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Live Events Discussion

 
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Should Live Events be Live Cutscenes?

First post
Author
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-02-14 02:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alizabeth Vea
So, the Minmatar convoys were equipped with :Devhax: gear. This effectively means that there was no chance for players to affect the outcome. Falcon has stated in twitter that: "Not all live events have to be about killing things :)" I can understand that. However, does putting iddqd in the console change things? There were quite a number of people that lined up to escort the Minmatar fleet. Are their efforts to defend cheapened?

Personally, my fear is thus: people show up because they think they can change something. (Okay, I'm sure there were those that just liked the show.) Does this particular incident hamper the efforts of future live events in the future? Will there be a news article about Heth moving from one system to another (and be killable) and no one shows because they assume there's no point? (I know this probably will not happen, but I'm throwing it out as a hypothetical.)

I appreciate the efforts of The Live Events Team. I've seen more storylines happening in the past few months than the previous two years that I've been playing Eve. I want them to continue, I want players to get involved in them; I think it makes for a stronger Eve. I worry that this sets a precedent that future live events will just be shows for the players.

My personal feelings is that the ships should have been killable. (Argue all you want. 8m EHP in highsec is not killable.) Officials sometimes die in the line of duty. Even if the ship had been destroyed, there could have been survivors, etc, that got out before hand. Maybe a delegate or two dies, but the rest make it.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-02-14 02:49:01 UTC
Some? Yes. This was one of them.

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need

Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#3 - 2013-02-14 02:52:39 UTC
Whine much?
CCP Falcon
#4 - 2013-02-14 03:03:15 UTC

So, I was aware when I planned this live event that there might be some controversy regarding the fact that we ran it this way. That's fine and people are entitled to their opinions.

The fact that people need to understand is that not every live event needs to be about killing people. Live events are not designed for people to be able to simply show up, gank the actors and grab a few shiny killmails and some loot. If people want to view live events like that, then they're going to be sorely disappointed.

So far, every single event that's been organized as been fully open to players screwing things up completely, and in most instances this has happened (thanks guys). It's lead to a couple of arcs being cut short because everyone's dead, and in some instances it's lead to sub-arcs spawning due to player interaction with existing high level storyline.

With this event, the idea was simple. We wanted to represent something happening that has been half a decade in the making, and is the first gathering of the heads of all seven tribes in over a thousand years. The formation of the Tribal Assembly is biblical in terms of the Republic's structure and operation, and is fundamental to the sustainability of the entire faction.

We could have simply put news articles out about this and not bothered to offer any form of interaction with players at all. However since this is such a massive event we wanted to have representation for it in game.

Lets look at it this way:

Your fleet shot at someone from the Republic government, in Republic space, under the eyes of CONCORD and the Republic Fleet. What exactly were you expecting to happen?

Not to mention the fact that they came in staggered, in groups, and engaged several seconds apart. This is a very bad idea regardless of situation when you're attempting a suicide gank.

I'll reiterate again, if you want to turn up to crash a live event and gank all the actors for no reason other than shiny loot and killmails, feel free. This is a sandbox and it's perfectly within the rules.

However, don't get bent out of shape when things don't go your way and you lose all your ships because you made a bad call.

Not every event is going to be about killing people. Live events are about exploring and advancing EVE's backstory while providing a method through which our players can interact with it. They have never been designed as a shiny killmail dispenser, and never will be.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-02-14 03:24:26 UTC
I agree partly with what you say there Falcon, but it does also break a bit the rules and thus the inmersion if those characters where invulnerable. They should have followed the usual rules for their specific shiptype as everyone else, they have the protection of players, plus CONCORD, plus random Minmatarr spawn navy that could have been fielded. But if someone does manage to pull that operation out against all those odds, he should have a chance to kill them.

But, I agree definitely on not all events being a matter of shooting, and agree as well with the importance of making an event out of it instead of only a news item. If I'd had been a Minmatarr, I'd love to have been there to escort them, but I would also have liked to have to make sure they get there alive, so my actions count. I remember having to escort an NPC in the events that led to FW, when the Defiants invaded Amarr, and all of us Amarrians having to organize the defense so the Minmatarr wouldn't kill him even if they outnumbered us as they did... and we pulled it out.

If you want to make an event of "debate" for example, or a speech in game, or something like that, maybe instead of placing them in ships in highsec they could have already been docked in Pator and leave it as a chat in local, for example, thus players wouldn't feel like they are doing nothing of importance, and you get a succesful event that focuses on the Rp and the discussion and such. Even, if announced this way, a lot of griefers and non-rpers might not have showed up and filled the chat with useless OOC smack talk (tried to read the logs and it was a pain!).

Then again, just my opinion. I've stated lots of time I love the work you guys are doing, and the Live Events team is one of the main reasons I am so happy to have returned to EVE, as their dissapearance was one of the reason I left it so many years ago. Just trying to bring some constructive criticism to improve the events for the future, if such a thing is possible.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-02-14 03:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
The fact is that suicide ganks are cheap and easy to set up nowadays. A fleet of some thirty or so Thrashers will happily mince most sub-capital targets.

and let's face it, this event was advertised well in advance by the news story. there was plenty of time to get a gank organised.

That's not "player actions having consequences" that's basically just trolling. The goons didn't have an in-character reason for being there, their presence was purely a case of wanting to screw with somebody else's playstyle.

CCP built their sandcastle around a rock. The Goons came along and tried to kick it over, stubbed their toe and and now Alizabeth's whining about how unfair that is.

Deal with it. If you're not prepared to occasionally have to limp home with a bruised foot and a wounded ego, you shouldn't be kicking sandcastles.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-02-14 03:51:07 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
The fact is that suicide ganks are cheap and easy to set up nowadays. A fleet of some thirty or so Thrashers will happily mince most sub-capital targets.

and let's face it, this event was advertised well in advance by the news story. there was plenty of time to get a gank organised.

That's not "player actions having consequences" that's basically just trolling. The goons didn't have an in-character reason for being there, their presence was purely a case of wanting to screw with somebody else's playstyle.

CCP built their sandcastle around a rock. The Goons came along and tried to kick it over, stubbed their toe and and now Alizabeth's whining about how unfair that is.

Deal with it. If you're not prepared to occasionally have to limp home with a bruised foot and a wounded ego, you shouldn't be kicking sandcastles.


Not true. Our IC reason for being there was a combination of anarchy, support of slavery and support of the Empire. And possibly hatred of the Minmatar. I saw the jabber ping. There was definitely a RP perspective to it. Kind of like how WoL RPs Tetatae.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-02-14 03:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I wasn't aware the Goons are a roleplaying alliance. Sure, individuals among you dabble in it, or more. But I don't buy that the alliance as a whole has any particular IC interest in what's going on in the story of the Minmatar Republic.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-02-14 03:57:54 UTC
We're not. But that doesn't stop us from engaging in the exciting story that is Eve! Yes, we wanted to kill the TTI. Do we have to have a reason beyond that to try? Should we have to run all of our actions past the board of RP bittervets to see if they're okay?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-02-14 04:04:45 UTC
So your reasons for trying to kill the TTI was because OOC you wanted to kill the TTI, and your whole pro-slavery thing from earlier is just the excuse you came up with to try and justify the action IC.

That would seem to validate my whole sandcastle thing.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-02-14 04:08:11 UTC
Just read the othe thread and learned a few issues on this, as I didn't know Vea was one of the involved parts (or her corporation at least). I agree with Stitcher on the part of how easy it is to gank, but I would have worked around it elsehow. Instead of making the ship invulnerable (if such was the case, and not only bad planning), more CONCORD ships could have appeared, or any other such method that could be explained ICly. I have always thought Navy ships should be the toughest and the empires' military forces to be the strongest in the cluster, but they shouldn't be invulnerable, they should be very resistant though, but within reasonable ranges.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-14 04:09:29 UTC
So what happens if an Apoc Imperial Issue gets flown around for a bit as part of an event? You guys going to turn up to protect it or shoot it?

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-02-14 04:10:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alizabeth Vea
Stitcher wrote:
So your reasons for trying to kill the TTI was because OOC you wanted to kill the TTI, and your whole pro-slavery thing from earlier is just the excuse you came up with to try and justify the action IC.

That would seem to validate my whole sandcastle thing.


Actually the proslavery thing was someone else. Again, I'm not sure why I have to have an IC reason that meets your approval to do something in this game. If I want to kill a TTI because it's a TTI, why should you be allowed to say no?

Grideris wrote:
So what happens if an Apoc Imperial Issue gets flown around for a bit as part of an event? You guys going to turn up to protect it or shoot it?


We probably won't turn up at all. Since, apparently, it would not make a difference.

And that's a bad thing.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-02-14 04:22:06 UTC
He's not saying you can't, he's saying you are providing no RP reasons for it, thus can't ask for it to be treated as something different as a free "attack on a cool npc to shoot and troll".

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-02-14 04:26:09 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
He's not saying you can't, he's saying you are providing no RP reasons for it, thus can't ask for it to be treated as something different as a free "attack on a cool npc to shoot and troll".


For Stitcher, he RPs first and then bases his game play off of that. I decide what I want to do in this game first and then tailor my RP to that. So, if I decide that I want to see a TTI killed, I will then come up with an IC justification that is consistent with past RP (Aliza is an anarchist. Others may chose to pick because they support slavery) . Is this more or less valid than Stitcher's game play?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-02-14 04:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
From an RP perspective, probably less valid, as it gives little solidity to your character taking his decisions and acting as a believable person. Not going to say you RP good or bad, that is impossible to say from the exterior, but when you place one action first and then look for reasons, you end up doing things that contradict themselves completely and clearly. And each of them takes away depth out of your character and turns it more into an "excuse to do as you like" than a real person she's supposed to be (RP-wise)

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
#17 - 2013-02-14 04:49:30 UTC
If most RP events end in one group or another deciding to kill every last NPC involved, then something isn't working.
Either the difficulty is too low (it is), or the reward is too high (it's probably not, as it's either RP or epeen), or the consequences for stepping out of line are too low (they are).

The consequences can't be increased by much, worst case scenario really would be you get podded, instant -10'd, and slapped with a CONCORD fine - not only would that be ridiculous, it's easily metagamed to nearly irrelevant.
One possible effective consequence could be that NPC groups and/or CONCORD escorts remember which Players/Corps/Alliances disrupted events last time and consider them KoS during events.

The reward is the whole reason for letting people interfere in the first place, so you can't change that.

So it needs to be made more difficult. This was probably too far in the no direction for *most* events. I really don't have a problem with it as a rare event. I do think it should be justified ICly if possible. Perhaps the figures you want to be very difficult to kill, need an escort to fit some Tech 5 support mods that prevent targeting the Key NPC until the escort is dead. Likely giving the Key NPC time to escape / CONCORD to mete out justice / Retributive laser fire to clear the bad elements from the field.

tl;dr. In my opinion, no problem with this as a one off, future events need to be corrected for interference with effective but not unbeatable IC countermeasures. Groups who interfere during peaceful events should be flagged KoS (during and at events only) by that faction.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-02-14 05:02:45 UTC
"The players shape the course of the game, except when we don't want them to" ~ ISD AURORA, 2013

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Powers Sa
#19 - 2013-02-14 05:04:52 UTC
"Even cut rate dnd dungeon masters can overcome the players doing worst case scenarios, and it's your job and you can't" ~ Deadtear 2013

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IrJosy
Club 1621
#20 - 2013-02-14 05:09:30 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
"Even cut rate dnd dungeon masters can overcome the players doing worst case scenarios, and it's your job and you can't" ~ Deadtear 2013


This is very troubling. CCP falcon should be fired for this terrible atrocity.
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