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Different idea to bring more conflict in wormholes
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Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-01-30 22:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Borlag Crendraven
Liang Nuren wrote:
I just want to be clear: you mention in the OP that we wouldn't have to scan these down. Are you referring to that in the sense that I don't scan down incoming statics (good) or that it's a WH that appears on the overview like a gate (bad)?

-Liang


No, that refers solely to the practice of collapsing the static and intentionally not warping to the new one, so that it's not accessible from the other side. Wormholes only appear on the other side once this is done, thus this method is making it extremely easy to basically shut down your entire system for the duration of your farming operations. Only thing you'd need to keep attention to, is new incoming dynamics.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#82 - 2013-01-30 22:07:38 UTC
I'm fine with that. On the low class end of things, creating a C3 superhighway that had better connectedness with C4s and the C2 superhighway would make things a lot better.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-01-30 22:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Borlag Crendraven
C4's definitely need to be fixed so that the only reason to live in one, isn't about being as far from everyone as humanly possible. They are simply too remote and have very little incentive otherwise as well compared to a life in C3's, and as such way too many people skip them entirely when they're thinking about moving up in the wormhole class they live in.
Taz Edenrunner
Kit TBR
#84 - 2013-01-30 22:34:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Taz Edenrunner
the 2 main issues I've encountered when moving up the WH classes in corps living in C1/C2 then into C3/C4 finally into C5/C6 is:

a. skill requirements (aka the Logi 5 grind)
often newer WH corps that start in C1/C2 find that running C1/C2 sites can be done in small groups with a little active tank and no logi.
Moving up to C3/C4 means groups starts to need logi and we all know the guardian/basi skill path can be long and painful, with the balance of T1 logi that should ease the path into T2 logis, once in C5/C6 then logi 5 is is cleary the perfered option.
Given time I believe we'll start seeing a increase on the C1/C2 corps grow and start to move upwards now that there is a good path through T1 logi ships while training logi 4/5

b. security
Smaller corps are often easy targets for corp thefts, if you build up a nice collection of ships in the first few months in a WH then lose the lot through theft its soul destroying
Smaller corps often dont have the supply & logistics of the larger corps so they dont have the ability to support 1 POS per person/smaller group of people
Once CCP look at improvements to POSes hopefully allowing for increased POS security limiting corp thefts (unless the CEO/directors are morons)

Improvements to these two aspects and while they may be more med/long term options to increasing WH population but they would provide a good base for new blood in WHs
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#85 - 2013-01-31 23:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Strom Crendraven
chris elliot wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
As this seemed to have been buried in the other thread...

More unpredictability for wormholes is how you increase conflict....



Not really, it will increase the opportunity for cheap ganks that are hella boring but that's about it. If people are going to fight you they are going to fight you, if not they are just going to POS up and go play WoT or something.

The people posting on these forums about finding ways to make wormholes interesting or more fights are almost all universally from groups who have reputations for blowing "fights" out of the water with t3's balls and 3-1 odds. People see you in the chain and decide "nope nope nope nope". And roll you away with all haste, or if you do find them by a direct roll, they just sit in their towers and give you the boredom treatment until you go away. No one is going to intentionally jump on you when they know what it is you do all the time. You make it unfun to fight you and so no one wants to fight you.

What we have on our hands is a product purely of our own making. We have made this lovely little bed of ours now shut up and lay in it.


This +100, tired of reading all this crap about increasing conflict. If you think WH's have become stagnant it is because you and your mega-corp have made it boring for yourselves. Go drop a stick in a low end WH and live their by yourself with just a couple of alts instead of a T3 blob or Cap fleet. If life is still boring then just f***ing leave WH life. Quit trying to make changes that will screw things up for the people who are happy with current WH life. And NO i am not purely a WH farmer before you start flaming, i run my sites, roll my statics and hunt/harass other corps in their WH's, and shoot at damn near everything that enters my WH. But, yes when you come into my WH with 35 ships im gonna sit at my dickstar and give you the finger.
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#86 - 2013-02-01 00:11:24 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
As this seemed to have been buried in the other thread...

More unpredictability for wormholes is how you increase conflict, for example by adding a completely random second static to each wormhole (by this I mean the connection can change between high sec, low sec, null sec and all classes of wormholes and once it collapses, it would be randomized again) and by removing the requirement to scan down your new static before it's visible on the other side. This removes the methods used currently for safe farming, and as such automatically encourages more fights without changing the actual balance of the game one bit (ie. the holes would still be mass restricted just like they are now).

By increasing the amount of connections, you increase the chances of encounters with actual players, thus naturally increasing PvP without changing game balance or introducing any new mechanics. By making those connections more unpredictable you remove the other problem that just about all active wormhole corporations have, which is running into the same groups all the time. While accomplishing both of those, this would also bring some more danger into site running by making it more difficult to create safe conditions for doing so. Obviously you could still reduce the mass to critical and bubble up every time you start your daily farming, but I really don't see any real drawbacks in making these proposed changes.

And no, I don't consider the troubles of farmers to be a drawback in the least. Nor do I consider it a drawback that this would make C4 holes less secluded.


Don't be stupid, please. Everybody who lives in a WH does some kind of WH "farming" even your corp. If it gets to the point where people cant make any ISK in WH's they will move out, decreasing WH population and having the exact opposite effect that you claim to desire. If people have too many incoming connections or cannot secure their WH for their chosen ISK making time (especially the small WH corps) they will stop mining, stop running sites, run out of money to build ships, get bored, and eventually move out. And lets get one thing straight for everybody, killing mining ships, scanners, PvE fit ships, and transports isn't PvP, its ganking. Yea I do it like everybody else but lets call it what it is and it is certainly not a challenge. So, your proposals would 1. Increase ganks (hats off to your mad PvP skills) 2. Decrease WH population most likely. What will be your fix when you have to whine about even less people to gank or fight than you have now?
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-02-01 00:19:20 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Don't be stupid, please. Everybody who lives in a WH does some kind of WH "farming" even your corp. If it gets to the point where people cant make any ISK in WH's they will move out, decreasing WH population and having the exact opposite effect that you claim to desire. If people have too many incoming connections or cannot secure their WH for their chosen ISK making time (especially the small WH corps) they will stop mining, stop running sites, run out of money to build ships, get bored, and eventually move out. And lets get one thing straight for everybody, killing mining ships, scanners, PvE fit ships, and transports isn't PvP, its ganking. Yea I do it like everybody else but lets call it what it is and it is certainly not a challenge. So, your proposals would 1. Increase ganks (hats off to your mad PvP skills) 2. Decrease WH population most likely. What will be your fix when you have to whine about even less people to gank or fight than you have now?


Reading comprehension, sometimes it might be good to have some.

Nothing that is proposed in this thread by anyone would prevent farming one bit, all it would do is make it harder to shutdown your entire system via the collapsing of your statics. If you can't work around a simple issue like that, perhaps you really need to reconsider the life in wormholes yourself. The way I see things is that in wormholes it shouldn't ever be possible to make it secure for yourself. As it is right now, it is ridiculously easy.
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#88 - 2013-02-01 00:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Strom Crendraven
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Don't be stupid, please. Everybody who lives in a WH does some kind of WH "farming" even your corp. If it gets to the point where people cant make any ISK in WH's they will move out, decreasing WH population and having the exact opposite effect that you claim to desire. If people have too many incoming connections or cannot secure their WH for their chosen ISK making time (especially the small WH corps) they will stop mining, stop running sites, run out of money to build ships, get bored, and eventually move out. And lets get one thing straight for everybody, killing mining ships, scanners, PvE fit ships, and transports isn't PvP, its ganking. Yea I do it like everybody else but lets call it what it is and it is certainly not a challenge. So, your proposals would 1. Increase ganks (hats off to your mad PvP skills) 2. Decrease WH population most likely. What will be your fix when you have to whine about even less people to gank or fight than you have now?


Reading comprehension, sometimes it might be good to have some.

Nothing that is proposed in this thread by anyone would prevent farming one bit, all it would do is make it harder to shutdown your entire system via the collapsing of your statics. If you can't work around a simple issue like that, perhaps you really need to reconsider the life in wormholes yourself. The way I see things is that in wormholes it shouldn't ever be possible to make it secure for yourself. As it is right now, it is ridiculously easy.


Ridiculously easy for small corps, I think not. And speaking of reading comprehension, i never claimed that your proposed changes would prevent farming, just make it difficult to the point that some people would quit trying. If you lose more in ships than you can make in your WH then alot of people would just give it up as there is no up side. No i think i'll stay in my WH. I just wont cry about making it too boring for myself. If I get bored I will find something else to do.
DrBmN
Lippstadt Creed
Solyaris Chtonium
#89 - 2013-02-01 01:00:25 UTC
WHs are good as they are right now.

More statics or even K162's would drive smaller corporations back in to hi sec, like the sir above described. Often WHs are considered just like a base, a small part of this huge universe that you can call "home".

We all know that there is always a bigger fish arround, no need to turn our belowed Whs in to a highway. There is always a possibility that a k162 spawns, so talking about how secure it is or "locked down" isn't correct.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#90 - 2013-02-01 05:08:15 UTC
DrBmN wrote:
WHs are good as they are right now.

More statics or even K162's would drive smaller corporations back in to hi sec, like the sir above described. Often WHs are considered just like a base, a small part of this huge universe that you can call "home".

We all know that there is always a bigger fish arround, no need to turn our belowed Whs in to a highway. There is always a possibility that a k162 spawns, so talking about how secure it is or "locked down" isn't correct.


There's no need to play up how insecure WHs are here. We've all been around the block and know how tight you can lock them down with the static crashing technique. Yeah you might get an inbound but it's relatively rare, very easy to detect, and very easy to fix.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#91 - 2013-02-01 17:29:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
DrBmN wrote:
WHs are good as they are right now.

More statics or even K162's would drive smaller corporations back in to hi sec, like the sir above described. Often WHs are considered just like a base, a small part of this huge universe that you can call "home".

We all know that there is always a bigger fish arround, no need to turn our belowed Whs in to a highway. There is always a possibility that a k162 spawns, so talking about how secure it is or "locked down" isn't correct.


There's no need to play up how insecure WHs are here. We've all been around the block and know how tight you can lock them down with the static crashing technique. Yeah you might get an inbound but it's relatively rare, very easy to detect, and very easy to fix.

-Liang


Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#92 - 2013-02-01 17:35:51 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
DrBmN wrote:
WHs are good as they are right now.

More statics or even K162's would drive smaller corporations back in to hi sec, like the sir above described. Often WHs are considered just like a base, a small part of this huge universe that you can call "home".

We all know that there is always a bigger fish arround, no need to turn our belowed Whs in to a highway. There is always a possibility that a k162 spawns, so talking about how secure it is or "locked down" isn't correct.


There's no need to play up how insecure WHs are here. We've all been around the block and know how tight you can lock them down with the static crashing technique. Yeah you might get an inbound but it's relatively rare, very easy to detect, and very easy to fix.

-Liang


Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.


We got 4 k162's yesterday. 1 so far today. 2 the day before. Prolly a week with nothing. Seems to go in waves.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-02-01 17:46:37 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.


Of course the rest of us cannot even begin to fathom the incredible stress that comes with those two occasions a day that you might have more than 0 risk to go about your business...

This is exactly what I mean in the OP, wormholes can be made way too safe way too easily. Next you'll probably be complaining about them afk cloakies, right?
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#94 - 2013-02-01 17:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Strom Crendraven
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.


Of course the rest of us cannot even begin to fathom the incredible stress that comes with those two occasions a day that you might have more than 0 risk to go about your business...

This is exactly what I mean in the OP, wormholes can be made way too safe way too easily. Next you'll probably be complaining about them afk cloakies, right?


Nope im not complaining at all about anything, you started the thread about changes YOU want to see to make YOUR experience more enjoyable and screw everybody else who doesnt agree with you. I'm just voicing my opinion of your flawed thinking. But, sincerely my appologies, i didnt realize this was one of those "you must agree with me" posts. I will refrain from disagreeing further with you and let you go back to being elite and deluding yourself into thinking more than five people agree with you on what is best for all WH dwellers.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#95 - 2013-02-01 18:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.


I'd say it depends on the class you're in. C2s are hardish to lock up and you'll have to close a new incoming static every couple of days, but C3s and C4s are eminently easy and you can go weeks without an intrusion. I have no experience in C5/C6 and would never intentionally comment on them. :)

-Liang

Ed: It is a small lie to say I have no experience in C5s. I have less than a month worth of experience in C5 and C4 each. Both of those were somewhat unpleasant.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#96 - 2013-02-01 18:11:12 UTC
And for the record I am absolutely 100% satified with my WH experience as is, wouldn't change a thing. The day I find myself starting a thread whining or agreeing with a whiner about having to change WH mechanics to fit my play style I will find something else to do as I have stated before.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#97 - 2013-02-01 18:16:33 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:
[

This +100, tired of reading all this crap about increasing conflict. If you think WH's have become stagnant it is because you and your mega-corp have made it boring for yourselves. Go drop a stick in a low end WH and live their by yourself with just a couple of alts instead of a T3 blob or Cap fleet. If life is still boring then just f***ing leave WH life. Quit trying to make changes that will screw things up for the people who are happy with current WH life. And NO i am not purely a WH farmer before you start flaming, i run my sites, roll my statics and hunt/harass other corps in their WH's, and shoot at damn near everything that enters my WH. But, yes when you come into my WH with 35 ships im gonna sit at my dickstar and give you the finger.


This is a pretty dead on post imho.

No trolling please
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#98 - 2013-02-01 18:36:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.


I'd say it depends on the class you're in. C2s are hardish to lock up and you'll have to close a new incoming static every couple of days, but C3s and C4s are eminently easy and you can go weeks without an intrusion. I have no experience in C5/C6 and would never intentionally comment on them. :)

-Liang

Ed: It is a small lie to say I have no experience in C5s. I have less than a month worth of experience in C5 and C4 each. Both of those were somewhat unpleasant.



Not sure what C3 you lived in, but during my time in a C3 I was tempted to put up a virtual stoplight to control traffic. Given that C3's are probably the most popular farming static I'd say we have at least one incoming k162 5 times a week on average. Maybe daily if you consider the days where we had more than one.

I'd say C1 and C4 are the quietest. C2's are quite busy, probaby due to the popularity of C2's in general, so they are fairly well populated. Dunno on C5+ as I haven't ventured that high yet.
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#99 - 2013-02-01 18:39:55 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:
[

This +100, tired of reading all this crap about increasing conflict. If you think WH's have become stagnant it is because you and your mega-corp have made it boring for yourselves. Go drop a stick in a low end WH and live their by yourself with just a couple of alts instead of a T3 blob or Cap fleet. If life is still boring then just f***ing leave WH life. Quit trying to make changes that will screw things up for the people who are happy with current WH life. And NO i am not purely a WH farmer before you start flaming, i run my sites, roll my statics and hunt/harass other corps in their WH's, and shoot at damn near everything that enters my WH. But, yes when you come into my WH with 35 ships im gonna sit at my dickstar and give you the finger.


This is a pretty dead on post imho.



I would agree. Given that we are one of those "small wormhole corps who apparently contribute little to nothing to the WH community", we've found that typical PVP opportunities are the random gank of an unsuspecting PVE pilot. Or we run into a roaming gang far to big to take on.

I personally am not anti PVP by any means. I'm not very good at it either. I'll throw myself into a tough fight, but I'm not terribly interested in throwing myself into a pack of ships that to be 99.9% chance of suicide.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#100 - 2013-02-01 18:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Not sure what C3 you lived in, but during my time in a C3 I was tempted to put up a virtual stoplight to control traffic. Given that C3's are probably the most popular farming static I'd say we have at least one incoming k162 5 times a week on average. Maybe daily if you consider the days where we had more than one.

I'd say C1 and C4 are the quietest. C2's are quite busy, probaby due to the popularity of C2's in general, so they are fairly well populated. Dunno on C5+ as I haven't ventured that high yet.


How weird. We occupied J110706 for quite a while and we virtually never saw incoming statics - seriously maybe once a month? We were there for the low sec static though, so that was fine with us. We only left that system because I got banned from Eve and most of my friends ultimately quit.

I was eventually unbanned and we moved into a series of C2s (low sec/C2 statics) to gain access to the same low sec pew pew with a side of C2 superhighway. The C2s never really had the same distribution of acceptable low sec exits so most of the corp has bounced back into Heretic Army or quit Eve again. I'm still idling C2s but it's a solo affair for me now.

-Liang

Ed: For what it's worth, I'm near 100% convinced that statics pointing to k-space are tied to specific constellations. The last C2 we occupied (as a group) had a super high affinity for like 3 constellations in Genesis, Aridia, and Solitude. Needless to say, that made for a ****** low sec pirate experience.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.