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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1421 - 2011-10-25 10:29:48 UTC
If you can unanchor them, you just need one and use it for multiple planets. A bit of a hassle, but doable for a small corp.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1422 - 2011-10-25 12:28:48 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
If you can unanchor them, you just need one and use it for multiple planets. A bit of a hassle, but doable for a small corp.


Hmm, this could work if implemented correctly. If kept fully destructible, being able to unanchor and move these to another planet would be interesting. Of course, there would still have to be a limit of one per planet, as alliance that want to keep them there permanently would have to defend them. This would still allow small corps to do PI in low-sec or 0.0, as well as WHs and not have them invest a large amount of ISK in something that they either can't defend or won't see returns on.

However, this does kind of make the idea of collecting taxes on PI void. Perhaps there should be some sort of cost to unanchor these as to make them stay in one spot for at least a day or two. I can see this forcing alot of people to either move into low-sec to defend their PI stuff or creating a new breed of PI ninja.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1423 - 2011-10-25 12:34:00 UTC
Just a thought on PI after the POCO hits the game. It may not be CCP's intention to create a completely viable and fully passive form of income, but this is what I see for PI in the coming months if these roll out. With the increased price of PI materials, you could make about the same amount on PI as you would mining in high-sec. Granted, it's not much when compared to the amount of ISK a casual miner makes in 0.0 space (around 300-400 mil ISK per week before alliance taxes), but it could very well be about 10-15 mil ISK per hour (the same amount that a hulk with T2 strip miners can make w/ orca support).

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1424 - 2011-10-25 13:14:33 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
D'Kelle wrote:
Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. don’t forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun.
Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I don’t want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain.

you can set tax rates to 0% if you own the customs office, so you don't need to pay anyone.

You missed the point most WH's are occupied by one maybe two friendly corps well, friendly towards each other at least so as there are few if any prospect of passing trade telated to PI in a EB who the heck do you tax? Point no revenue..
Further more anyone who is into PI. Would know that the transaction fees are not crippling. Even a newbee can make fairly good ISK at it.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1425 - 2011-10-25 13:25:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
D'Kelle wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
D'Kelle wrote:
Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. don’t forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun.
Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I don’t want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain.

you can set tax rates to 0% if you own the customs office, so you don't need to pay anyone.

You missed the point most WH's are occupied by one maybe two friendly corps well, friendly towards each other at least so as there are few if any prospect of passing trade telated to PI in a EB who the heck do you tax? Point no revenue..
Further more anyone who is into PI. Would know that the transaction fees are not crippling. Even a newbee can make fairly good ISK at it.


Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.

What a load of crap the current concept is... if they do go through with this I hope they consider seeding empire with tons of these things at cheap cost initially to replace the tens of thousands of customs offices they'll be needlessly destroying.

Better yet... leave customs offices in place until someone plants a POCO. If they unanchor the POCO, the customs office reopens. That gives real incentive to destroy POCOs around planets you favor that an unfriendly corp set up on while reducing the number of people taking one up the rear with the initial implementation of these things.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1426 - 2011-10-25 13:58:35 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.

What a load of crap the current concept is...

Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.
Gothiczwerg
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1427 - 2011-10-25 14:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gothiczwerg
I like the idea,cause you have more than one opportunity to make Posfuel from PI.I think the big problem at the beginning whould be getting a BPC at the market.The price would be going higher for Pi Productions ,thats for sure,but why make the most players the big mistake,and try to sell these goods (Posfuel)? "Collect" is the word,your Corp would be very thankful in the future =)

Back to topic:
If we cant get a BPC ,we would go back to Empire and build our Posfuel there.Why? Cause double taxes are better,as building POCOs,sure you dont get the amount of Fuel as in low sec or 0.0 but hey when you export 2000 mech parts what are you paying? 16K isk or let it be 20K ,now double the price,its cheaper than build the offices ,be feared to loose them ,or had a roaming gang in your system.
Everyone got a few Alts,let them stay in Empire,to Produce Posfuel,without any Offices.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1428 - 2011-10-25 14:25:35 UTC
Gothiczwerg wrote:
...I think the big problem at the beginning whould be getting a BPC at the market.....

There are hundreds of people doing FW and Incurions who are saving up their LP so they can get a piece of the action. You will get your BPC for less than 30M.
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1429 - 2011-10-25 14:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Meldan Anstian
El 1974 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.

What a load of crap the current concept is...

Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.



Your response totally ignores the problems that logistics to and from WH causes. It is not practical for someone not living in a WH to do PI in a wormhole.

Besides, having anyone not in the corp in the wormhole is never desirable.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1430 - 2011-10-25 15:01:56 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.

What a load of crap the current concept is...

Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.



In my wormhole? What the hell you babbling on about? Any industrialists from high sec trying to do PI in my hole will be taking the lonely pod express back to high sec. It's not like I'd get a cut of their goods anyhow, or even enough to matter.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Tux88
Tux factory
#1431 - 2011-10-25 16:01:17 UTC
The pi was the only reason to go in low sec... now with private custom i cant setup pi in low because other corporations will destroy the custom..... result : all little player will only play in high and when they will be bored they will stop to play, you're on the good way continue ...... :(
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1432 - 2011-10-25 16:06:16 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
El 1974 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.

What a load of crap the current concept is...

Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.



In my wormhole? What the hell you babbling on about? Any industrialists from high sec trying to do PI in my hole will be taking the lonely pod express back to high sec. It's not like I'd get a cut of their goods anyhow, or even enough to matter.


So you're chosing to shut off a potential revenue stream, with the trade-off being greater security from killing all intruders. Where's the problem?

Wormhole dwellers were (rightly) complaining when customs offices first magically appeared in these far-off systems, now they're complaining because the situation is being corrected and they have to spend around 100 mil per planet, when they live in a sea of isk. There's just no pleasing some people.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1433 - 2011-10-25 16:16:02 UTC
rootimus maximus wrote:

So you're chosing to shut off a potential revenue stream, with the trade-off being greater security from killing all intruders. Where's the problem?

Wormhole dwellers were (rightly) complaining when customs offices first magically appeared in these far-off systems, now they're complaining because the situation is being corrected and they have to spend around 100 mil per planet, when they live in a sea of isk. There's just no pleasing some people.


Shocked

No, seriously... Shocked

You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not. 16 to 24 hrs and the door closes. As such, anyone in the hole from empire is there to steal something, be it Sleeper sites or anoms, and dealt with accordingly.

So, I reiterate... Shocked

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1434 - 2011-10-25 16:32:38 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not.


I do it. Does that mean I've broken Eve?
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1435 - 2011-10-25 16:56:20 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not. 16 to 24 hrs and the door closes.

The guys in the WH can scan the exit and let you in. It's already happening. Some people find it worth the trouble.
Max Devious
X-M.MagnetS
#1436 - 2011-10-25 17:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Devious
El 1974 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.

What a load of crap the current concept is...

Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.



You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH.

For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation.

Max.
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1437 - 2011-10-25 17:12:56 UTC
Tux88 wrote:
The pi was the only reason to go in low sec... now with private custom i cant setup pi in low because other corporations will destroy the custom..... result : all little player will only play in high and when they will be bored they will stop to play, you're on the good way continue ...... :(


Given your ability to see the future with absolute certainty, would you be kind enough to Evemail me the winning numbers for the lottery, please?
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1438 - 2011-10-25 17:18:48 UTC
Max Devious wrote:
You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH.

For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation.

Max.


Diplomacy is in no way a violation of the EULA. If there are empire carebears willing to deal with the logistical headache of getting the stuff out, why not work with them? You could even get them to haul your fuel in, with you keeping the tax at a sensible rate in return.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1439 - 2011-10-25 17:33:23 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Max Devious wrote:
You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH.

For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation.

Max.


Diplomacy is in no way a violation of the EULA. If there are empire carebears willing to deal with the logistical headache of getting the stuff out, why not work with them? You could even get them to haul your fuel in, with you keeping the tax at a sensible rate in return.


Because, qutie simply enough, deliberately opening holes into empire is nothing more an open invitation to having your hole invaded. Granted, it's probably possible someone actually does that... we tend to consider them future targets however and not someone we'd consider smart enough to occupy wormholes for any significant period of time.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1440 - 2011-10-25 17:42:40 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Because, qutie simply enough, deliberately opening holes into empire is nothing more an open invitation to having your hole invaded. Granted, it's probably possible someone actually does that... we tend to consider them future targets however and not someone we'd consider smart enough to occupy wormholes for any significant period of time.


So you're making a smart choice (IMO) regarding peasants who dare to intrude in your system and as a consequence the new customs offices aren't giving you a benefit. Working as intended?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff