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Live Events Discussion

 
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Should Live Events be Live Cutscenes?

First post
Author
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-02-14 06:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
Fuujin wrote:
Then you've been arguing against that position, since you were sniping at the goons replying here.

We're not complaining about the RP (as novice-level as it was provided here). Our complaint was all about the presentation and ability to affect the outcome. Eve has ALWAYS had destructible NPCs during its events. Hell, the Miner II BPO incident was a famous example of an "oops" moment with that.


That I agree with what you said, doesn't mean that I agree with how you said it. You can check my posts, and you'll see my reply is against you all mosly hurting your own position by replying with empty phrases and obviously inappropriate lines that are clearly trolling like:

Andski wrote:
"The players shape the course of the game, except when we don't want them to" ~ ISD AURORA, 2013


Picked one randomly, you can probably exchange that line for most of your post following Powers Sa's first post.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Leask
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-02-14 06:19:21 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Leask wrote:

True, some might call my post an effort to support my fellow corp/alliance members, but I could care less for their loses. What concerns me is the fact that CCP Falcon lied. In a game with some many possible outcomes (sabotage having become one of the most recognized parts of eve) you , CCP Falcon, failed to plan for it and took the lazy way out.


I don't know how much ISK MiniLuv has made from freighter ganks, but I am quite sure it covers the ships lost here.


Ya, I don't think money is an issue, its the idea behind CCP Falcons failure to account for the rules of the Eve Universe.
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2013-02-14 06:22:20 UTC
Sepherim wrote:


Picked one randomly, you can probably exchange that line for most of your post following Powers Sa's first post.


Well, from that random quote, does that materially differ from Verone's statement? A bit simplified and boiled down, but that's the essential heart of it: what you do matters, except when we don't want you to do it. Removing a delegate from this meeting should matter, but we gave our ships LOLEHP to prevent it.

When our legitimate concern is met with a trite response (however dressed up it was), it deserves an equally trite reply to indicate that we see through the BS cloud, and are not having any of it.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-02-14 06:28:37 UTC
Fuujin wrote:
Well, from that random quote, does that materially differ from Verone's statement? A bit simplified and boiled down, but that's the essential heart of it: what you do matters, except when we don't want you to do it. Removing a delegate from this meeting should matter, but we gave our ships LOLEHP to prevent it.

When our legitimate concern is met with a trite response (however dressed up it was), it deserves an equally trite reply to indicate that we see through the BS cloud, and are not having any of it.


As I said, agree with what you say, not how you say it. That random quote exemplifies he wasn't arguing anything in the debate, he was just trolling. He didn't add anything that hadn't already been said, nor did he explain a view point with valid points and arguments, or proofs, or anything. He just trolled.

And, in doing so, he and those that followed worked greatly to remove credibility from your fair petition. In a sense, they trolled you and themselves more than they trolled anything else. Now all this thread is going to probably be moderated in the morning, and all arguments that could have been used/seen as constructive criticism will be sent down the drain with all those useless one that only troll.

As I said, you are your worst enemy.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#45 - 2013-02-14 06:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
You guys are pretty much losing all credibility here. You're nailing CCP Falcon, one man of the amazing team that made it possible for players to influence the storyline more than ever before, to the cross for one event where he has to resort to GOD-modding (which in the RP world is another word for being GM) a ship to be nearly impossible to kill, while he does not (yet) have better tools at his disposal.
And you're implying that you couldn't care less about the outcome or actor invincibility, as long as you get to blow the ship up. You know you are showing your true colours with those kind of statements?

I agree with Seraphim, Falcon will likely not cater to goon ganklust, and keep the target audience for the RP live events in mind, the RP community. Most goons here fail to understand basic RP principles aplied to a MMORPG with limited RP GM tools.
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2013-02-14 06:44:18 UTC
Something else to remember is that if it is a true sandbox, then there should be a chance to defend as well.

Except, a properly executed suicide gank would be near-impossible to defend against, even if everyone who came to escort and defend showed up in T2 logis; the entire point of alpha is to break past sustained reps.

The defenders cannot effectively launch a preemptive engagement against the suicide gankers either - in large part because the hostile fleet need not appear on field until the last moment, hiding in safespots until they arrive to execute the attack.

That's not a contest or a sandbox. It's a shooting range, which I don't think CCP is obliged to hand to anyone.
CCP Falcon
#47 - 2013-02-14 06:47:58 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
I agree partly with what you say there Falcon, but it does also break a bit the rules and thus the inmersion if those characters where invulnerable. They should have followed the usual rules for their specific shiptype as everyone else, they have the protection of players, plus CONCORD, plus random Minmatarr spawn navy that could have been fielded. But if someone does manage to pull that operation out against all those odds, he should have a chance to kill them.

But, I agree definitely on not all events being a matter of shooting, and agree as well with the importance of making an event out of it instead of only a news item. If I'd had been a Minmatarr, I'd love to have been there to escort them, but I would also have liked to have to make sure they get there alive, so my actions count. I remember having to escort an NPC in the events that led to FW, when the Defiants invaded Amarr, and all of us Amarrians having to organize the defense so the Minmatarr wouldn't kill him even if they outnumbered us as they did... and we pulled it out.

If you want to make an event of "debate" for example, or a speech in game, or something like that, maybe instead of placing them in ships in highsec they could have already been docked in Pator and leave it as a chat in local, for example, thus players wouldn't feel like they are doing nothing of importance, and you get a succesful event that focuses on the Rp and the discussion and such. Even, if announced this way, a lot of griefers and non-rpers might not have showed up and filled the chat with useless OOC smack talk (tried to read the logs and it was a pain!).

Then again, just my opinion. I've stated lots of time I love the work you guys are doing, and the Live Events team is one of the main reasons I am so happy to have returned to EVE, as their dissapearance was one of the reason I left it so many years ago. Just trying to bring some constructive criticism to improve the events for the future, if such a thing is possible.


This is a very well reasoned and level headed argument, and it's something we'll definitely take on board. As I've said previously, there were specific reasons why we chose to have the delegates fly in as we wanted to portray the arrival in a given way.

That said, we're always open to constructive criticism and we're glad you've enjoyed what we've put together so far. There's a lot more coming over the next few months now that the initial groundwork is done Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-02-14 06:48:40 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
You guys are pretty much losing all crediblity here. You're nailing CCP falcon, one man of the amazing team that made it possible for players to influence the storyline more than ever before, to the cross for one event where he has to resort to GOD-modding (which in the RP world is another word for being GM) a ship to be nearly impossible to kill, while he does not (yet) have better tools at his disposal.
And you're implying that you couldn't care less about the outcome or actor invincibility, as long as you get to blow the ship up. You know you are showing your true colours with those kind of statements?

I agree with Seraphim, Falcon will likely not cater to goon ganklust, and keep the target audience for the RP live events in mind, the RP community. Most goons here fail to understand basic RP principles aplied to a MMORPG with limited RP GM tools.


Here's what I expected to happen: TTI goes boom, delegate survives and is injured, or dies or what not, but the story continues by A: the delegate gets to an escape pod B: they get a new delegate and instead of flying in a TTI, they take a force recon ship, with a cloak to Pator instead of a shiny battleship. The story takes a minor detour, players get to affect it, but it turns out roughly the same. The RP equivalent of magician's choice.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Janeos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-02-14 06:50:05 UTC
Seriously, the best solution to gankers you could come up with was to break the sandbox?
Ephphatha
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-02-14 07:00:13 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
Vae: I think most RP-ers would conclude from the news item that the ship would be VERY hard, if not impossible to kill. It's an OOC comment wrapped in an IC sentence.

It's a battleship. I would've expected around 500k ehp. I wasn't on the event so I didn't even bother planning for it, but I whipped something up in EFT anyway to see how ridiculous a tank would be possible using ingame items as that is what was probably planned for.

Tempest Tribal Issue, Dualtank (Pastebin of EFT Textblock)

598k EHP (not counting fleet boost/boosters). This is in the realm of being killable by a determined fleet but would be very hard to do. If a support fleet was present, they would have plenty of time to react and attack the aggressors or use logistics to repair the ship.

For reference, Freighters have around 170-200k EHP. Jump Freighters have around 320-360k EHP. A combat fit TFI has ~200k EHP

Che Biko wrote:
You guys are pretty much losing all crediblity here. You're nailing CCP falcon, one man of the amazing team that made it possible for players to influence the storyline more than ever before, to the cross for one event where he has to resort to GOD-modding (which in the RP world is another word for being GM) a ship to be nearly impossible to kill, while he does not (yet) have better tools at his disposal.

You know what would've made this ship impossible to kill? A support fleet. A decent amount of logistics ships, some ewar ships, some dps ships. In past events CCP have formed up a fleet of 30-50 ships, that's perfectly sufficient to defend a ship in highsec especially with the new aggression mechanics.

I'm not arguing that we should've been able to blow it up no matter what, but it would've been great to be able to even make a dent in the ships shields or engage in a battle with a determined defense fleet.

Having a single unescorted ship flying around that didn't even show signs of shield damage after being fired on by 25 ships is not a great player experience.
CCP Falcon
#51 - 2013-02-14 07:13:46 UTC
Ephphatha wrote:
Che Biko wrote:
Vae: I think most RP-ers would conclude from the news item that the ship would be VERY hard, if not impossible to kill. It's an OOC comment wrapped in an IC sentence.

It's a battleship. I would've expected around 500k ehp. I wasn't on the event so I didn't even bother planning for it, but I whipped something up in EFT anyway to see how ridiculous a tank would be possible using ingame items as that is what was probably planned for.

Tempest Tribal Issue, Dualtank (Pastebin of EFT Textblock)

598k EHP (not counting fleet boost/boosters). This is in the realm of being killable by a determined fleet but would be very hard to do. If a support fleet was present, they would have plenty of time to react and attack the aggressors or use logistics to repair the ship.

For reference, Freighters have around 170-200k EHP. Jump Freighters have around 320-360k EHP. A combat fit TFI has ~200k EHP

Che Biko wrote:
You guys are pretty much losing all crediblity here. You're nailing CCP falcon, one man of the amazing team that made it possible for players to influence the storyline more than ever before, to the cross for one event where he has to resort to GOD-modding (which in the RP world is another word for being GM) a ship to be nearly impossible to kill, while he does not (yet) have better tools at his disposal.

You know what would've made this ship impossible to kill? A support fleet. A decent amount of logistics ships, some ewar ships, some dps ships. In past events CCP have formed up a fleet of 30-50 ships, that's perfectly sufficient to defend a ship in highsec especially with the new aggression mechanics.

I'm not arguing that we should've been able to blow it up no matter what, but it would've been great to be able to even make a dent in the ships shields or engage in a battle with a determined defense fleet.

Having a single unescorted ship flying around that didn't even show signs of shield damage after being fired on by 25 ships is not a great player experience.


The issue with theorycrafting like this is that we're restricted to fitting stock T1 and T2 base meta level modules so that we don't inject massive amounts of ISK into the economy via the dropping of high end loot in the event that actors are killed. Even basic faction gear is off the table for this reason.

I do agree with your sentiment though, and you're putting a well balanced and reasonable argument that will be taken into account going forward Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-02-14 07:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
CCP Falcon wrote:


The issue with theorycrafting like this is that we're restricted to fitting stock T1 and T2 base meta level modules so that we don't inject massive amounts of ISK into the economy via the dropping of high end loot in the event that actors are killed. Even basic faction gear is off the table for this reason.

I do agree with your sentiment though, and you're putting a well balanced and reasonable argument that will be taken into account going forward Smile


Faction loot doesn't create new isk (the common definition of "injection") it just transfers it from one player to another.



Sorry. It's a pet peeve. The reasons for the choice are still pretty clear, though, at least to anyone who remembers old live events. So, carry on! P


e: Ephphatha and Seraphim are (more eloquently) making the sort of point I tried to make (very poorly) earlier on Twitter. Scriptedness is fine and to be expected at times, it just came off as hamfisted this time. Some people are just taking it more personally than others. Straight

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#53 - 2013-02-14 07:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Here's what I expected to happen: TTI goes boom, delegate survives and is injured, or dies or what not, but the story continues by A: the delegate gets to an escape pod B: they get a new delegate and instead of flying in a TTI, they take a force recon ship, with a cloak to Pator instead of a shiny battleship. The story takes a minor detour, players get to affect it, but it turns out roughly the same.
This is a fine illustration of what I'm trying to point out: You don't consider it a problem if you can't affect the story significantly as long as you get to blow up the ship.

I'll try to make this clear:

Your arguments:
Not being able to affect the outcome of the story significantly = bad.
Ship blown up + not being able to affect the outcome of story significantly = good
This leads me to conclude:
Blowing up ship = the only significant way to influence storyline.

I disagree with that, and I pity you for seeing it that way.

Ephphatha:
You may be right about that fit being hard to kill. I'll take your word for it.

When it comes to the support fleet, I'm sure that if the events team had the manpower or the tools available to them to do such a thing, they would do it. They would in fact have scouts, keep threats at a distance as a precaution, and have a perimeter around the tempest that included warp bubbles.
But I don't think they have the proper resources, it's not that they don't want to do it that way, they just can't do it that way.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-02-14 07:25:47 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Here's what I expected to happen: TTI goes boom, delegate survives and is injured, or dies or what not, but the story continues by A: the delegate gets to an escape pod B: they get a new delegate and instead of flying in a TTI, they take a force recon ship, with a cloak to Pator instead of a shiny battleship. The story takes a minor detour, players get to affect it, but it turns out roughly the same.
This is a fine illustration of what I'm trying to point out: You don't consider it a problem if you can't affect the story significantly as long as you get to blow up the ship.

I'll try to make this clear:

Your arguments:
Not being able to affect the story significantly = bad.
Ship blown up + not being able to affect story significantly = good
This leads me to conclude:
Blowing up ship = the only significant way to influence storyline.

I disagree with that, and I pity you for seeing it that way.

Ephphatha:
You may be right about that fit being hard to kill. I'll take your word for it.

When it comes to the support fleet, I'm sure that if the events team had the manpower or the tools available to them to do such a thing, they would do it. They would in fact have scouts, keep threats at a distance as a precaution, and have a perimeter around the tempest that included warp bubbles.
But I don't think they have the proper resources, it's not that they don't want to do it that way, they just can't do it that way.


Making them get a new delegate or some such would affect the story. Injuring them, the same. I didn't expect the whole plot line to be shelved because of one gank. Blowing up the ship was a concrete action that would be pointed to. It might not affect the ending, but it would definitely change how the ending was achieved.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

CCP Falcon
#55 - 2013-02-14 07:27:35 UTC
mynnna wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


The issue with theorycrafting like this is that we're restricted to fitting stock T1 and T2 base meta level modules so that we don't inject massive amounts of ISK into the economy via the dropping of high end loot in the event that actors are killed. Even basic faction gear is off the table for this reason.

I do agree with your sentiment though, and you're putting a well balanced and reasonable argument that will be taken into account going forward Smile


Faction loot doesn't create new isk (the common definition of "injection") it just transfers it from one player to another.



Sorry. It's a pet peeve. Carry on! P


e: Ephphatha and Seraphim are (more eloquently) making the sort of point I tried to make (very poorly) earlier on Twitter. Scriptedness is fine and to be expected at times, it just came off as hamfisted this time. Some people are just taking it more personally than others. Straight


It's more the fact that if we use high end modules for ship fittings and they drop, they're being added to the game via the wrong means rather than being part of an extremely rare drop. This isn't something we want to do, and it's something that can have an adverse effect on the economy. Coupled with that, we don't want events to be seen as just something that people can gank for high end loot.

In the same respect I hate scripting, and this is the first time I've ever put any form of control measures on an ingame event, purely due to the fact of the nature of it. It's been interesting to judge reaction, and there's some valid points from both sides of the fence that have been relayed among all the noise.

Thanks for taking the time to make a well reasoned and structured post. Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

CCP Falcon
#56 - 2013-02-14 07:30:54 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
When it comes to the support fleet, I'm sure that if the events team had the manpower or the tools available to them to do such a thing, they would do it. They would in fact have scouts, keep threats at a distance as a precaution, and have a perimeter around the tempest that included warp bubbles.
But I don't think they have the proper resources, it's not that they don't want to do it that way, they just can't do it that way.


This is one of the primary issues we have, but we're attempting to fix it Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2013-02-14 07:31:26 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
The issue with theorycrafting like this is that we're restricted to fitting stock T1 and T2 base meta level modules so that we don't inject massive amounts of ISK into the economy via the dropping of high end loot in the event that actors are killed. Even basic faction gear is off the table for this reason.

I do agree with your sentiment though, and you're putting a well balanced and reasonable argument that will be taken into account going forward Smile



A T2 tanked TTI with mindlinked Legion bonuses and HG Slaves (which won't drop, obviously) gets ~480K EHP. Add armor hardwirings and you're close to, if not exceeding 500k EHP. Toss in evasive modules like a micro jump drive, target spectrum breaker etc. and you're presenting something that can be ganked, but not with any ease. The participants in the event would actually be participants rather than observers who don't matter because nothing's going to happen anyway.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-02-14 07:39:56 UTC
Andski wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
The issue with theorycrafting like this is that we're restricted to fitting stock T1 and T2 base meta level modules so that we don't inject massive amounts of ISK into the economy via the dropping of high end loot in the event that actors are killed. Even basic faction gear is off the table for this reason.

I do agree with your sentiment though, and you're putting a well balanced and reasonable argument that will be taken into account going forward Smile



A T2 tanked TTI with mindlinked Legion bonuses and HG Slaves (which won't drop, obviously) gets ~480K EHP. Add armor hardwirings and you're close to, if not exceeding 500k EHP. Toss in evasive modules like a micro jump drive, target spectrum breaker etc. and you're presenting something that can be ganked, but not with any ease. The participants in the event would actually be participants rather than observers who don't matter because nothing's going to happen anyway.


I had not thought of a MJD, but this would have been a perfect event to use it on. MiniLuv forms at the gate, TTI hits MJD, and Warr Akini is doing his best Darth Helmet impression. By all means, make it hard, just not impossible.

The fact that it was impossible is what's upsetting people.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Rina Kondur
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#59 - 2013-02-14 07:41:17 UTC
Fuujin wrote:
Forget it was Goonswarm.

What if it was a group actively signed up for Amarr faction warfare? They hear of these upjumped slaves having a meeting, seek to send a little message, careen through Minmatar space in force with the Republic Fleet on their heels, fly in to take their shot....


...and have precisely zero chance of killing the ship, because it's a battleship with devhaxed supercarrier level EHP. That is literally impossible to exist without GM mods and implants.


How, precisely, is that enabling player content? Just run your little events with polaris frigates next time. At least then the invulnerability will be telegraphed.


While I wasn't present in the fleet, I do know that a small group of us from Amarr set out with the intention of disrupting today's events. Be it for RP reasons or just to have some fun at a live event, it doesn't really matter. Needless to say, our pilots were strongly disappointed in the choices made by CCP. While we only brought Thrashers and assorted ships, we never really expected to kill them, just to have some fun.

CCP had gone through all the trouble of amassing escort fleets full of logi and ewar, but why? There was literally no reason for player interaction in this event. Players in no way shape or form determined any outcome of this. If it was just to further a storyline, an ISD write up would have sufficed.
Quebber
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-02-14 07:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Quebber
Falcon this kind of thing lessens the sandbox as a whole, yes I understand the frustration of trying to create an event and having it go beyond the "trashed by players" BUT you broke a golden rule of Role play and immersion.

You could have within game mechanics done so many things to make this a secure setup hell he could have traveled in cloaked ships.
Instead you poured concrete into the sandbox and that is a mistake of some one clearly out of his depth.