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Different idea to bring more conflict in wormholes

Author
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-01-30 13:03:23 UTC
So'Cari wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I really don't see how it'd be that big of a change to the current methods used to make safe farming conditions:

Crashing part would increase the required effort perhaps by 2-3 minutes, a complete non-issue. Anchoring bubbles is 1-2 minutes more (you don't have to sit there idle when they are already anchoring).

If they're 5 guys online in a C2 -> C4 with no Orca pilots then putting 2 holes crit with BS or smaller takes more than 3 minutes. How much extra work is really beside the point though. Any amount of additional work for anyone doing anything is stupid if it doesn't also have the effect of increasing the thing you want.


Not everything that players want, are actually good for the game. Just look at how many people were exploiting the incursions or faction warfare before the changes, players wanted the easy isk, was that good for the game overall? Throughout this forum you will see plenty of complaints about wormholes stagnating, about abandoned sticks loitering around, about there not being enough conflict, good fights or any other kinds of engagements between different parties. Wouldn't it be worth changing that, even at the expense of a minimal amount of extra work required to make something that is already very easy to begin with?

Note that I'm not forcing the idea in the OP for anyone, just arguing against differing opinions. Like Qvar's suggestion earlier displays, I'm more than willing to change my own stand too if a compelling enough argument opens up, which is why I would now leave all known space wormholes out of the equasion for that random static.
So'Cari
Dark Venture Corporation
#62 - 2013-01-30 13:31:59 UTC
So'Cari wrote:

Seriously, I'm saying it as nicely as possible but in two replies you've completely ignored the main suggestion that the intrisic anti-roam properties of W-Space (definitely a feature not a bug) contribute much more to the absence of 'conflict' (of the kind you seem to be interested in) than the balance of PvE risk/reward (or whatever you're trying to effect by introducing more connections of whatever type).

And what about this part?
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-01-30 13:35:11 UTC
I don't really see it as roaming as such, it's a wrong word to describe what we do for sure. There's not much actual roaming going on when you rage roll holes in hopes of finding something interesting. It's still the closest thing we have to roaming as sooner or later the chain will end in a k-space exit anyway and there's only so much scanning you can do before it becomes pointless due to the long routes that exponentially increase the changes of you not making it back home if you do end up finding something of interest. That said, given the right circumstances, I have no issues throwing myself into my doom if the outcome is a great fight, win or lose, doesn't matter.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#64 - 2013-01-30 15:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ExookiZ
I believe that the easiest way to increase conflict is honestly reduce how many systems there are. I am not going to expand on how ccp would handle this. As it is irrelevant.

The problem isnt " not enough people in wh space" or "too many farmers". The problem is that the WH playerbase is spread across 2500 WHs, MOST all in tiny corporations. Rather than group up into formidable larger groups that are more likely to roam and pvp we instead have hundreds if not a thousand+ of 1-20 man WH corps. To be honest they contribute little to nothing to the WH community Save some laughs or easy ganks which rarely are that fun. By its nature very few corporations that are smaller than us are willing to engage. Without even knowing who me or my corporation is, a simple lookup shows 170 members and they instantly give up by posing or logging off.

C6 space has the fewest # of whs, and conflict is in no short supply here. We run into people often and frequently have great fights. No one is concerned over evictions or pos burns ( usually). They are boring and no one cares. It isnt about making people fight over systems or making us run into eachother more often, it is about making more corporations willing and interested in fighting. I am not condoning blobbing but at the end of the day whether a fight happens or not is up to numbers. I am not going to knowingly engage a fleet 3 times my size.

I am not saying force people into higher class wormholes, just slash how many there are. There are 500+ class 5s, 80% are occupied by inactive farmers or empty. We see similar results in lower class WHs. With so many empty systems why bother merging and joining a larger team?If it isnt empty its occupied by some tiny group that has no interest in fighting.

Tl;DR you can make us run into each other as much as you want but if were bigger than you its unlikely youll fight us, and vice versa. I isn't "being a carebear" or being a pussy its just logic.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#65 - 2013-01-30 15:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
^ yeah agreed but i don't think CCP are going to start removing systems this late in the game. Realistically the only thing CCP could do to achieve the same goal would be to increase the number of static/roaming wormholes.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-01-30 15:36:27 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
The problem is that the WH playerbase is spread across 2500 WHs, MOST all in tiny corporations. Rather than group up into formidable larger groups that are more likely to roam and pvp we instead have hundreds if not a thousand+ of 1-20 man WH corps.
Increasing WH population is 100x better solution than making wspace smaller.
Daenor Falknor
HunTim Trading Corp
#67 - 2013-01-30 16:57:38 UTC
More connections will make W-space FEEL smaller, just like roads/railroads/airplanes make RL feel smaller.

Fixing POS issues will allow those tiny corporations to grow. When that 10-man corp that was afraid of your 75-man corp grows to 40, they might very well be willing to engage (not knowing for sure if you have 20 or 60 online to fight their 30 online).
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-01-30 18:03:38 UTC
Daenor Falknor wrote:
More connections will make W-space FEEL smaller, just like roads/railroads/airplanes make RL feel smaller.

Fixing POS issues will allow those tiny corporations to grow. When that 10-man corp that was afraid of your 75-man corp grows to 40, they might very well be willing to engage (not knowing for sure if you have 20 or 60 online to fight their 30 online).


Agreed on both counts, removing the amount of wormhole systems will pose so many new kinds of problems by the sheer virtue of people who'd get evicted by CCP themselves. This is partially why I approached the problem from the other direction entirely and started thinking of other ways to increase those odds of encounters. I also wanted to come up with a method that doesn't change the balance of the game at all, not even by making some system worth more than the other. In short, I was looking for a way to increase risk for everyone and not favor neither the small guys nor the big guys out there.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#69 - 2013-01-30 18:23:49 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I also wanted to come up with a method that doesn't change the balance of the game at all, not even by making some system worth more than the other.


I'm curious how you continue to make the claim that it doesn't change the balance of the game at all. That's patently false - it does change the balance of the game. It potentially increases interaction (provided everyone is in the same timezone) and makes it far easier for the C5/C6 guys to roll a 20-30 man T3 fleet into someone's C2 home.

I just don't see that being a good thing. You guys see the same people over and over because they're the only people that can realistically fight you regularly.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-01-30 19:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Borlag Crendraven
Liang Nuren wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I also wanted to come up with a method that doesn't change the balance of the game at all, not even by making some system worth more than the other.


I'm curious how you continue to make the claim that it doesn't change the balance of the game at all. That's patently false - it does change the balance of the game. It potentially increases interaction (provided everyone is in the same timezone) and makes it far easier for the C5/C6 guys to roll a 20-30 man T3 fleet into someone's C2 home.

I just don't see that being a good thing. You guys see the same people over and over because they're the only people that can realistically fight you regularly.

-Liang


Not even close to the truth. Just like everyone, no matter how big or small, we have our quiet hours all the same. Increased chances of smaller engagements as well as bigger engagements will only help this for everyone, not the opposite. If during those quiet hours we find some group of 10 or less guys roaming about, farming or whatever really, we don't magically get the people from the more active timezones on for a large fleet. We go with what we have.

Like said numerous times before, please just stop commenting on this issue as with each of your replies, you continue burying yourself even deeper by not even beginning to understand w-space or w-space issues. Your crusade to increase AU/NZ activity is much better done elsewhere and in a completely different format. Bitching about it is never the answer.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#71 - 2013-01-30 19:57:42 UTC
I specifically discounted timezones in that post, and still you QQ about it. Stop, and read the damn post.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End
#72 - 2013-01-30 20:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Svodola Darkfury
chris elliot wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
As this seemed to have been buried in the other thread...

More unpredictability for wormholes is how you increase conflict....



Not really, it will increase the opportunity for cheap ganks that are hella boring but that's about it. If people are going to fight you they are going to fight you, if not they are just going to POS up and go play WoT or something.

The people posting on these forums about finding ways to make wormholes interesting or more fights are almost all universally from groups who have reputations for blowing "fights" out of the water with t3's balls and 3-1 odds. People see you in the chain and decide "nope nope nope nope". And roll you away with all haste, or if you do find them by a direct roll, they just sit in their towers and give you the boredom treatment until you go away. No one is going to intentionally jump on you when they know what it is you do all the time. You make it unfun to fight you and so no one wants to fight you.

What we have on our hands is a product purely of our own making. We have made this lovely little bed of ours now shut up and lay in it.


This is 4 pages in I think and probably unlikely to be read by the [EDITED] poster of the above quote; but I really appreciate this statement. When we were starting out in our C2/C4 we bumped into Talocan United with our 7 or 8 man gang, and they brought 30 guys in various T1 or T2 ships into our hole. There was NOTHING we could do. The next 3 times we saw them, we just combat collapsed the hole, preventing any possible engagement.

The biggest problem in wormhole space is that people who do not want to fight do not have to unless you bash their tower, and even then it's just as likely that they're going to cut losses and move on. Sure, maybe you get around their defenses in C5/C6s occasionally because they're sieged, triaged, or getting blobbed by warp scram rats, but it's just a gank. They make up the cost of that dread in 3-4 sites.

The problem, as it stands, is similar to null-sec's problem; once they know you're there, they don't have to fight. We rely on the failures of our prey to get anything, but sooner or later the prey smartens up and the fun, easy ganks start to dry up. Unless we want to start "sov wars" in wormhole space (which most of us came out here to avoid) you just have to keep hunting the chain and hoping, and maybe ship down or use smaller fleets.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-01-30 20:12:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I specifically discounted timezones in that post, and still you QQ about it. Stop, and read the damn post.

-Liang


Perhaps that's because literally your every post reads like "look at me, I'm more experienced than all of you combined. I crusade for the little people and the people who don't even bother to log on", all without knowing facts.

Svodola, I do read this thread and continue commenting on it, which is evident if you simply read the thread instead of just skimming it. I don't see what you are describing as a problem with wormholes as such, but as a larger problem with the game itself. People are too scared to lose anything and forget what it's all about, having fun. To me that means fighting, whether winning or losing, it doesn't really even matter as like you said, even big losses can be recovered from very easily.

For a problem like that, there's very little that can be done by CCP in the game mechanics or elsewhere.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#74 - 2013-01-30 20:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I specifically discounted timezones in that post, and still you QQ about it. Stop, and read the damn post.

-Liang


Perhaps that's because literally your every post reads like "look at me, I'm more experienced than all of you combined. I crusade for the little people and the people who don't even bother to log on", all without knowing facts.

Svodola, I do read this thread and continue commenting on it, which is evident if you simply read the thread instead of just skimming it. I don't see what you are describing as a problem with wormholes as such, but as a larger problem with the game itself. People are too scared to lose anything and forget what it's all about, having fun. To me that means fighting, whether winning or losing, it doesn't really even matter as like you said, even big losses can be recovered from very easily.

For a problem like that, there's very little that can be done by CCP in the game mechanics or elsewhere.


I don't think it's reasonable to say that the lower class WH people are "bears" or "too scared to lose anything" when you're dropping 30 man T3/logi gangs on a 10 man corp. It's not that they're scared (though sometimes this is certainly true), it's that you blobbed the **** out of them. And you (plural) have a reputation of blobbing the **** out of people. And that's the only thing that your idea would encourage.

Again: you see the same people over and over because they are the only ones who can realistically fight you. The idea of random statics as you suggest simply increases the interaction of tiny C1/C2/C3 WH corps with mega C5/C6 WH corps. That's a bad thing.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-01-30 21:04:11 UTC
That's because your basic idea is flawed. I don't blame people for not bashing their heads against the wall against superior fleets, not everyone plays like I do nor should they. As for FC's reputation, one needs only to look our killboards to see that we often go against those superior numbers, for example throwing a single capital supported by subcapitals against a fleet of similar size that boasts 2-4 times the amount of capitals we do. Sure we have the ganks here and there but that's not what we're about at all nor is it what this thread is about. I didn't make the thread to get us more fights with new people, I know that realistically speaking the lower class holes don't have that many who fly with big fleets. The reason I made this thread is to make more encounters a reality for everyone, and that's a good thing.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#76 - 2013-01-30 21:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Once you start talking about throwing T3 blobs and capitals around, you've left the realm of anything that's reasonably experienced in low class wormholes. The interactions between C1-C3 and C5-C6 are just flat different. It's almost like they're not even the same kind of space - and in a very real sense that's true.

Again, I'm all for increasing good interaction but I'd be hard pressed to say a C2 connected to a C6 is a good interaction for anyone but the marauding C6 gank party. What would you say to splitting your idea into two classes of WHs: C1-C3 roving statics and C4-C6 roving statics?

-Liang

Ed: Also, a C2 with statics pointing at low sec / null sec / C2 would probably be my favorite WH ever.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Doctorkaba
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-01-30 21:45:56 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I specifically discounted timezones in that post, and still you QQ about it. Stop, and read the damn post.

-Liang


Perhaps that's because literally your every post reads like "look at me, I'm more experienced than all of you combined. I crusade for the little people and the people who don't even bother to log on", all without knowing facts.

Svodola, I do read this thread and continue commenting on it, which is evident if you simply read the thread instead of just skimming it. I don't see what you are describing as a problem with wormholes as such, but as a larger problem with the game itself. People are too scared to lose anything and forget what it's all about, having fun. To me that means fighting, whether winning or losing, it doesn't really even matter as like you said, even big losses can be recovered from very easily.

For a problem like that, there's very little that can be done by CCP in the game mechanics or elsewhere.



Literally what you just said was that you WANT small gangs to welp into your bigger ones to give you fun....? If this is what people should do, they you do it dude :). You should not engage those with a clear advantage that will kick your butt in 10secs if you do not want to, this is your choice. No one should be forced into an engagement that they don't want to fight (this doesnt include traps though, thats what being strategically better than the opponent means).

Maybe you should fly smaller gangs and welp into 30 man t3 blobs + caps more often if this is what you consider fun.

Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers!

Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-01-30 21:58:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Once you start talking about throwing T3 blobs and capitals around, you've left the realm of anything that's reasonably experienced in low class wormholes. The interactions between C1-C3 and C5-C6 are just flat different. It's almost like they're not even the same kind of space - and in a very real sense that's true.

Again, I'm all for increasing good interaction but I'd be hard pressed to say a C2 connected to a C6 is a good interaction for anyone but the marauding C6 gank party. What would you say to splitting your idea into two classes of WHs: C1-C3 roving statics and C4-C6 roving statics?

-Liang

Ed: Also, a C2 with statics pointing at low sec / null sec / C2 would probably be my favorite WH ever.


Finally at least one comment where you don't resort to name calling and start making at least some sensible alternative suggestions. Splitting it so that low class and higher class holes get different traffic from the randomized static does make sense, although at the same time the way you propose it would throw the c4 people straight into the wolves and pretty much exclude them from the possible good this could bring.

Doctorkaba; No I did not, I said that's something I do, not that I'd want everyone to do it. Additionally, that doesn't always result in being welped by the said fleet that's superior on paper, as has been demonstrated time and time again.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#79 - 2013-01-30 22:00:24 UTC
I just want to be clear: you mention in the OP that we wouldn't have to scan these down. Are you referring to that in the sense that I don't scan down incoming statics (good) or that it's a WH that appears on the overview like a gate (bad)?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#80 - 2013-01-30 22:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Glad to see you're making some good points at last Liang Smile

I agree that C5/C6 pvp is vastly different to C1-C4 pvp and if CCP added more high end to low end connections, it really wouldn't improve the quality of fights for either resident, but i think more high end to high end connections would.

I've only been living in a C6 for a couple months now and although i have been in some epic battles, they are few and far between and it's starting to feel like a rock, paper, scissors game. We need two things:
1. More reasons/opertunities fpor fights
2. More incentives for low end dwellers to aspire to move up to high end wormholes.