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W-ORE ships
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ROCK MELTER
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-01-22 02:59:41 UTC
I like the idea of an Ore hauler that hauls ORE. Does not need to have a large cargo hold BUT the cargo hold could be a SPECIAL cargo hold to hold crystals. THAT hold could be HUGE to take care of alliance needs in the fields.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#62 - 2013-01-22 07:27:25 UTC
Indeed. For mining ops above 3 or 4 miners, it makes sense to have a larger hauler for the ore they are retrieving. At the moment a second Orca or a Freighter is the only alternative to a swathe of rookies in Indys. They are expensive and skill intensive. Losing one of these in a mining op gone wrong is a heavy hit, (while you can keep a mining fleet aligned, the same cannot be said for the haulers,) and while I agree that fools should not be wrapped in cotton wool, it would be good to have a cheaper and more accessible option.

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Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#63 - 2013-01-22 09:39:27 UTC
Gas miner sounds good, maybe make it a crusier class so it has a chance against sleepers :P

The modular BC hauler sounds great as well
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-01-22 10:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Psihius
To me some ideas look like a magic rainbows wanted, but still some rational seeds are there.

Personaly me is missing these things:


  • Cruisier/Battlecruisier sized gas cloud harvester. Venture is good, but it's essentially a noob ship for high-sec and some low-sec as CCP stated themselfves. I'd imagine it to be more efficient (like 15-20% better than Venture) and have a bigger ore bay (10-15k m3 at least). I'd imagine it loosing the +2 warp strengh. It definetly needs an ability for fitting at least 1 gang link like we now usually use Hurricane in the fleet of Ventures to provide bonuses.
  • Medium-sized hauler in between industrials/orca and freighters. You don't need a hauler of 30-100k m3 - there is orca doing just that perfectly. Something around the capacity of the Jump Freighter would be perfect. Why not same as Orca? Because orca has it's own ninche - it can haul assembled ships, it has a fleet hangar and can be fitted acording to the task at hand (EHP more than a freighter can be acheeved). Hauler probably will not be a capital ship, meaning traiding it's EHP for other traits.


I could add some stuff about mining crystals, Rorqual being usefull only at the POS and other stuff, but I would leave that to other people, because I stopped doing professional mining long time ago. But I do logistics and gas mining in WH daily, so I know that stuff :)
Katherine Jasmone
#65 - 2013-01-22 10:55:21 UTC
The issue I have with the Orca is that is an Industrial Command Ship and not an ore hauler as some have stated. Waste of time and mining bonuses by having the ship hauling (in warp no bonuses are given).

I'll illustrated this with a fleet mining op scenario (hi-sec)

Mind you that this a somewhat redundant explanation for those who actually run mining ops.

Orca + 3-5 mining barges/exhumers + dedicated "proposed" ore hauler support.

Orca roles:

  • Command support - mining foreman links and appropriate modules.
  • Overflow support - tractors in overflow from cans (yes, jetcan mining) for storage in ore/cargo/fleet.
  • Fitting service. Mining crystal storage.
  • Drone - light and/or medium. Salvage drones optional.


Mining barges/exhumers:
Mining - "doing what they do best"

Proposed orehauler

  • Either a reuse of the Noctis/Primae hull or new hull entirely.
  • Slot config - 4-2-3 ( Can fit 4 tractors)
  • Dedicated fixed capacity 50-75k m3 - cannot fit secure containers.
  • BC sig and speed. No drone hold.
  • Bonuses relevant to skills affect tractor range, speed (5%) and hold per level (5k per level)


At least these are my thoughts.

Carebears, Nullbears and CCP, oh my.
Pearl Canopus
#66 - 2013-01-22 11:22:14 UTC
Psihius wrote:
...
  • Cruisier/Battlecruisier sized gas cloud harvester. Venture is good, but it's essentially a noob ship for high-sec and some low-sec as CCP stated themselfves. I'd imagine it to be more efficient (like 15-20% better than Venture) and have a bigger ore bay (10-15k m3 at least). I'd imagine it loosing the +2 warp strengh. It definetly needs an ability for fitting at least 1 gang link like we now usually use Hurricane in the fleet of Ventures to provide bonuses.
I know about these wishes due to my study of ORE Frigate Thread. I don't know what CCP will do to establish a Tech2 ship. Many times the more specialized gas harvesting ship has been suggested there. I believe it should be possible in any way. To establish an ORE Cruiser would need a new ORE Cruiser skill and more ships in there again. :) Ealier or later... But a Tech2 frigate may match a lot of the wishes provided in past.
Psihius wrote:
  • Medium-sized hauler in between industrials/orca and freighters. You don't need a hauler of 30-100k m3 - there is orca doing just that perfectly. Something around the capacity of the Jump Freighter would be perfect. Why not same as Orca? Because orca has it's own ninche - it can haul assembled ships, it has a fleet hangar and can be fitted acording to the task at hand (EHP more than a freighter can be acheeved). Hauler probably will not be a capital ship, meaning traiding it's EHP for other traits.
    • The Orca is fine as a hauler. But it's a capital ship with capital skill needs. The thread suggested modular haulers (equal to Tech3 Cruisers) or more ORE industrials.
    If the Orca could be entered with a lower amount of skills in order to use them as a hauler, then it will work as hauler perfectly. It's truely ok to have a high skill need to use it as a Capital Industrial Command ship. The cargo bays of the ORCA need a rebalancing after rising the ore cargo bays of mining barges and exhumers to capital sizes (for instance 275.000m³ ore bay).
    Instead of ORCA with at least nearly quarter or half a year of skill training a hauler would need 4 levels ORE/Mining Frigate, Industry 3 and 1 Level ORE Industrial. So you can enter the smallest and/or fastest ORE hauler as easy than a racial hauler. ORE hauler would be optimized for carrying ore (possibly minerals) as bulk.

    The intention of this thread is NOT nerfing the Orca but adding new ORE Industrials with a lower amount of skill needs and maybe ORE Capital Industrials for more independant 0-sec jobs. Beginners can assist bigger hisec mining operations using an ore hauler.
    Pearl Canopus
    #67 - 2013-01-31 15:19:58 UTC
    Bump.
    An interesting hauler discussion is to be found here:
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172083

    It's not compatible with this thread completely but provides interesting options to be discussed here too.
    Pearl Canopus
    #68 - 2013-02-07 12:40:23 UTC
    I'll try a summary:
    ORE Industrials
    ORE may provide additional ships, what match the ORE Industrial segment. These ships will be reachable with a lower amount of skill needs.

    Faction Industrials
    ORE may interact with other primarily Gallente based factions as Syndicate (Zephyr) or InterBus in order to provide more specialized haulers. These ships may match several and different professions.
    ORE -> ore bulk hauling, matching the needs of small to large sized mining gangs (no command options)
    Syndicate -> Smuggling (Look at 'Zephyr' for inspirations.)
    InterBus -> bulk transports HiSec/LowSec

    Faction Modules
    Maybe Syndicate or InterBus provide modules what matches a profession.
    Syndicate -> lowering visibility (target radius) while lowering HP and cargo capacity, hardening armor/shield while massively reducing cargo capacity for Safe-Trans (stacking penalty), hardening cargo bay against cargo scanning while reducing cargo capacity
    InterBus -> Cargo modules for Mid- and HiSlots -> providing highend hauler cargo capacity (stacking penalty), if all slots are filled with cargobay-modules (Iteron Mark V may reach max. 200k m³).
    Example:
    'InterBus Expanded Cargohold' (low slot) -> adds cargo capacity like an 'Expanded Cargohold I' but without the velocity penalty. HP or Power/CPU might be penalized instead.

    Racial Industrial Faction versions
    Maybe Syndicate or InterBus providing Iteron Mark I, III, V as faction versions with specialization to professions. No new ships would be needed but skins only.

    ---

    ORE Capital Industrials
    ORE Capital Industrials class may be filled with more specialized industrial ships or with one chassis what may get industrial subsystems (cargo bay, ore cargo bay, ore compression system, corp hangar, ship hangar, command systems, energy systems, CPU extensions, VAT bay, WH-mining systems, mining systems, drone bay, PI-covering subsystems, etc.) comparable to Tech3 but without the skill/producing needs of Tech3 systems. The number of simultanously usable subsystems will be very limited.

    Orca gets a lower entry level as hauler but a higher skill level need as industrial command ship.
    Rorqal becomes a Tech2 ship.
    Venture gets a Tech2 gas-mining twin.

    Tech3 ORE industrial subsystems may be added in order to fulfill needs of 0-Sec and solo-playing freelancers.

    Skill pathes will be unified to racial ones. Subsystems need specialized skills each.
    Kathern Aurilen
    #69 - 2013-02-14 22:15:38 UTC
    Jin alPatar wrote:
    [quote=Hakan MacTrew]2. Modular Hauler
    I've seen other people recommend "T3 Haulers/Harvester" but never really liked the idea. I do like your version. I'd say the ore Bay should be larger (let's say 4x the normal cargo bay as it's limited to Ore only).
    I wouldn't say 4x,,, I would think maybe a 1.5-2x of the normal. A 4x T2 mod would make it bigger than the orca holds.

    No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

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    Kathern Aurilen
    #70 - 2013-02-14 22:39:14 UTC
    Pearl Canopus wrote:
    When I introduce a "Super Mining Barge" I don't see more mining efficiency or revenue but much more resilience and independence in mining process for the "lone wolf lowsec/0-sec miners". Much more ore cargo or possibilities to reduce the needed cargo amount for instance by onboard ore processing (low grade). Super Barge Skills may slightly buff refining bonus or ability to use refining modules or additional drones or so on.
    I would be a lil scared to run a lone miner(even super tough in 0.0). I think people are making great strides with the venture. Its very responsive and can be in warp in 2-3 seconds and hard to stop unless they warp right on top of you.

    I think the idea of a self contain refinery is too much.... MAYBE a self contained ore compression mod but I think that would have to take the place of a strip miner plus it would have to be in a deployed mode that would be pushing in Rorqual territory, but thats pretty over the top too. It would have to be BIG super slow and that's a gank magnet waiting to happen.

    No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

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    Kathern Aurilen
    #71 - 2013-02-14 23:02:01 UTC
    Hakan MacTrew wrote:
    kes less than 30 days from character creation to get into any one freighter. It takes nearly 50 days to get into an Orca.

    using an Orca as a hauler just doesn't make sense with facts like that. In my eyes, the Orca should have been an ore hauler. A T2 version should have been the booster.
    They the taking the mining pre-reqs out so the orca training time to get into a orca is going down to 14.5 days in the up coming summer expansion

    No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

    Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
    Kathern Aurilen
    #72 - 2013-02-14 23:20:35 UTC
    Katherine Jasmone wrote:
    Proposed orehauler

    • Either a reuse of the Noctis/Primae hull or new hull entirely.
    • Slot config - 4-2-3 ( Can fit 4 tractors)
    • Dedicated fixed capacity 50-75k m3 - cannot fit secure containers.
    • BC sig and speed. No drone hold.
    • Bonuses relevant to skills affect tractor range, speed (5%) and hold per level (5k per level)


    At least these are my thoughts.
    I would much rather a new hull with JUST a dedicated ore hold(or a VERY limited 5-10k cargo hold to bring back more mining crystals). The Noc is to good at its job to go messing around with it. No saving the Primea, the holds are too small to crowbar in a 75,000m3 ore hold.

    Maybe use the cheap end of the indy tree slots(iteron1 has 2 low 2 mid and 1 high)... the Orca can tractor in the can to a central location for pick up. I can see if u wanted to fit a tractor(maybe a roll bonus, not a skill bonus)

    Again dedicated ore hold ONLY

    I agree, its basically a indy so no drones

    Bonuses I would think are better suited to ore hold sizing like other indys 50-75ooo m3

    No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

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    Kathern Aurilen
    #73 - 2013-02-14 23:34:07 UTC
    Hakan MacTrew wrote:
    I would still like to see a hauler with a similar cargo capability, with lower cost. Just for ore or ships. (Although the ship transporter has been mentioned as basically being a loot pinata in similar posts.)

    As for scan proofing, thats on the way out. Corp hanger, ore hold and maintainance hanger will all scan and drop loot.
    I don't like the idea of scanning proof unless its a T2 Transport ship but that's the job of the racial transport ships. Most of what ORE should be making should be indy related

    No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

    Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
    Hakan MacTrew
    Konrakas Forged
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #74 - 2013-03-07 11:08:41 UTC
    bump

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    Hakan MacTrew
    Konrakas Forged
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #75 - 2013-04-05 10:38:26 UTC
    bump

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    Patrice Macmahon
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #76 - 2013-04-25 11:09:49 UTC
    My Contribution: Dusting Off the Primae - Industrials with Roles

    It's just the industrials, but you might get a kick out of it.

    Otherwise, couple nice ideas out of here. Similar to a lot. Seems to be a consensus that an ORE specific hauler to support the barges massive cargo holds seems to be running theme.

    +1 to more ships that fill the needed niche!

     "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
    Ruze
    Next Stage Initiative
    #77 - 2013-04-26 00:57:14 UTC
    I will add to the ops post, as I've got similar ideas of my own:

    ORE Command Center - Unlike anything seen before, this is a mobile POS that can be cyno'd between systems. It has no pilot, but is 'directed' to locations like a probe would be, through a system map interface by those who have rights within the owning corporations.

    This Center is smaller than a POS, but is capable of moving between systems using wormholes (not gates). It's built like an outpost, and is capable of having docked ships inside. It's able to hold a fully fit Rorqual and several smaller ships, and can include combat ships.

    Through modular attachments, it's ship hold, corporate hangars, refining and reprocessing and member hangars can be expanded and customized. Hopefully, in future iterations, it can even hold incarna style interiors.

    Player may deposit their ships in the ship hangar. The Command Center itself has no armaments, but it's shields are fuel based and nigh impregnable. Without fire support, though, a command center is simply a large rock waiting for enough force to break it. It does not have POS shields, but station shields, meaning it cannot protect other ships within it's range.

    Unlike stations and even POS's, the capabilities of the ORE Command Center are ultimately limited by the size of the ship, as well as fuel. It requires fuel to bridge, to jump, to move in-system, and to run it's shields.

    As mentioned earlier, a unique feature of the ORE Command Center is it's capability of using wormholes to move. Though it's size almost guarantees the wormhole will collapse upon it's transfer, it can bridge and stabilize the wormhole temporarily to allow other ships to move through first, though this requires a massive fuel expenditure.

    Because of issues with orbits, Command Centers cannot be on the same grid as POS's (mostly to prevent uber POS's where the POS's guns protect the Command Centers' superior control mechanics).

    If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
    Aldarr Mentakk
    Dragon.
    Pandemic Horde
    #78 - 2013-05-11 21:42:17 UTC
    love the idea
    Rayzilla Zaraki
    Yin Jian Enterprises
    #79 - 2013-05-11 22:35:47 UTC
    I like this thread. I don't mine or transport much except as a means to an end, but some of these ideas are pretty cool.

    To add in my own thoughts, I'd like to keep small and see some development of the Venture into a nifty little low- null- sec miner. Probably a decent combination of quick and tanky, give it a bonus to the mining lasers and gas harvesters to allow it to fill its ore hold quickly. The +2 warp core is a help, but I am not sure it is enough to keep this ship viable in the more dangerous parts of space.

    A smaller, quicker version of a Noctis would be cool, too. Personally, I never really manage to fill up it's 1460 m3 cargo hold, so I'd love to see a destroyer sized version with maybe 600 to 700 m3 capacity but good speed and also viable for low- and null- sec areas.

    Big ships are fun, but I think they tend to wind up just being targets for gank squads. I like the idea of small and sneaky.

    Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
    Maximus Aerelius
    PROPHET OF ENIGMA
    #80 - 2013-05-11 22:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
    I read this as WH-ORE Ships (minus the - as that's the H)! I like that idea and this one!

    ORE Industrials take time to train and for only a few ships it's a massive shame.

    +1

    PS: WH-ORE ships could work as well for, well you know, Wormholes lol

    [b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!