active Tank]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hammerhead II x5

Cyclone EHP towards Drake: 37673 + 1082 * (4.25*9) = 79059 + Recharge
Drake's EHP towards Cyclone: 65362 + Recharge

Drake DPS: 818/60 sec + 707
Cyclone DPS: 705/60 sec + 623

Drake TTL = 97 sec
Cyclone TTL = 102 sec

-Liang

Ed: Stacking a second invuln as you'd tend to do on an ASB fit makes the comparison kinda laughable. Running dual ASB does as well. EM/Thm/Kin layout on your rigs does as well. Anyway. You get the picture. The Cyclone can brawl down the Drake.

Let us examine the case of the dual rep Brutix vs the Drake. The Brutix begins the fight with 40520 EHP. It takes the Drake 10 seconds to go through the Brutix's armor, leaving it with 32,187 EHP. For the next 50 seconds, the Drake "can" overheat its launchers and will deal 3840 EHP worth of EHP. This leaves the Brutix with 28,347 EHP when the Drake can no longer overheat.

If the Brutix reloads the AAR, it wills till tank 287 DPS until the AAR comes back up. That means the Drake effectively deals 707-287 = 420 DPS for 60 seconds. This leaves the Brutix with 3147 EHP (in hull) when the AAR finishes reloading, and the AAR will not complete its cycle before the Brutix dies. The end, after 60+60+4 = 124 seconds.

If the Brutix does not reload the AAR, it will tank 448 DPS for another 70 seconds and then drop down to 360 DPS tanked. This means the Drake will deal 70 seconds of 707-448=259 DPS for 70 seconds and then 347 DPS from then on. So how long does the Brutix hold out? Well, I'm glad you asked. 259 DPS * 70 sec = 18130 damage, leaving the Brutix edging into hull between rep cycles. It's still got ~10217 EHP left though, and it'll take another 30 seconds to go down (this will be less because the Drake will deal 5656 damage between rep cycles).

SO, what's all that mean in the end? Has the Brutix just been sitting there eating Rage HAM for 160 seconds? Well, no. Actually it dished out 65208 damage in the first 78 seconds of the fight, leaving the Drake with 27974 EHP + leaving the Drake at about 15-20% shields (we'll assume Really Great Things about its recharge rate, just to be "fair"). It'll take another 40 or so seconds to die somewhere between T115 and T120 seconds, depending on how well recharge did.

So where was the Brutix at T=120 seconds? It's at low armor. That means the Brutix has forty seconds to catch up to the Drake and start applying DPS.

Don't get me wrong - the Drake is still super strong. But, it's not invincible like is being presented here.

Here's the Brutix fit, for reference:

[Brutix, Dual Rep]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5


-Liang

Responded to Liang on the other thread, as this thread was primarily directed at the Hurricane's shortcomings and evolved into Drake discussion.....but after getting some sleep, looking at active tanked Cyclones and Feroxes.

Kind of working out what the XL ASB Cyclone does vs your typical LSE II Drake.

Still looks like the Drake comes out on top - unless I have my numbers wrong.

The Booster can counteract slightly more than the incoming DPS for 45 seconds, and knocks 18K EHP off the Drake, in turn.
While spending 60 seconds reloading its ASB, the 36K EHP Cyclone is torn a new ******* - and still doesn't put the Drake into Armor.

Of course, it can run - but then, why fight at all?

Don't be a prat.

As my own experience in Canes tended to often involve scraps with Drakes, I understood that 1v1 fights between the Canes and Drakes were often very close and swung by a thin margin. It was close enough that the difference between 'staggering' your twin neuts or not often made the difference in the fight. (By shutting down Invulns more often....) SP is another variable that could not be accounted for, in practice.

But it was still a bit of a 'gimmick' - because everyone in a Cane understood that the raw stats of the Drake in terms of EHP and damage FAR outstripped the Cane's pre-buff capabilities. Without that gimmick, you are left with a completely hopeless match up.

Hurricane vs most other BCs - now there are winning scenarios and losing scenarios. Thats fine.
But against the Drake you are faced with just losing scenarios. (and this is a problem with the Drake - it spanks most other BCs handily, and I haven't even tried cramming an L-ASB onto a Drake yet, just for kicks.)

I think today you have a situation where the Drake is still sitting well above the other BCs, and this could easily have been predicted by CCP - but they did nothing. If anything, HAM Drake got a buff with the turret changes.

Indeed.

Honestly, Wilkus, so many ideas have been given to you on a plate here, and you still seem intent on not learning anything and worse, you continue to attempt to distill BC balance to this absurdly narrow case of single Drake vs. single Hurricane.

It's silly to expect one of the most mobile BCs to outbrawl one of the slowest anyway. Save your tears for the Harbinger.

matar qq

Armor Cane was typically used out of Orcas - but the Cane fits were not 'metagamed' against Drakes in particular. They were more or less just your typical 1600MM Plate, 220MM, Dual Neut canes. So your assertion, Liang, is inaccurate. /shrug

In fact, some of us refused to even bother with Drakes -as they tended be fairly unimpressive KMs. A 25M ISK Drake (cost at the time) was just KB filler when everyone was after the blingy CNRs, Nighthawks and Marauders.

Still, you tended to run into a lot of Drakes -so if you were bored and not choosy, you ended up with a lot of solo fights with them. Of course, we are talking about mission runners here.

Most of these Drakes tended to use extra slots for tanking (-no tackle) - but also frequently had a SP deficit (most carebears move up from Drakes to CNRs) - and many were just flat out fail fits.

Still - some of those fights were tough with just an Armor Cane - not all ended in a clean solo kill, but require holding them until outside RR assistance arrived to help finish the job - especially if it was an older PVE'r who 'just likes Drakes'. And Rattlesnakes were even tougher. And this was pre-Cane nerf, pre-HML nerf.

Eventually I just figured 'hell with it' and put Burst-tank AC Sleips in all my Speed Orcas - as they simply cut through Drakes like butter and could easily handle Rattlesnakes as well.

Of course, after 3 separate patches, the Orca has more or less finally been killed off for LVL 4 mission runner baiting, so I don't forsee having too many of these controlled, nonconsensual 1 vs 1 fights in the future.

Armor cane best cane. No, shield-kite cane best. No, dual-prop TD cane is best cane. No, shield brawler with 5 gyro cane best.

Drakes suck. Only PvE players use drakes.. then something changed, without a damn thing happening to the drake or it's mods/weapons to make it Viewed as viable for PvP.

TDs suck. Waste of midslot.. yet that changed.. with nothing happening to TDs, infact they've gotten nerfed and are still more prevelent than Viewed in the past.

Armor-HAC fleets rule the universe.. no, wait.. alpha maels rule the universe.. nothing changed (disclaimer - the arty change '09 helped but the docturine wasn't implemented till much later...).

Golem is PvE god.. no, wait Mach.. no, wait.. Tengu.. what changed exactly when those changes happened?

Long list made short.. **** changes without **** being changed. Funny how that is.. people come up with these notions right off the bat, and for some reason.. cement them into stone. I find it to be a lot of Fail in personality to hold so much conviction.. with letting past experince weigh so heavily upon present transistions.

The result is this.. when changes do happen.. people don't really have a clue on the end result. Speculation seems to hold more sway on these forums than legitament repeated experince. And I mean repeated.. dumb ass everybody claiming a ship sucks simply becuase they hit paper with their rock on the first go.

And with that, while the cane obviously took a hit.. it was by no means drastic. It can still be used, and used very successfully. What happened is there is going to be more options for people to explore, and use with equal success than simply drake/cane or go home. It is going to take some time to find the most optimal fits too.. fight after fight after fight after fight to garnish reliable proof, than number punching. The cane docturine really hasn't changed.. take it out, and smash good pilots trying the new BCs in different fits they aren't used to. Can sit in the lab and design the perfect gun.. then when u give it to a soldier, actual battle field results don't pan out. This has happened time n again throughout the history of weapons.

Cane is also going to weild the term of 'inferior'.. making people more inclined to fight something that really isn't that badly nerfed.. at all. That in itself.. is a buff to me.