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Different idea to bring more conflict in wormholes
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Winthorp
#41 - 2013-01-30 06:36:20 UTC
As an AU player myself i never had too much issue finding people to shoot. I think you are just not scanning enough.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#42 - 2013-01-30 07:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Winthorp wrote:
As an AU player myself i never had too much issue finding people to shoot. I think you are just not scanning enough.


Your whole corp gets ~10 kills a day, and the overwhelming majority of them are not in WH space. I don't see what you're talking about.

-Liang

Ed: Don't get me wrong - when I lived in WH space the overwhelming majority of my kills were also not in WH space. That's the problem I'm pointing out - nobody is logged in.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-01-30 07:32:27 UTC
http://stats.whkills.info/

Somehow I don't think you're cut for the wormhole life Liang. Our whole corp is regularily amongst the top killers in wormhole space. That said, do you still plan on trolling this thread for long? Because your complaints about not enough Ozzies playing has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#44 - 2013-01-30 07:38:57 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
http://stats.whkills.info/

Somehow I don't think you're cut for the wormhole life Liang. Our whole corp is regularily amongst the top killers in wormhole space. That said, do you still plan on trolling this thread for long? Because your complaints about not enough Ozzies playing has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.


This man is correct.

No trolling please
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-01-30 08:08:07 UTC
Liang is clearly stuck in the wrong subforum... has the entrance closed behind you on your way in here?

SSC Brokering Service
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#46 - 2013-01-30 09:13:42 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Liang is clearly stuck in the wrong subforum... has the entrance closed behind you on your way in here?


Amusingly, I've been running a WH corp for 2.5 years. But hey, keep telling me that the only people allowed to poast in your glorious WH forum section is C5/C6 nublets that brag about an entire alliance getting < 500 kills/month.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#47 - 2013-01-30 09:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
http://stats.whkills.info/

Somehow I don't think you're cut for the wormhole life Liang. Our whole corp is regularily amongst the top killers in wormhole space. That said, do you still plan on trolling this thread for long? Because your complaints about not enough Ozzies playing has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.


You made a suggestion about getting more conflict in WH space. I made the observation that you can't have conflict when there aren't people to conflict with. Seems pretty ******* appropriate, TBQFH.

-Liang

Ed: I even disclaimed that it might very well be a timezone issue and put forward a suggestion that might address that. But because you seem to have a pretty giant stick up your arse about the copious amounts of PVP in WH space. Which totally explains why you made a thread asking for more PVP in WH space. Straight

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-01-30 09:27:49 UTC
No sticks up in anyone's arse here but yours it seems. You appear to be the one complaining the most about an area of the game you don't even live in anymore. Do us all a favor and just stop your trolling. The rest of us understand the realities of wormhole life and don't even bother with comments like your "noobs getting just 10 kills a day". It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. I'm betting that we get more quality PvP here than literally anyone in null or low sec. Even on the off chance that we don't (I admit it's possible), at least we don't have to deal with idiotic station games.

Your blog is aptly named, failing in so many ways...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#49 - 2013-01-30 09:58:05 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
No sticks up in anyone's arse here but yours it seems. You appear to be the one complaining the most about an area of the game you don't even live in anymore. Do us all a favor and just stop your trolling. The rest of us understand the realities of wormhole life and don't even bother with comments like your "noobs getting just 10 kills a day". It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. I'm betting that we get more quality PvP here than literally anyone in null or low sec. Even on the off chance that we don't (I admit it's possible), at least we don't have to deal with idiotic station games.

Your blog is aptly named, failing in so many ways...


No, I'm pretty sure I didn't start the massive **** talking here. That nonsense started around post #19, and devolved fairly quickly. If you want to back the **** off of it, I'm more than willing to - but the attitude that quantity of PVP doesn't matter isn't really going to help us see eye to eye much. The blatant ignorance of how PVP works in other areas of space isn't going to help either. If someone's going to start talking mad **** about PVP they should probably have the skills to back it up - just sayin. Moving on.

Look, I appreciate that you have a specific suggestion that you're trying to push. That's great - but I don't agree with it because it doesn't solve the biggest problem WH space has. THERE IS NOBODY LOGGED ON TO KILL. As I said, this could be due to the fact that I play in an off TZ or because I don't have the patience to scout a single kill for days or it could be because I prefer staying out of the blobbery of C5/C6 combat. The corp and gang size I prefer to run just isn't big enough to realistically compete at that scale.

But as to your specific suggestion, a few comments:
- You claimed it's not a new mechanic. It really is. It completely changes the way statics work.
- You cite that it'd allow you to run across groups that you normally don't - but this has never been a problem in C1/C2/C3 and even C4 while we dicked around in there. It seems to be more likely to run across the same groups the K space than through W space in the lower exits. This feels like a problem that's only a "problem" in higher level wormholes... and frankly, nobody else in WH space can really compete. So it probably exacerbates the "King Of WH Space" phenomenon. Eg, it's a bad thing.
- It nerfs the "safe farming" methods. That's fantastic, but I feel like there's other ways to do this.
- It doesn't address the real problems that I've personally observed in WH PVP.

But hey, please feel free to tell me again that my opinion doesn't matter because I'm a high sec miner. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-01-30 10:48:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Liang is clearly stuck in the wrong subforum... has the entrance closed behind you on your way in here?


Amusingly, I've been running a WH corp for 2.5 years. But hey, keep telling me that the only people allowed to poast in your glorious WH forum section is C5/C6 nublets that brag about an entire alliance getting < 500 kills/month.

-Liang


1) you are the one who started telling (wrong) people they dont have enough wh kills and other crap

2) lack of targets in AU TZ have nothing to do with "all the sites being run before dt". And it truly is quite amusing you haven't figured it out in your 2.5 years. There is simply lack of players in that TZ so you are less likely to run into them even when youre looking for them, simple as that. It has nothing to do with wspace mechanics.

Many players from good alliances in all over the wspace (not just c5/c6) already told you here you're full of crap. Acting like a butthurt child pretending to know everything isnt gonna change that. Noone here is interested in pointless drama and bragging about killboards.

>> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=249

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So'Cari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-01-30 10:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: So'Cari
TL;DR (1) Liang may have a point. It wasn't what I first thought, could have been phrased better and is actually interesting. (2) OP focuses on making W-Space unfriendly to farmers. Perhaps another option is making is more friendly to roaming. But how to do this without breaking W-Space?


(1) All the smack-talking aside I think Liang may have a point that the cumulative effect of site spawn/despawn mechanics (specifically that completed sites spawn instantaneously in another system) and strong EU and US presence in W-Space could be a disincentive for AUS players to move into W-Space.

Though I didn't see that's what you were saying until you wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
... it's quite simple. I'm aware of the way sites spawn and despawn, and that they immediately respawn (somewhere else) when completed. However, what actually happens is that holes that are lived in are frequently depleted quite early in the day and holes that nobody lives in (or has very quiet residents) become absolutely packed with sigs.

It's not that the 'clumping' of sites in unoccupied systems leaves you without sites to run. The claim is that this problem will be there for anyone from the AUS timezone. And whilst you don't need them to be plexing so you can gank them for your PvP, site running is the isk attraction for a lot of W-Space, so without it life is poorer for AUS players, making W-Space less attractive and leaving you - and everyone else - with no targets.

[No idea if that paraphrase helps. But it's a sensible point I'd not considered.]


(2) Going back to the OP. It sounded like your focus was mostly on making farming less safe by increasing the probability of a connection from an occupied hole.

I'd suggest that part of the 'problem' is that W-Space is intrinsically unfriendly to roaming gangs. Since your route must be scanned you can't move as quickly and freely as in low/null. Consequently those W-Space entities who do want to roam don't do it in W-Space. From what I know of VoC they get most of their fights staging out of their WHs into null.

On top of that the absence of local makes W-Space highly attractive to people who want to poke around doing cloaky ambush/gank stuff. It's a perfectly legitimate and skillful way to play the game, but you won't get as many fights, particularly of the 'gudfight' nature.

Ultimately I'm pretty sceptical that you could 'fix' these features of W-Space without ruining a great deal of what makes it different and exciting. (Why shouldn't there be a kind of space for the cloaky gankers?) So my only point is that I'm not convinced of the underlying assumption that a lack of 'conflict' comes from a low probability of encounters. Sorry I don't have something more constructive, but maybe someone else does.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-01-30 11:18:53 UTC
So'Cari wrote:
It's not that the 'clumping' of sites in unoccupied systems leaves you without sites to run. The claim is that this problem will be there for anyone from the AUS timezone. And whilst you don't need them to be plexing so you can gank them for your PvP, site running is the isk attraction for a lot of W-Space, so without it life is poorer for AUS players, making W-Space less attractive and leaving you - and everyone else - with no targets.
Noone is denying this "clumping" in uninhabited wormholes happens. But this makes no difference to any TZ, because they stay clumped before and after DT. DT doesnt automagically "declump" them by some form of even redistribution. All reasonably active corps have to look for sites in their static anyway, it doesnt matter whether you're AU, EU or US. And if anything, being forced to explore other WHs and run sites away from your POS should encourage pvp.

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Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-01-30 11:20:25 UTC
So'Cari wrote:
TL;DR (1) Liang may have a point. It wasn't what I first thought, could have been phrased better and is actually interesting. (2) OP focuses on making W-Space unfriendly to farmers. Perhaps another option is making is more friendly to roaming. But how to do this without breaking W-Space?


That's where you are wrong. I'm not focusing on making w-space unfriendly to farmers, simply wish to increase risk for everyone, regardless of what it is that you do. Like I stated in several examples, farmers would still able to use almost all of the same tools they have right now to make it safe to farm. Also, outside of some very few and selected groups of people, when people are farming they are rarely looking for good fights. All you get from those people is ganks. While ganks can be nice and all, I personally concentrate much more on increasing the chances of having those good fights.


Quote:
Ultimately I'm pretty sceptical that you could 'fix' these features of W-Space without ruining a great deal of what makes it different and exciting. (Why shouldn't there be a kind of space for the cloaky gankers?) So my only point is that I'm not convinced of the underlying assumption that a lack of 'conflict' comes from a low probability of encounters. Sorry I don't have something more constructive, but maybe someone else does.


The way I see it is that these changes would make it different and exciting. It would also help those people who run in more quiet time zones as like everyone has stated here, there aren't many people running in those hours. Increasing the odds of bumping into the ones, can not be anything but good.

As for Liang's comments... Wormholes collapsing and new ones spawning isn't a new mechanic, neither is dual statics nor the randomization of wormholes (see roaming holes as an example) Like I stated above, increasing the odds of running into the few groups that do play in those quiet hours actually helps accomplish what you're ranting about.
Winthorp
#54 - 2013-01-30 11:34:09 UTC
You can't expect to have the game change to grow one TZ over another its just absurd and i am embarrassed you are possibly from the same country as me.

You know perhaps you should understand that we come from a country of only 19M people so expecting a greater majority of them to play eve over other countries of hundreds of millions of people is even worse.

But of all the things i find wrong with your posting and butthurt the most annoying thing is that you qoute your own fake internet spaceship name at the end of your butthurt posts.

-Liang LolLolLolLol
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-01-30 11:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
So'Cari wrote:
TL;DR (1) Liang may have a point. It wasn't what I first thought, could have been phrased better and is actually interesting. (2) OP focuses on making W-Space unfriendly to farmers. Perhaps another option is making is more friendly to roaming. But how to do this without breaking W-Space?



If his point was that CCP should increase their marketing in Australia then yeah, he would of had a point but that wasn't what he was saying. Instead he made the moronic statement that "nobody in wormhole space logs on" What?

I think that if CCP released some new content to WH space then we would see the populating increase and that would be good for every pvp group out there. However, i think the subject of this thread was what CCP could do introduce more conflict drivers.

The big groups, in particular, need more reasons to fight each other and the only real way to do this is if some WH systems are way more valuable or strategically important than others. Whatever is done to achieve this could also filter down to lower class wormholes.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#56 - 2013-01-30 11:38:29 UTC
As stated before, I think if you made POS's less of a nightmare to live out of, you would have a great influx of people. As far as a conflict driver, you are never going to make people pvp if they don't want to. Sadly, there are a lot of people who will stay POS'd up if you want pvp. You come and try to invade them, and all their ships go boom in the shields.

Wait, fix that too. Lol

No trolling please
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-01-30 11:59:31 UTC
Liang, NO ONE comes to WH space to get massive amounts of kills daily, that's not what WHs are at all.
WH kills are often more about execution than quantity or even quality.
obviously this doesnt appeal to everyone, which is fine.
personally i have had covops kills that ive been happier with due to execution and consequences than any random kill in nullsec

There is no Bob.

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So'Cari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-01-30 12:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: So'Cari
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
The way I see it is that these changes would make it different and exciting. It would also help those people who run in more quiet time zones as like everyone has stated here, there aren't many people running in those hours. Increasing the odds of bumping into the ones, can not be anything but good.

OK, I understand the point you're making. I'm not suggesting that more connections wouldn't give some increase in risk or some increase in the probability of connecting to an inhabited wormhole. But I still think there's an aspect of the problem you're not appreciating. (No disrespect meant; just hear me out.)

Suppose that J101010 is inhabited by a 10-man corp The Bears. OK, you add some more connections (static, random, whatever) and now you find it easier to get into J101010. The fact that you can get there doesn't make those 10 guys (Dave, Jason, Bruce, whoever) change their minds overnight about the way they play EVE. Maybe you'll gank them a bit more often, but that's not what you're interested in.

I think what you actually want is to get a different 10-man corp - The Killerz say - to move into the presently unoccupied J989898. But The Killerz want to be able to roam and get a fight most nights within 30 minutes say. Without local for fast intel and a known route that they don't have to scan, it's more work for them to find a fight in W-Space than in Null or Low. Even though you make it more likely that you'll connect to J989898 your proposal does nothing to convince the PvP focused guys to move in. When you get there it will be empty. Meanwhile you've made life more tedious for The Bears (they've got to spend time putting holes crit) but haven't actually made the game better for yourself.

I know W-Space is supposed to be an anti-farmer, anti-blob, anti-null bropact of epic proportions but as much as it annoys me when people POS up and log off instead of fighting I do realise that I won't change their mind overnight and making the game more tedious for them doesn't help me get what I want.

Rek Seven wrote:

If his point was that CCP should increase their marketing in Australia then yeah, he would of had a point but that wasn't what he was saying. Instead he made the moronic statement that "nobody in wormhole space logs on" What?

Yeah, it wasn't stated clearly and then things got muddled with all the thorax-measuring and smack-talking. I mean, I don't think it was about marketing in Australia, just that for all the guys from AUS who already play, it may be that W-Space is less attractive for them than for an otherwise identical player from the EU or US. (If anyone doesn't see it just think about it some more. Not trying to be a ****.)

I'm not saying I agree and people like Winthorp are perfectly entitled to argue that CCP shouldn't change the game to benefit one TZ over another (fair point). I just wanted to highlight that, thought about in the right way, Liang did actually have a sensible point that was worth sensible consideration and, if your opinion differs, sensible disagreement.

Edit: I should say that my point about making W-Space attractive to Low/Null roamers are not actually something I'm personally advocating. Just that that's part of problem/solution that would be needed which I felt the OP and some subsequent posters had missed.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-01-30 12:15:07 UTC
I really don't see how it'd be that big of a change to the current methods used to make safe farming conditions:

- Crash your static
- Update every signature in system, do not warp to the newly discovered static
- Assign probe picket, drop alts to audio picket connections IF you left any open.
- Create bookmarks for every site you intend to run (not absolutely neccessary if you don't need good warpin points for capitals)
- Start farming

This would become:
- Crit your statics, anchor bubbles on top of them
- Update every signature in system
- Assign probe picket, drop alts to audio picket connections
- Create bookmarks...
- Start farming

Crashing part would increase the required effort perhaps by 2-3 minutes, a complete non-issue. Anchoring bubbles is 1-2 minutes more (you don't have to sit there idle when they are already anchoring).

If that ~5 minutes of extra work is more effort that they are willing to put into it, don't you think there is something else that is wrong in that scenario?
So'Cari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-01-30 12:54:15 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I really don't see how it'd be that big of a change to the current methods used to make safe farming conditions:

Crashing part would increase the required effort perhaps by 2-3 minutes, a complete non-issue. Anchoring bubbles is 1-2 minutes more (you don't have to sit there idle when they are already anchoring).

If they're 5 guys online in a C2 -> C4 with no Orca pilots then putting 2 holes crit with BS or smaller takes more than 3 minutes. How much extra work is really beside the point though. Any amount of additional work for anyone doing anything is stupid if it doesn't also have the effect of increasing the thing you want.

Seriously, I'm saying it as nicely as possible but in two replies you've completely ignored the main suggestion that the intrisic anti-roam properties of W-Space (definitely a feature not a bug) contribute much more to the absence of 'conflict' (of the kind you seem to be interested in) than the balance of PvE risk/reward (or whatever you're trying to effect by introducing more connections of whatever type).

I'm 100% open to being wrong about that. But if I am then I need a bit more help understanding why.

If you don't want to clog your thread with lengthy explanation (I've done enough of that #needstobeconcise) then drop me a mail if you can spare the time.