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Short-term goals and instant rewards: how to make 0.0 PVP complete and full of life

Author
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-12-29 10:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
Frequent player activities(and active players) is the lifeline of a MMO game.These days I noticed that too many people on the forum are very enthusiastic about improving(rebalancing or nerfing, whatever) the pve part of EVE, that's not bad. But you may like to realize that there is a fair portion of people that only engage in very little PVE features. PVE to them is similar to how mining to many PVEers: "knowing how to do, but never go for that".

On the recent FW changes and its result, I see CCP did a great job that successfully stimulated people's interest to seek fights/engage opposites.



There are these factors that contributes to the success of FW, I group them according to the duration of action and period of reward:

Small/Short term goal/reward is what can be achieved by one cycle of an activity .
Mid-term goal/reward will takes several ops and days to accomplish.
Long term goal/reward is a fairly big project in a field, such as pushing Amarr militia to T4(or Minmatar to T5) etc. Big smile

- Small/Short term goals: Increase/decrease the capture progress of a system; invade/expel opposites from a system.
Reward: instant FW site and killing rewards
- Mid-term goal: Capturing a system and have it upgraded, increase the global military point.
Reward: Right to dock; Station service discount
- Big/Long term goals: Get/retake more territories from opposite militia, get advantages or neutralize the disadvantages on militia level.
Reward: Better reward rate



Then let's see what's in null(sov):
- Sov fights: Taking/defending a system(Mid-term goal/reward),
Reward will be whatever in the system.

- Pos bashing: Taking/defending a moon, strategic position, CSAA etc (Mid-term goal)
Reward is the moon material, safer system, or the accomplishment of causing a great lose to opposite.

- Campaigns: Taking/defending a region(s), **** an enemy off (Long-term goal)
The long-term reward is generous you know.

These above looks good, but how about the others??
- Attacking customs office: Looks like a mid-term goal, that taking a customs office down.
Reward: Grief? Money lose to opposite? tbh it sounds stupid and people don't do it until they totally controlled the system, and then they have to. So this is an activity I will mark as "broken".

- Entrance gate camping: prevent some newbies/soloers from wandering into the territory, alert people about any roaming fleets (short term goal??!? but maybe we should not call something that can never be accomplished a 'goal' here, it is confusing)
Reward: happy corpmates(blues)? (lol) griefs? good fights(rare)? (it is actually not a 'reward' I'm talking about)
So this may be something actually broken as well.

- Normal roamings : Short-term goal: catching inexperienced player who's doing pve or traveling carelessly, hope the opposite to bring a fight-able fleet but often fail.
Short-term reward: I don't want to put something like "fun" here, because people can get fun by doing anything they like,but except it there is nothing left.

- AFK cloaking : Gay Term, gay reward. People love it, hate it, whatever, I have decided to leave it alone in this post.

Comparing with what happen in null, we can see there are a lot of mid/long term goals and rewards, but few(or just no) working short term goals/rewards. And this is what going to limit the frequency of pvp activities in null, and consequently cause people to afk, un-sub or at least feel "null is boring". Because the mid or long term activities can not happen very often, and people are from different time-zones.

In short, we need more reasonable short-term goals and rewards to keep null people alive.
I wish CCP can work out some funny ideas, and the community people can give some feasible suggestions rather than rework the whole gameBig smile
Edit: the rewards may not necessary be "NPC generated", but CCP may want to help entities to distribute the reward with efficiency.



Here is one solution comes from my unimaginative brainBig smile:
Encourage roaming by extortable customs office

Customs office, which is wired in sov null, I would like to make some use of it:
By taking down the office shield to x% level, 80% for example, the office will launch and eject Y% of PI product from all the launch pads on that planet (because people on that planet are being extorted). And so on for 65% HP, first reinforcement etc.
This will be the short-term reward. And the short-term goal will be decreasing the custom's HP and migrate into the mid-term goal, that eventually destroy the office.
Hauling the booties could be a problem but something worth to consider, or maybe the volume of PI stuff can be decreased a bit (or make a ship that can greatly compress stuff at a great refine loss).

As a balance to people doing PI, there could be a boost (the reduction of volume can be a great boost on both side) to PI), such as increasing the productivity in null and WH.

Will it boost the greater power?
It will boost the alliance/corporation with more active fleets and live numbers, while not causing too much lose to the side that being pillaged (comparing with an insta lose of a carrier or golemSmile)
The side being pillaged often will losing more "face" than actual properties, therefore they will have reason and power to fight back, and eventually bring more life and fights to the null.

tl;dr
Roaming should have a short-term goal and reasonable reward that important to keep people in null active and alive.
An idea could be making the customs office eject unlaunched PI product by every 15% HP drop.
This idea is not the motivation that I write this OP,
a short term goal with instant reward(other than "fun") for null pvp is.
Frying Doom
#2 - 2012-12-29 10:23:38 UTC
While I honestly disagree with most of what you have said

May I recomend you repost it here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183455&find=unread

And form it into the whole hi-sec/lo-sec/Null/Wh re balance debate as all points of view are welcome and its not even one of my threads :)

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-12-29 10:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
Frying Doom wrote:
While I honestly disagree with most of what you have said

May I recomend you repost it here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183455&find=unread

And form it into the whole hi-sec/lo-sec/Null/Wh re balance debate as all points of view are welcome and its not even one of my threads :)


I don't know how could you link my post to those pve argements like "too high the income in high-sec" etc. Maybe you have been argued with too many people that automatically migrate everything into "rebalance of high/low/null-sec". And for me, that post is just full of PVE/mining ***** that I don't want to talk about.

Double checked the tittle. Should be precise enoughBig smile

Frying Doom wrote:

You are talking about how to revitalize a part of Null sec, industry, PVE and PVP are all interconnected, as Nulls current state has shown well enough you cannot have one without the other.

But if you believe that a lot of people that are not already in Null, will come to Null for the sake of PvP and no real other reason, go nuts, have funSmile


I'm not going to issule multiple problems(or suspected problems) in one null-sec-pvp post, which could precisely work on it own.
Frying Doom
#4 - 2012-12-29 10:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Kogh Ayon wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
While I honestly disagree with most of what you have said

May I recomend you repost it here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183455&find=unread

And form it into the whole hi-sec/lo-sec/Null/Wh re balance debate as all points of view are welcome and its not even one of my threads :)


I don't know how could you link my post to those pve argements like "too high the income in high-sec" etc. Maybe you have been argued with too many people that automatically migrate everything into "rebalance of high/low/null-sec". And for me, that post is just full of PVE ***** that I don't want to talk about.


You are talking about how to revitalize a part of Null sec, industry, PVE and PVP are all interconnected, as Nulls current state has shown well enough you cannot have one without the other.

But if you believe that a lot of people that are not already in Null, will come to Null for the sake of PvP and no real other reason, go nuts, have funSmile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Othran
Route One
#5 - 2012-12-29 11:31:56 UTC
Your title is misleading.

What you are talkiing about is sov null.

There's plenty of life in npc null and pretty much everyone is there for PvP.

Sov null is dead because there is zero reason to go there unless you are in/a pet of/renting from (delete as applicable) a major alliance/corp.

You can't dock anywhere; your chances of finding a fight which isn't instantly hotdropped by dozens of bored sov null "pvprs" are exceptionally limited these days; most of the people in local won't be remotely interested in a fight (you know the ones I mean, they dock up and go silent on comms soon as a decent size fleet is reported). The list goes on and on.

If you actually like PvP then I don't understand what you're doing in a sov null alliance.

I'm serious because you won't find decent PvP there except in very unusual circumstances. What you will find (and this is true of every sov alliance I've been in) is a leadership who think the only PvP worth engaging in is sov warfare; a membership that are largely sheep waiting to be told what to do; and a very very small group of people who can act independently in PvP (ie they understand what is happening NOW).

I didn't find that fun, much as I didn't find sitting in massive fleets waiting for hours to bridge/jump into another massive fleet fun.

I think you're bored because sov null is intrinsically boring and it will remain so while it is effectively "off-limits" to small corps who don't want to be another alliance slave. You wouldn't need artificial nonsense to keep "people in null active and alive" if anyone could dock at sov null outposts/stations the way they can in npc null. Doesn't have to be all the outposts but some.

Anyway change the title as lots of us don't think all of null is sov space as you obviously do Blink
Newsflash
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-12-29 11:36:33 UTC
i can squeeze all this in few words. get a way to get rid of huge coalitions and eve pvp will get much better.
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-12-29 11:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
Othran wrote:
Your title is misleading.

What you are talkiing about is sov null.

There's plenty of life in npc null and pretty much everyone is there for PvP.

Sov null is dead because there is zero reason to go there unless you are in/a pet of/renting from (delete as applicable) a major alliance/corp.

You can't dock anywhere; your chances of finding a fight which isn't instantly hotdropped by dozens of bored sov null "pvprs" are exceptionally limited these days; most of the people in local won't be remotely interested in a fight (you know the ones I mean, they dock up and go silent on comms soon as a decent size fleet is reported). The list goes on and on.

If you actually like PvP then I don't understand what you're doing in a sov null alliance.

I'm serious because you won't find decent PvP there except in very unusual circumstances. What you will find (and this is true of every sov alliance I've been in) is a leadership who think the only PvP worth engaging in is sov warfare; a membership that are largely sheep waiting to be told what to do; and a very very small group of people who can act independently in PvP (ie they understand what is happening NOW).

I didn't find that fun, much as I didn't find sitting in massive fleets waiting for hours to bridge/jump into another massive fleet fun.

I think you're bored because sov null is intrinsically boring and it will remain so while it is effectively "off-limits" to small corps who don't want to be another alliance slave. You wouldn't need artificial nonsense to keep "people in null active and alive" if anyone could dock at sov null outposts/stations the way they can in npc null. Doesn't have to be all the outposts but some.

Anyway change the title as lots of us don't think all of null is sov space as you obviously do Blink


I have much more experience in NPC null than what in sov, so I can understand how the npc null is actually more boring than sov. If you honestly try to match the short/mid/long term goals to NPC null, you will see the goals there are void or hopeless to achieve, due to the nature of NPC spaces, and I suspect this is one reason that CCP changed something about docking in FW.

NPC null, actually needs more efforts to fix comparing with the sov, but due to its low population, I think CCP would pay more attention to the place with better "investment/reward" ratioBig smile
Othran
Route One
#8 - 2012-12-29 11:51:30 UTC
Newsflash wrote:
i can squeeze all this in few words. get a way to get rid of huge coalitions and eve pvp will get much better.


Its a nice summary but it won't happen.

I reckon the map could do with more mixed sov.

Fountain, Venal and Pure Blind have systems with npc sov and they are normally quite active - why not have npc sov systems/stations in every null region?

In every area of null where there is npc control then you have small (and some not so small) corps there to fight. That's why they are there - not to rat, mine or start an empire. They want a fight.

If you want to retain a big blue sea of sov null then fine, you have that now. Is it fun?
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-12-29 11:52:47 UTC
Having done Sov null, NPC null and FW extensively....the FW method is the best. By far. By lightyears.

Completely agree with the OP, null sec needs goals for small gangs and medium sized gangs. I remember CCPs response to this years ago was....destructible services with 20-50m hp.

In my opinion if CCP modified the current FW system and merged it with some updated streamlined POS mechanics then they'd have a winner that would lead to a massive surge in null sec population and subscriber count.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-12-29 13:38:35 UTC
Kogh Ayon wrote:

- Normal roamings : Short-term goal: catching inexperienced player who's doing pve or traveling carelessly, hope the opposite to bring a fight-able fleet but often fail.
Short-term reward: I don't want to put something like "fun" here, because people can get fun by doing everything they like,but except it there is nothing left.
...
a short term goal with instant reward(other than "fun") for null pvp.
...

add here faction/deadspace modules you get as loot from killed bear and you have good short-term rewards. A lot better than you usually can get everywhere else.

Quote:

...
Comparing with what happen in null, we can see there are a lot of mid/long term goals and rewards, but few(or just no) working short term goals/rewards. And this is what going to limit the frequency of pvp activities in null, and consequently cause people to afk, un-sub or at least feel "null is boring". Because the mid or long term activities can not happen very often, and people are from different time-zones.

Problem "null is boring" is bigger than you describe. "Absence" of short-term goals is only small part of it.

Big picture:
- too little people around - you usually have many of them in some trade centers. But when we speak about some god-forgotten 0.0 system you usually have there 2-3 real persons with alts. Next system can be empty completely. Feel forgotten? Yes, you are. Feel lonely? You have option: alliance/corp chat. The same faces (voices) every day.... Compare it to high-sec and you see the difference.
- NBSI - you can't trust to your blues. I don't speak about neutrals/reds. In high-sec i can fleet with some neutral to run missions together. Feel the difference.
- alliance politics "use local for intel only"/"troll in local like you are completely dumb"/etc.... You don't have people around, you either have "smart NPCs" or blocked 99% of 0.0 dwellers. Compare it to chat in Jita/Dodixie/etc.... Feel the difference.
- limits of movement. You are in box surrounded by enemies. Every step outside your home system is like "shot in russian roulette". In high-sec you can move everywhere you want (remember about standings and SS tho).

These are only few things which led me to empire after 0.0. Returned to high-sec i feel myself in live world filled by real people. In 0.0 i had never have this feeling.

Your proposed "short-term goals" will only help to some PVPers. They are like 10% of total 0.0 population i suppose. What about PVErs?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-12-29 18:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
March rabbit wrote:

Your proposed "short-term goals" will only help to some PVPers. They are like 10% of total 0.0 population i suppose. What about PVErs?


We may get another post to solve the pver's problem if there is, as the PVE features have no direct link to short term goal in pvp.

Also I'm not sure how did estimated the "10%", personally I will increase it to "30%" at least.

March rabbit wrote:

add here faction/deadspace modules you get as loot from killed bear and you have good short-term rewards. A lot better than you usually can get everywhere else.

How often do you get faction loots? and how much you get from that?
Also you can't separate reward from goal, and assign a reward that can be obtained from every other pvp activity to a single instance, saying "it's the reward of roaming"
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-12-29 18:36:13 UTC
So basically you want to do this.

dd if=/dev/factionwars of=/dev/sovnull

This will end badly.

Things are only impossible until they are not.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#13 - 2012-12-29 18:46:00 UTC
Othran wrote:
If you want to retain a big blue sea of sov null then fine, you have that now. Is it fun?

It is, thanks to the cries of people like... yes...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-12-29 19:57:14 UTC
Othran wrote:
Sov null is dead because there is zero reason to go there unless you are in/a pet of/renting from (delete as applicable) a major alliance/corp.

You can't dock anywhere; your chances of finding a fight which isn't instantly hotdropped by dozens of bored sov null "pvprs" are exceptionally limited these days; most of the people in local won't be remotely interested in a fight (you know the ones I mean, they dock up and go silent on comms soon as a decent size fleet is reported). The list goes on and on.


Just two quick points about your opinion:

ArrowFirst, SovNull has people that actually look for roaming pilots/gangs/fleets; what you may not realize is, most of us are lazy, have better things to do, or are playing something else as well- so excuse us for not chasing your Assault Frigate 20 jumps around our region visiting systems we (as the sov owners) have never stepped foot in.

ArrowSecondly, when you jump into home systems, staging systems or regional market hubs; understand, that 90-95% of the people docked up are either AFK, playing a different character, or completely uninterested in doing the above. Not everyone wants to be spoon-fed kills, but there's a limit to how far people will go to get a kill. Often times, you simply showing up in whatever you chose to fly in just isn't enticing enough to chase around for 20-30 minutes until you get tackled by the resulting agglomeration of pilots that left to find you.



The amount of suffering a small group of dedicated pilots, basing out of a nearby NPC Null Constellation can cause to sov holding entities is pretty extreme. They just need to be dedicated in bringing the pain, they will get fights, they will kill ratters, they will do obnoxious things on jump bridges. To get the attention of people in SovNull you first have to show yourself as a threat, not fly through their region on a random day, in a random month- and never go back again.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-12-29 20:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Profit sharing. Your comparison is FW versus soverign space? Why not the differences between sleeper sites and gate camps?

The "reward" system is different because of Sov space is accomplishing their goals with a different business "model" than FW does.

It's really hard to see how you compare something that takes an entire coalition to accompolish versus what a soloer can do because well, FW doesn't have player created rewards in place that sov null does (ship replacement, CTA's etc).

I'd think that people join larger coalitions/alliances because of the community of being in a like-minded organization that decides and presents interaction in the form of pvp to take over those systems for the good of everyone, not because people want to shoot a POS for hours.

FW is for instant gratification even though there are long term goals, those long terms are also supplemented by the short terms.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is if you want npc generated stuff, go do npc based activities.

After rereading the OP, I just realized something...

This is in no way a slight, but a lot of the things empire born pilots have is character creation. I don't mean sculpting your pilot, but actually testing and trying various different things with the entire game ahead of us.

I know with Goons especially, and this might be relevant because of the OP, but when you're bathed and baptized in blood of Sov warfare, you not only miss out on the baby steps of Eve and the fun of trying and finding all these new fascinated things, you also become de sensitized to it because let's face it, you will have a jaded approach to the normal "highsec carebear".

Because of that, your outlook and approach to different things have an entire different meaning. I know some pilots must have had created alts for this very same reason, but twinks/alts aren't the same as learning new things for the first time. You will still approach things with the same frame of mind you've been applying your pvp skills with regardless.

That in itself might be the problem.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-12-29 20:08:56 UTC
In short whenever anyone trys to create a reason to PvP null-sec'er complain they don't want to protect there own assets.

In other words they are no different then the people in high-sec.
They want to PvP when they want too, and not be forced into a fight.
And this all falls under the premise of they don't want to have to defend their own space.
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-12-29 20:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
Murk Paradox wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say here, is if you want npc generated stuff, go do npc based activities.


Counter-example:
FW sites: NPC generated LP, pvp based(mostly) avtivities.

And actually there is no way to assume that the "reward" should be "npc generated stuff", but even for player-driven rewards, there better to have assistance from CCP to reduce the workload to avoid the burnout of management people or fleet fc.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-12-29 21:11:14 UTC
Kogh Ayon wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say here, is if you want npc generated stuff, go do npc based activities.


Counter-example:
FW sites: NPC generated LP, pvp based(mostly) avtivities.

And actually there is no way to assume that the "reward" should be "npc generated stuff", but even for player-driven rewards, there better to have assistance from CCP to reduce the workload to avoid the burnout of management people or fleet fc.


If you engage in FW activities, and there is no opposition save for npcs... you get rewards right? You don't need a fc or any CCP interaction to accomplish this.

Or it's a matter of you insinuating that the only pvp to be had is from FW, I don't want to assume of course. =P

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-12-29 21:15:40 UTC
Another one of these threads? *sigh*
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-12-29 21:25:51 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Another one of these threads? *sigh*


No, no it isn't. Move along.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

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