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Faction War Data

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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2013-02-19 09:15:36 UTC
Here is some DOOM for you all.

Digging up facts is a waste of time if the aim to point out that FW is (and has been since plexing-LP) a giant farmers market .. everyone knows, anyone can see it but no one cares.

Expect no changes until at least after tiericide and the revamp of null is complete, and even then chances are that it will be more of the same just as current is merely a differently flavoured mass-flip-FarmWars .. too many people like easy access to 'stuffz' for plexing LP to be removed, gameplay be damned.
We might manage to get CCP to change the plexes in a way that makes people actually bring the appropriate ships which was the reason (supposedly) for the latest changes but I am not getting my hopes up.

CCP has found out what the rest of the gaming market has known for ages: The biggest teat when it comes to customers is that of 'instant gratification' .. knew it was coming just hadn't expected them to go all in the way they have.
Eve has begun its downward spiral, which is the only possible end-result when becoming 'more of the same', and it will require massive sacrifices to turn it around .. until then (if Eve survives) live with the fact that effort/planning/networking is no longer needed and that it is just another grind-game among many.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2013-02-19 11:47:13 UTC
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
Cearain wrote:
what do you conclude about the facts?

Carebears are bad in pvp. One hell of a breaking news.


The news is that the most effective plexers are all carebears.

Working as intended?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2013-02-19 12:00:30 UTC
Veshta

Not even I am that doom and gloom. CCP will at least put a timer rollback in which should help and possibly fix this mess.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Here is some DOOM for you all.

Digging up facts is a waste of time if the aim to point out that FW is (and has been since plexing-LP) a giant farmers market .. everyone knows, anyone can see it but no one cares.

.


That seems to be the case...... this week.

A week or 2 ago when I refered to the medal the gallente got as being awarded for winning a "carebear race" there was allot of anger directed my way. I was supposedly horribly ignorrant for thinking such a thing. My posting this data in their medal thread also seems to cause allot of anger.

But yes it seems now alllot of those same gallente are in this thread, saying how they know sov is for carebears and no one cares.

If everyone always knew its a carebear race then why was everyone so upset when I originally said that?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Beatrice Ushiromiya
Yukkuri Pharmaceuticals
#44 - 2013-02-19 12:11:36 UTC
I can't say if it works as intended because I don't really know about CCP's intentions.

You still need to fight for hubs to capture systems. So you can't just win the war (by winning the war I mean keeping the high tier level) by sitting in your stabbed ass inside plexes. You can, however, make a living by that, even a fortune. I don't see a problem there. There are many ways to make a fortune in EVE, this one is not even the best.

The whole EVE works this way. You make money and/or spend them in PVP. Plexing is about making money, deal with it.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-02-19 12:18:06 UTC
Posting in a bitter, content-free Cearain whine thread.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2013-02-19 12:46:13 UTC
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
You still need to fight for hubs to capture systems...

You have had a lot of *epic* fights on hubs I take it since it is the only mitigating feature you deemed worthy to mention? Hubs were intended to be brawl sites, just as unrestricted plexes were .. but fact of the matter is that hubs do not see any fighting whatsoever, militias wait for their TZ and then grind the EHP with little to no interference, the most one can hope for is a pirate gang or two sniping away.
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
So you can't just win the war (by winning the war I mean keeping the high tier level) by sitting in your stabbed ass inside plexes....

That is exactly what is happening now. Plexing is done by stabbed/cloaked/skittish alts who in turn dump a trifling amount of their "hard earned" LP into hubs, which yields even more LP etc. ad nauseum .. territorial control was moved from being a 50/50 PvP/PvE endeavour to a 100% PvE with the introduction of plexing LP.
That is the number one issue with FW and has been since they made the FarmWar patch (now defunct), war is entirely controlled by mechanics that not only discourages conflict but outright rewards the avoidance of conflict.
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
...Plexing is about making money, deal with it.

And this does not get to you? FW and its plexes were meant to (and is still considered to) be a delivery system for PvP not wallet balance .. why did the desire for a "massive wardec" morph into bland old greed?

Pick one or more:
Decouple plexing from territorial control.
Force appropriate ships for plexing.
Remove farmers from equation by moving LP gain elsewhere.

Sadly, people in Eve have developed a sense of entitlement (I am Danish so know full well what damage that can do Big smile) and cash-cows have become holier than thou .. Eve did not start out as a game catering to the casual gamer .. guess subscription numbers are high enough for CCP to risk rolling the die and change it into a generic MMO.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-02-19 13:16:28 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
You still need to fight for hubs to capture systems...

You have had a lot of *epic* fights on hubs I take it since it is the only mitigating feature you deemed worthy to mention? Hubs were intended to be brawl sites, just as unrestricted plexes were .. but fact of the matter is that hubs do not see any fighting whatsoever, militias wait for their TZ and then grind the EHP with little to no interference, the most one can hope for is a pirate gang or two sniping away.


How is it CCP's fault that the defending militia doesn't show up to defend their hub? If you want to let them set a reinforcement timer, who gets to decide it?
Beatrice Ushiromiya
Yukkuri Pharmaceuticals
#48 - 2013-02-19 13:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Beatrice Ushiromiya
Takseen already pointed it out, but once again: capturing systems - the vital part of controlling the fw space - can't be done by a bunch of cloaky stabby alts. So it's not the mechanics that are broken.

I don't see a big problem in how to organise reinforcement timers for hubs. For example, you can enable and set the timer when you upgrading a hub to V level. Not sure if people would be happy about those timers though. 0.0 folks are not happy about them.

Quote:
FW and its plexes were meant to (and is still considered to) be a delivery system for PvP not wallet balance


Seriously? Did CCP said that all that FW thing serves only to encourage pvp? Personally I've thought fw is just another kind of game activity.

I'm faaar from being a serious pvp-pilot, but I read blogs and forum posts of those who are. Most of them are agree that you don't really need any additional conditions to get fights if you're not lazy. And many of those who are in fw says that you get a plenty of pvp there in FW. After two days of being there I agree with them, you can find a fight there much easier than in 0.0. You're just disturbed of people who don't care about pew-pew while being so close to you, aren't you?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2013-02-19 14:45:46 UTC
Takseen wrote:
How is it CCP's fault that the defending militia doesn't show up to defend their hub? If you want to let them set a reinforcement timer, who gets to decide it?

They sort of designed it that way. Militia's are not as TZ homogeneous as null but it has gotten damn close, combined with the infernal EHP grind mechanic used for hubs, which cannot be as excessive as in null due to fleets not being able to blot out the sun, resulting in smash'n'grab being used.
Note: It is most commonly done as described, last few plexes and iHub in ones 'own' TZ but there is another much less frequently used, which is to drop twin dreads (three without proper implants) for one cycle .. can be done at any time regardless of TZ, but is just as risk averse as the former.

iHub mechanic just screams "we had a failure of inspiration/we had beer to swill". System flipping should have been kept in the plexes which would have allowed for a built-in timer to be introduced sans the artificial nature of reinforcement timers:
Once system is vulnerable it must never go below 98% contested for the next 6 hours. If achieved the system switches to 'lost' at the end of aforementioned six hours .. the six hours is the time required for the Empire navy to get pacification forces in place (yes, they form up just as slowly as pod pilots!).
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
...You're just disturbed of people who don't care about pew-pew while being so close to you, aren't you?

No, I am as stated disturbed (could stop there, but won't Big smile) by my pew being dictated by people who have never fired a shot at another ship (plex rats notwithstanding). Farmers should be allowed to do their thing and use however many stabs/cloaks they'd like, but then they should not be able to influence where I can dock or how much LP I can make.

Non-combatants should not be able to influence the war directly, full stop.
Beatrice Ushiromiya
Yukkuri Pharmaceuticals
#50 - 2013-02-19 15:05:09 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
System flipping should have been kept in the plexes

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Non-combatants should not be able to influence the war directly

Doesn't compute.

And should CCP change the system by some means so it's entirely based on combat, people will be whining about blobs. Blob warfare is worse than, eh, carebear warfare to my opinion.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#51 - 2013-02-19 15:18:15 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Posting in a bitter, content-free Cearain whine thread.





Cearain: posts nothing but the data showing the most effective plexers are all carebears.

Andreus Isiris: I don't see any content.

The only way that can happen is if you are so emotionally wrapped up in this that you are completely blind to facts and reason.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#52 - 2013-02-19 15:42:04 UTC
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
Takseen already pointed it out, but once again: capturing systems - the vital part of controlling the fw space - can't be done by a bunch of cloaky stabby alts. So it's not the mechanics that are broken.


I dont think this is really a big issue. Caldari already flipped over half the war zone.

I probably wouldn't fit stabs on a bunker buster but you could. I think I would definitely fit a cloak and an mwd on one so you can get by gate camps.

Here is a domi fit that can be used to bust bunkers and gets 1576 DPS and (1693 with heat and you can heat for about 2 minutes).

I left the mids open to taste if your risk advers you could use an ecm burst and use sentries so you can collect them right away when trouble comes. I suppose you could put some stabbs on it too. But a dozen of these would make fairly short work of the hubs.

[Dominix, bunker]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Improved Cloaking Device II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]


Ogre II x5


Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:

Quote:
FW and its plexes were meant to (and is still considered to) be a delivery system for PvP not wallet balance


Seriously? Did CCP said that all that FW thing serves only to encourage pvp? Personally I've thought fw is just another kind of game activity.




Well I don't think they said fw missions were to encourage pvp but definitely the plexing and the sov war was to be pvp. Fanfest, several dev blogs, and our csm rep communicated that. He said ccp was on the same page as he was and he definitely wanted that.

Moreover several of the changes they made were specifically to promote more pvp in plexes. Making it so the rats did not force pilots to fit pve ships, and moving the button closer to warp in are a few examples.

It is interesting that someone coming in and not knowing the history doesn't even realize sov was supposed to be pvp centered. I don't fault you at all, I just find it interesting.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#53 - 2013-02-19 15:45:33 UTC
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
System flipping should have been kept in the plexes

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Non-combatants should not be able to influence the war directly

Doesn't compute..



That is because plexing was not actually changed from a carebear race.


Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:

And should CCP change the system by some means so it's entirely based on combat, people will be whining about blobs. Blob warfare is worse than, eh, carebear warfare to my opinion.


Plexing mechanics are not blob friendly. So making them pvp does not necessarilly mean it will make them blob warfare. Bunker busting can be blob friendly- especially if there are timers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#54 - 2013-02-19 17:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Non-combatants should not be able to influence the war directly, full stop.

Instead of the doom and gloom you and Cearain spout on the forums all the time, can't we all agree that a simple timer rollback would be enough to give the pvpers enough tools to grief the farmers?

Otherwise, it's all good. FW is working great. Fights/Kills are up. Home systems are being defended. Players are making enough isk from running plexes to stay on-field and available for fights almost all of the time.

The single (minor) issue in FW is that farmers are farming backwater systems that nobody cares about. Everybody knows this and it doesn't require some moron to pollute every single FW thread to point this out. Hopefully CCP implements timer rollback at some point, but if they don't then it's no big deal.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2013-02-19 17:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Non-combatants should not be able to influence the war directly, full stop.

Instead of the doom and gloom you and Cearain spout on the forums all the time, can't we all agree that a simple timer rollback would be enough to give the pvpers enough tools to grief the farmers?

Otherwise, it's all good. FW is working great. Fights/Kills are up. Home systems are being defended. Players are making enough isk from running plexes to stay on-field and available for fights almost all of the time.

The single (minor) issue in FW is that farmers are farming backwater systems that nobody cares about. Everybody knows this and it doesn't require some moron to pollute every single FW thread to point this out. Hopefully CCP implements timer rollback at some point, but if they don't then it's no big deal.



Look I think we all prefer
1) a meaningless system that no one cares about, but has more pvp;

than

2) a meaningless system that no one cares about, with less pvp.

So yes there was an improvement. CCP and Hans should get thanked for that.

That is not really where the debate is.

The debate is for people who don't recognize that this sov warfare system is indeed a just a silly carebear race. That is why I posted the data that shows the most effective plexers are carebears.

CCP can do better with it. I think they will do better, when they adjust the timers. Will that solve the problem? Maybe. But the system won't be as good as it could be for militia players.

The rollbacks will be especially good for neutral pvpers like myself. A notification system would actually benefit pvpers in the militias as opposed to neutrals. Even after a timer rollback system it would still make more sense for people intrested in frequent pvp to remain neutral.

A notification system would actually give players who want frequent pvp a reason to join fw.

But that is all I will say about notification systems for the next 30 seconds.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#56 - 2013-02-19 18:02:07 UTC
Cearain wrote:
The debate is for people who don't recognize that this sov warfare system is indeed a just a silly carebear race. That is why I posted the data that shows the most effective plexers are carebears.
The sov war is not a silly carebear race, as pointed out many times. Carebears cannot win the war, they can are only effective in areas where the pvp'ers don't care to constantly patrol.

If you had said, "Sov warfare in backwater systems nobody cares about is a silly carebear race", then you'd right. But you keep insisting that all FW sov warfare is a silly carebear race and that is completely false.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#57 - 2013-02-19 18:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
The debate is for people who don't recognize that this sov warfare system is indeed a just a silly carebear race. That is why I posted the data that shows the most effective plexers are carebears.
The sov war is not a silly carebear race, as pointed out many times. Carebears cannot win the war, they can are only effective in areas where the pvp'ers don't care to constantly patrol.


90% of the systems.

X Gallentius wrote:

If you had said, "Sov warfare in backwater systems nobody cares about is a silly carebear race", then you'd right. But you keep insisting that all FW sov warfare is a silly carebear race and that is completely false.



Over 90% of it is. Most of the systems that are in play are not the home systems. And the home systems are likely plexed most often by alts because the enemy can't dock there.

I did not say there was never a single pvp fight in a plex. Almost all my fights come from plexes. But the vast majority of the the sov war is indeed a silly carebear race.

Winning 90% of systems is winning imo.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-02-19 18:55:02 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Note: It is most commonly done as described, last few plexes and iHub in ones 'own' TZ but there is another much less frequently used, which is to drop twin dreads (three without proper implants) for one cycle .. can be done at any time regardless of TZ, but is just as risk averse as the former.



So iHubs cause large fleets or fecking capital ships to appear at a point in space visible on the overview at various times, and you want to do away with that in favour of yet more plexes?
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#59 - 2013-02-19 18:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:


The rollbacks will be especially good for neutral pvpers like myself. A notification system would actually benefit pvpers in the militias as opposed to neutrals. Even after a timer rollback system it would still make more sense for people intrested in frequent pvp to remain neutral.



so what u mean is u want a notification so ur alt can see wenever a plex is being run so u can send ur out of militia toon in and kill whatevers running it, then probably send ur militia alt in (im guessing u have one in each side) so u can finish up the plex with it and collect the lp for less time.

u also complain about stabbed farmers if ur not in fw why do u bother even chasing them or even care about them in the first place?

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#60 - 2013-02-19 19:08:39 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Winning 90% of systems is winning imo.
That's a "you" problem, not a FW problem.