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The Next Expansion ...A REAL Expansion

Author
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
#1 - 2013-01-31 14:12:12 UTC
Posting this here because I like it and think needs Love (which it wont get in its original thread over the e-peen posturing).

For Your Consideration THE EXPANSION of New Eden.

Quote:
Its beginning to seem to me that alot of the problems associated with the issues posted in earlier threads stem from the map (universe).

Why not just extend it?

A bigger hisec and nullsec means more space for smaller corps and alliances to inhabit.

More plexes, missions stations, moon goo, roids - but all spread out more.

What if all these issues are caused by the fact that space is now too small?

Everyone is encroaching on everyone elses space which results in large alliance NAPs.

In fact the more I think about it and read, the more I see people overcomplicating the issue or trying to bend public opinion to their own advantage.

New Eden IS too small period.

Wheres the sense of adventure of roaming out into the wildernes??? gone - too many choke points.
Can't really count wormholes for this as they are really just fancy instances.

We all can see that New Eden is in fact a 2 dimensional map.

The nullsec 'donut' (not in recent political sense) needs more 'internal surface area' to expand (if you dont get it the hole in the donut is Hisec, and lowsec the border.

So imagine extending Hisec in two directions or more to minimally disturb the main political influences of the map (cant have them crying too much).

For example extend Hi sec through Stain/Querious and another direction through Deklein/venal, a third could be through Geminate and Etherium reach and a fourth around the Curse / Scalding Pass area.

Yes, Yes people will cry (alot) but trying to find areas to lessen existing alliance soveregnity.

So now you have a Donut in 4 pieces.
You move the pieces awaty from each other and - whats this ? - New systems / constallations/ regions are discovered.

These areas will fill in the gaps between the 4 pieces of donut - end result:

More Hisec and possibility of new trade hubs
More Low sec due to more 'Border' area.
Alot More nullsec which means, more space to conquer for alliances other than the main coalitions, much further ranges for jump drives (hehe) and more sense of adventure for all due to vastlt expanded universe.

Additionally to all this the universe may no longer be seen as 'finite'

What we now have is a 'cross' shaped highsec which means further expansion at the ends of 4 'arms' and the outer rim of null.

(existing jump gates would still exist but in the 3rd dimension over the arms of Low and Hi sec.)

Lets just stretch this a little further - these 'additional' regions could be vast (relative to CCP hardware) and 'could' hold an amount of untapped 'Static wormholes'.

Imagine if some access to these regions had backdoors through wormholes, however - a new game mechanic allowed large alliances (due to upkeep of said equipment) to Put wormhole into 'stasis' (think like POS equipment which makes WH static).

Of couse these can be attacked and destroyed by smaller forces and one the WH collapses - its gone.

Also High Sec alliances and corps could find a way here into some dark corner of the universe which they have to keep open and defend against aggressive/opposing forces.

To further the 'adventure' element - imagine if these areas cant even be seen on the map unless a corp (or alliance) installs a beacon for their members.
In other words it can only be found by neuts through scanning / wormhole roaming - or subterfuge :).

Worth buiding on I think.



Please bear in mind this is a theory of what could happen, please discuss - find faults and shave off rough edges.

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#2 - 2013-01-31 14:27:56 UTC
Last thing Eve map needs is bigger hisec. Also lol at calling wormholes "just fancy instances".

Eve needs more conflict drivers not just more place for same big old entities grow even bigger. Universe is big enough only some areas are just not worth to visit or conquer.

Invalid signature format

DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#3 - 2013-01-31 14:31:03 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
Can't really count wormholes for this as they are really just fancy instances.

...


Lets just stretch this a little further - these 'additional' regions could be vast (relative to CCP hardware) and 'could' hold an amount of untapped 'Static wormholes'.

Imagine if some access to these regions had backdoors through wormholes, however - a new game mechanic allowed large alliances (due to upkeep of said equipment) to Put wormhole into 'stasis' (think like POS equipment which makes WH static).

Of couse these can be attacked and destroyed by smaller forces and one the WH collapses - its gone.


*facepalm*

Because no one lives in w-space, amirite.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4 - 2013-01-31 14:38:27 UTC
EVE needs something worth dying for. All we have now are reasons to kill.
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-31 14:44:52 UTC
I still feel that any extra null space would just be consumed by the coalitions anyway.

I understand where your going and I like the principles, but I'm not sure it would pan out as hoped.
Lili Lu
#6 - 2013-01-31 17:15:18 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I still feel that any extra null space would just be consumed by the coalitions anyway.

I understand where your going and I like the principles, but I'm not sure it would pan out as hoped.

Agreed, but if it was more npc controlled nullsec then it might be worth it. As things are in nullsec so many systems are pretty much empty. ANd really all that sov is doing is controlling moons anyway. And until they fix the tech stupidity (and not with a prenerfed pita alchemy band aid) even that leaves much of nullsec sorta worthless.

There was talk at one point of giving poeple ninja bases to plop down in nullsec and not get instantly discovered and stomped by sov holders. Something like this is really what's needed. And some lateration to local in nullsec. Like an expensive upgrade to keep it operating the way it currently does. Then alliances might be forced to pick and chose only some of their systems to have instant intel in.
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
#7 - 2013-01-31 20:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Yim Sei
I guess Im just trying to solve what seem to me to be congestion issues.

The larger power blocks would need to exten alot further. The smaller corps / alliance get more sence of adventure and the vast expanse of the uncharted universe.

There would be more sub cap fleets due to logistics, less blobs.

Make the universe somewhere to explore again as a corp or small alliance. Extend the sense of adventure.

you could even use a cut down version of the SOV mechanics to create a new ship class - a mobile station for nomad corps.

The powerblocks are too big and suffocating to null - this I believe would revive null and coax some new players out there.

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.

zus
TxivYawg
#8 - 2013-01-31 23:09:36 UTC
my idea is this every solar system is linked with a gate so we can travel across the hugely an explored space in between,

what if it was a way to explore that an populated space with no sun or planets with no lows and regulations, but only the harsh realities of lawlessness where the harsh entities reside,
where you can find the ancient remnants of the past of civilizations long gone, but nevertheless the cause for their unexpected demise never cease to exist
a space rich of asteroid belts and minerals never before harvested but heavily watched by roaming fleets of extremely intelligent beings that will escalate any challenge and the longer you spent the more and the worse of theme brake there long hibernation to aide their assault with their capital ships ,
a vicious swarm that will go after you even when you warp to safety to kill you, and it will warp out to save itself if need be,
how we go there, From any solar system, we will need to build an new vessel an deep space expeditionary starship a ship capable of pinpointing a location in deep space around current solar system = new room creation,
the starship will be a civilian ship not a war ship will need to be capable to carry sufficient fully equipped ships Battleships and below sufficient for a small corporation .

the ships computer will retain the navigational location for moving people back and forth to join the game and you be able to do anything that you do in station in the starship you also will be able to open a cynosural field to get all the capital ships in for the fight .

this way we all can enjoy the game using all the toys the game offers with a challenging AI and Capital ship fights, for those that can't play continuously without interruptions and choose to enjoy playing against the AI with couple of friends
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2013-01-31 23:24:39 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
I guess Im just trying to solve what seem to me to be congestion issues.

Leave high-sec and avoid well traveled routes. You'll be lucky if you see more than 3 or 4 people in "backwater" low-sec systems or 1 or 2 people in most null-sec systems.

High-sec is congested. Not the rest of the game. And high-sec is only congested because most people don't like to risk their ships.

Yim Sei wrote:
The larger power blocks would need to exten alot further. The smaller corps / alliance get more sence of adventure and the vast expanse of the uncharted universe.

They already do. And any space they feel insecure about they put a "pet"/"rental" alliance there to act as a buffer/"meatshield."

Yim Sei wrote:
There would be more sub cap fleets due to logistics, less blobs.

Jump Fighters and Carriers can transverse farther in shorter amounts of time than any sub-capital can for only the price of refined ice.
Jump Bridge networks allow sub-capitals to jump from constellation to constellation in a matter of minutes.

Yim Sei wrote:
you could even use a cut down version of the SOV mechanics to create a new ship class - a mobile station for nomad corps.

It's in the works... but CCP doesn't want to create something that will obsolete/outclass current stationary structures used by corps and alliances.

Yim Sei wrote:
The powerblocks are too big and suffocating to null - this I believe would revive null and coax some new players out there.

Expanding the map is, at best, a temporary solution to more systemic issues. Eventually things will end up back where they are now.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2013-02-01 02:23:17 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:


What if all these issues are caused by the fact that space is now too small?



what were the issues again? and it sounds like we're just guessing that the cause of these issues is space...Ugh

wouldnt one of the most indicative symptoms of overpopulation be a lack of resources? and beyond that, competition for resources?

the only resources that i can think of that are lacking are research slots in NPC stations. but this is because of individuals who dnt want the hassle of planting a POS. Other than that, everything is in abundance.

there also dnt seem to be very many conflicts spawned by competition. mostly the inspiration for attacking others is simply itchy trigger fingers. Null sec is very quiet these days.

Quote:
Wheres the sense of adventure of roaming out into the wildernes??? gone - too many choke points.
Can't really count wormholes for this as they are really just fancy instances.


sure, for ppl who go just a couple WH deep from a hi-sec entrance and then come back. have u tried an actual nomadic lifestyle in WH space? because that would be the 'wilderness roaming' that is being referred to.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Sigras
Conglomo
#11 - 2013-02-01 08:53:47 UTC
Force projection in this game is easy, and there is little to no need for defense, or to even use the space that you have . . . Im not sure how to incentivize that, but as it stands right now, adding more space will just get it gobbled up by all the current power blocs immediately unless you add so much space that you eliminate scarcity which would destroy the game.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2013-02-01 10:36:43 UTC
Last expansion was pretty much the best expansion to come out in years.

It completely revolutionized low sec pvp. (And low sec really needed some love)


Also adding space is a really stupid idea... Have you tried roaming null sec or non FW low? Its a ******* graveyard.





Eve doesn't need more space, it needs more content to fill that space.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#13 - 2013-02-01 13:16:46 UTC
It really, really needs something worth dying over.

There are 2 issues here:

1. PvP vs PvE combat fits. Given the disparity between how these 2 elements of the game are played, you get the current 'hide and wait' or 'die helplessly' options. There is no real reason to cut profits with escorts and such, and escort duty is boring for the pilots doing it. At no point does it make any kind of sense for the bears to attempt to fight it out with the current mechanics and metaplay of EVE.

2. A reason to stay and fight. Even if the issues in combat styles were reconciled, there still would be no real reason to fight. Right now you have to force conflict on the unwilling. This is only fun for one side of the fight, and almost by definition bad game design. Many people like EVE for its similarity to a simulator, and just want to explore and stuff. Sadly, this part of the game shows promise but never really delivers. There is nothing in game worth dying to protect that is not attached to the Sov games out in null, and far beyond the grasp of individuals or small gangs.

EVE needs something worth showing up, fighting and dying for. For smaller scale combat, the vast bulk of risk lies with the victims of the non-consensual PvP mechanic. Expensive fancy ships with all the expensive trimmings because you go into PvE expecting to come out with your ship, against the PvP fit ship worth a fraction oof its Target and considered exploded when it undocked. Its no wonder the PvP guys think bears are risk adverse.... Except that many just don't like pvp, and have no reason to stay and put up with the harassment that non-consensual PvP represents.

Fix those 2 things, and you will have something to shoot at.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#14 - 2013-02-01 13:48:52 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Last thing Eve map needs is bigger hisec. Also lol at calling wormholes "just fancy instances".

Eve needs more conflict drivers not just more place for same big old entities grow even bigger. Universe is big enough only some areas are just not worth to visit or conquer.


These conflict drivers cannot just becompetitive farming instances like FW as we've all seen how that's turned out....
Lili Lu
#15 - 2013-02-01 15:45:14 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Last thing Eve map needs is bigger hisec. Also lol at calling wormholes "just fancy instances".

Eve needs more conflict drivers not just more place for same big old entities grow even bigger. Universe is big enough only some areas are just not worth to visit or conquer.


These conflict drivers cannot just becompetitive farming instances like FW as we've all seen how that's turned out....

Speaking as someone who is playing this game lately almost exclusively on my FW alt I have to say your characterization of FW and the plexes is simply wrong. Are there farmers that always run from a fight? Yes. Are they the rule? No.

It depends on what system and tz you go roaming in. Backwater systems that few live in will be filled with these. And CCP recently adjusted the pve difficulty of the plexes too far back toward easy in requiring one rat to be killed. For a while farming was dying out when they required ships to kill each and every spawn while incentivising defensive plexing with lp. Fine you might say as to no farming. However, it also was starting to lead to a very static warzone. Taking any system was going to be a very intensive and coordinated effort. This was not fun.

However, now, yes the old farming alts are back. They kill one rat, sit in plex, collect lp. Or run away with their warp stabs if any pvp ship comes at them. Solo plexing or dplexing this is to be expected to some extent. But again it all depends on the system and tz considerations. Backwaters are the realm of offensive farming (which needs to be dialed back toward more difficulty). But in or near systems where fw pvp-ers actually live there is plenty of fighting in the plexes. Plenty of really enjoyable small scale fighting tbh.

So while FW needs some more adjustments lest it become, it is not currently and universally, competitive farming instances.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-02-01 16:29:32 UTC
More space for players would only work if there was a feasible system so that the big guys couldn't just consume it.
For a snapshot, I'd say to introduce an independent and newly coined term of a "player-driven corp or alliance alliance" that can populate new star cluster pockets spread around 0.0 . Big coalitions cannot enter it and the functionality of these clusters are to harass the actual big factions somehow.

That is just for starters, so one can get past the aforementioned bottlenecks. And YES, there are bottlenecks, for those who can't seem to grasp that most new players or alliances can't even cross the boarder to low/0.0 to bring pvp becaused they're raped right at the door thanks to bubbled camps.
That's just one thing.

*


A REAL new expansion would only work if several old fundamental elements of the game were to change, if not drastically. Some points were pointed out, but there's a lot more to it. The big problem or question is "is such a literal expansion necessary just yet"?

For one, there would have to be some significant changes to hisec <-> lowsec <-> nullsec. Everybody knows that a lot of people feel comfy there. And of course, there has to be a safe haven here and there so that new players can learn the game and establish a foothold.

My dream would be that player alliances are the ones who can provide "sort of hisec" by their security alone - (I'm sure this has been suggested already here and there). So instead of having a hisec right in the middle, you'd imagine a galaxy that is actually through and through 0.0 and just a few safe clusters of NPC hisec systems, but the player alliances can for example establish a foothold and expand their reign so that they generate a virtual "hi/lowsec" around their spot.

New players would eventually "sign up there" and become part of that Alliance or whatsoever player driven faction. It would somewhere give you that "home town" feeling and you'd certainly be more willing to defend it. In other words, carebears could spawn or travel to the founded area, rat/mission and still have an NPC "Concord'ish" defense the better secstatus the ally can provide.

That would just be one vague way to produce the "realm pride" and "stay and fight" feeling for players. And by realm pride, I mean really being truthful to that spot you're at. EVE doesn't really have that. You may have your big monster coalition but somewhere, it is not the same like in other games, like DAOC or better yet, Planetside 2. You immediately stick with one of the three sides there and won't want to switch. Again, just a vague comment.

Whatever may be, I thought of being able to actually establish small states and empires, but this time not just "Oh, I'll just blue that one huge coalition".

And then there is the thing about a big "reset button" if one were to bring any sort of mindblowing expansions, because it would be so damn simple for the big coalitions to just reach out and consume the area as well - so there has to be something done about that too.

Regardless of what mega-expansion may be too, there has to be something done with Faster-Than-Light principles and massive zerging of capital ships.

However, such extreme idea of this "Outer Heaven" would cause a domino effect in various things, let alone the new questions. But that is just to be an example that one could "expand" without having to add new things, because I think we all can agree that other things REALLY need a fix first. And we (or better yet, CCP. We're just funding them :) ) are somewhere on the right track with Tiericide.


So just to reiterate in TL;IWIHPSIDR,
it is somewhere better to expand on whats there. Simple as it is, we are better off adjusting what we have -- but it has to be really BIG adjustments and not just painting over the rust (no minmatar pun intended).

It is also unfortunate that there are those who'll just deny anything and troll everything upside the head as they want to keep everything as dull as it currently is. Kind of like the USA now with the 2nd Amendment debate. Nonetheless, the game has to evolve somewhere or else there won't be people to shoot at in the future because they moved on to other awesome games.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-02-01 18:26:54 UTC
What we need is space where power projection of the alliances is limited.

ie, no cynos, no bridges, no POS jump arrays, no map and intel telling you when someone is in one of "your systems" - ie WH space, but with everything you find in null - ie tech moons, ice, and the ability to build stations - perhaps with static system connections - preferably by WHs so gate bubling and camping is harder.

ie, a wh always spawns from system A to system B, but its location in the system needs to be scanned down regularly, and only a certain amount of mass can pass through it, limiting the ability of blobs to move around (they can't be bridged or cyno'd).

Youd have sov mechanics, without the capital blob fests and nullbearing
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-02-02 04:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
The "No intel" is virtually impossible. CCP could of course make it difficult by removing channels alltogether, but this won't stop anybody from forming up Jabber/TeamSpeak/YouNameIt intel tools.
But I agree that the game would be far more interesting if things were drastically changed. Would also really introduce real "professionalism" rather than people just prancing around just because they overran others with FOTM stuff.

Would be great to see that systems actually require alliances/corps to build expensive stargates to link systems with one another. But that be a different idea for a different suggestion.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-02-03 00:28:30 UTC
By intel... I meant Local, that shows you exactly, 100% reliably, how many people are in your system and who they are... you know, that broken thing that has caused AFK cloaking in response, and thus generates endless whines about ideas to kill AFK cloaking by nullbears....


Basically I'm saying take WH space, add moon mining, ice, and sov, then make the WHs always connect the same systems....

Especially keep the part where you don't how up in local unless you send a message in local.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-02-03 01:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Majority of sov null should be turned into npc null, especially the farming hubs where you don't see hostiles for months on end, and the only threat is the lone afk cloaker that logs in and out in that system.

Black ops cyno range should be extended to the extreme with jam immunity, covering everywhere in null.
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