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18 Days wait to do material research ?

Author
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#21 - 2012-12-20 13:30:56 UTC
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
Merouk Baas wrote:
From the beginning stations had a limited number of slots, and CCP doubled and doubled and doubled them, but like storage space it gets used up as soon as it's made available. Lab slots are scarce because you need Invention in order to create Tech 2 blueprint copies to make Tech 2 items, and people are using the labs for that, not just for materials research and copying.

As you can see, the cost of Tech 2 items is high, too, compared to Tech 1.

As far as POSes, a POS can only be deployed by a corporation, so if you want that and still want to do it solo, you'll have to make your own corporation. To place them in high-sec requires very high standings with the local Empire, but because there's a 7-day delay until standings are recalculated, some people offer deployment services.

Some corps also offer research slot rental. You join, do your research with no wait at their labs, and then leave, for a fee (probably expensive).


thanks for the information


Pity it's entirely incorrect.

Each slot type is distinct and discrete.

And if you look around, you'll find that there are invention slots all over the place.

Mostly because serious manufacturers do everything in a POS of their own. Copy slots are the ones that are rare. A single character can run through 10 copies an hour (ish)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-12-20 14:27:34 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
Merouk Baas wrote:
From the beginning stations had a limited number of slots, and CCP doubled and doubled and doubled them, but like storage space it gets used up as soon as it's made available. Lab slots are scarce because you need Invention in order to create Tech 2 blueprint copies to make Tech 2 items, and people are using the labs for that, not just for materials research and copying.

As you can see, the cost of Tech 2 items is high, too, compared to Tech 1.

As far as POSes, a POS can only be deployed by a corporation, so if you want that and still want to do it solo, you'll have to make your own corporation. To place them in high-sec requires very high standings with the local Empire, but because there's a 7-day delay until standings are recalculated, some people offer deployment services.

Some corps also offer research slot rental. You join, do your research with no wait at their labs, and then leave, for a fee (probably expensive).


thanks for the information


Pity it's entirely incorrect.

Each slot type is distinct and discrete.

And if you look around, you'll find that there are invention slots all over the place.

Mostly because serious manufacturers do everything in a POS of their own. Copy slots are the ones that are rare. A single character can run through 10 copies an hour (ish)



This.


A ME job won't make invention slots go into queue.
A PE job won't make ME slots go into queue.

Each single type of industry has it's own slots they use, some are more likely to be queued then others cause some are more profitable then others.


Most important thing to make a blueprint better (as in less expensive to build the item) is the ME waste. Lowering waste means less minerals are required, means less money needs to be invested in minerals.



Copies slots are likely taken too. This is cause if you place BPO into manufacture it's "gone" until the job finishes. Which means you can't research it at the same time or build another batch of the item. Making copies and then use them for production means your original is always available for research.

Another thing is that shipping a high-end into null-sec is risky. Why risk that it gets blown up while in transport or even be locked out if you get kicked out of the space without having the time to evac your stuff, you can just copy in high-sec. Leave the original there and take the copies you need into null. If those get destroyed/locked out, too bad, time to make new copies.

Last thing people use copies for is the T2 invention. It requires a T1 blueprint (either original or copy). But as the invention job destroys the T1 blueprints using originals is quite expensive over time.


Most invention jobs are done at a POS for 1 single reason. Invention is chance based and with a POS lab you get a higher base chance which means you are more likely to roll the dice to success and get a T2 BPC.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-12-20 15:09:31 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Last thing people use copies for is the T2 invention. It requires a T1 blueprint (either original or copy). But as the invention job destroys the T1 blueprints using originals is quite expensive over time.


Invention requires BPCs only, not originals. Try to invent of a BPO and you get an error message
Quote:
You cannot start an invention job with an original Blueprint. You must use a Blueprint Copy for this job.


Quote:
Most invention jobs are done at a POS for 1 single reason. Invention is chance based and with a POS lab you get a higher base chance which means you are more likely to roll the dice to success and get a T2 BPC.


POS labs give a time bonus, not a success bonus. The factors that affect invention success are the type of item (defines the base chance), the racial encryption skill level, the data core skill levels, whether or not a T1 item is used and decryptors (if any)

A Mobile or advanced mobile lab has a 0.5 time bonus over a public lab.
Scaramanga Erquilenne
#24 - 2012-12-20 16:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Scaramanga Erquilenne
Thanks for all the feedback


So other players are making money out of these long waiting times to research a blueprint ?

As i said at the start i just think 18 days to do some thing as simple as this is way to long .The cost of buying a researched blueprint are hiring a private pos production line would most likely take up any profits i could have made.Sure it will work fine for large runs but for the scale of production a new player can do i doubt its worth the cost.

The more i learn about industry and the markets the more i start to think its all stacked against new players.I am Not looking to pay my subs with isk made in game just wanted to explore it and invest the profits in ships etc .Just seems like every thing is overpriced and profit margins are tiny compared to the amount of time you have to invest.And the fact that so many blue prints are out of the reach of new players .


People say its a sandbox and a player driven economy but the control availability distribution of blueprints seems to be what its all about to me at the moment. Those who have and those who have not .Maybe in time my thoughts will change but thats were i am at the moment with eve )
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist 
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-12-20 16:14:17 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
Wait times depend on how busy the station is; all the lab/production slots are being used by other players.

Try to find another, less busy station; move away from the trading hub.

This is why people deploy their own research POS towers / stations. It's a lot of work to do so, and to maintain it, but there's no waiting once it's up and running.



Dont listen to him setting up and maintaining your own small pos is easy. Getting the standings to anchor it in a .5 or higher system is the b!tch. In the long run it will pay off as I am just now noticing.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom

RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-12-20 16:20:50 UTC
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback


So other players are making money out of these long waiting times to research a blueprint ?

As i said at the start i just think 18 days to do some thing as simple as this is way to long .The cost of buying a researched blueprint are hiring a private pos production line would most likely take up any profits i could have made.Sure it will work fine for large runs but for the scale of production a new player can do i doubt its worth the cost.

The more i learn about industry and the markets the more i start to think its all stacked against new players.I am Not looking to pay my subs with isk made in game just wanted to explore it and invest the profits in ships etc .Just seems like every thing is overpriced and profit margins are tiny compared to the amount of time you have to invest.And the fact that so many blue prints are out of the reach of new players .


People say its a sandbox and a player driven economy but the control availability distribution of blueprints seems to be what its all about to me at the moment. Those who have and those who have not .Maybe in time my thoughts will change but thats were i am at the moment with eve )



You have the wrong mindset to be an Indy. Mcdonalds didnt sell 1 million hamburgers its first day it opened did it.? No Indy takes time and with time comes profits. It takes a dedicated skill plan also inorder to maximize your production costs and refine rates. Unfortunately a Indy skill plan does not hlep in pvp or pve so that is why alot of players create alts for Indy or vice versa.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom

Scaramanga Erquilenne
#27 - 2012-12-20 16:31:25 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback


So other players are making money out of these long waiting times to research a blueprint ?

As i said at the start i just think 18 days to do some thing as simple as this is way to long .The cost of buying a researched blueprint are hiring a private pos production line would most likely take up any profits i could have made.Sure it will work fine for large runs but for the scale of production a new player can do i doubt its worth the cost.

The more i learn about industry and the markets the more i start to think its all stacked against new players.I am Not looking to pay my subs with isk made in game just wanted to explore it and invest the profits in ships etc .Just seems like every thing is overpriced and profit margins are tiny compared to the amount of time you have to invest.And the fact that so many blue prints are out of the reach of new players .


People say its a sandbox and a player driven economy but the control availability distribution of blueprints seems to be what its all about to me at the moment. Those who have and those who have not .Maybe in time my thoughts will change but thats were i am at the moment with eve )



You have the wrong mindset to be an Indy. Mcdonalds didnt sell 1 million hamburgers its first day it opened did it.? No Indy takes time and with time comes profits. It takes a dedicated skill plan also inorder to maximize your production costs and refine rates. Unfortunately a Indy skill plan does not hlep in pvp or pve so that is why alot of players create alts for Indy or vice versa.



iI agree maybe i dont have the right mind set for it .But 3 weeks to do some thing as simple as this in game while other make profit from people being forced to wait 3 weeks is a rip off and just poor game design .I pay my subs and i cant use the tools for 3 weeks is a joke ))
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist 
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-12-20 16:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
RomeStar wrote:
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback


So other players are making money out of these long waiting times to research a blueprint ?

As i said at the start i just think 18 days to do some thing as simple as this is way to long .The cost of buying a researched blueprint are hiring a private pos production line would most likely take up any profits i could have made.Sure it will work fine for large runs but for the scale of production a new player can do i doubt its worth the cost.

The more i learn about industry and the markets the more i start to think its all stacked against new players.I am Not looking to pay my subs with isk made in game just wanted to explore it and invest the profits in ships etc .Just seems like every thing is overpriced and profit margins are tiny compared to the amount of time you have to invest.And the fact that so many blue prints are out of the reach of new players .


People say its a sandbox and a player driven economy but the control availability distribution of blueprints seems to be what its all about to me at the moment. Those who have and those who have not .Maybe in time my thoughts will change but thats were i am at the moment with eve )



You have the wrong mindset to be an Indy. Mcdonalds didnt sell 1 million hamburgers its first day it opened did it.? No Indy takes time and with time comes profits. It takes a dedicated skill plan also inorder to maximize your production costs and refine rates. Unfortunately a Indy skill plan does not hlep in pvp or pve so that is why alot of players create alts for Indy or vice versa.



iI agree maybe i dont have the right mind set for it .But 3 weeks to do some thing as simple as this in game while other make profit from people being forced to wait 3 weeks is a rip off and just poor game design .I pay my subs and i cant use the tools for 3 weeks is a joke ))


1.) Then don't put the job in the queue. EVE is what YOU make of it and reacts to YOUR decisions.

2.) Nobody is making profit of those queues. It's just that other people are currently researching using that production line (and others are already waiting in that queue).

3.) As mentioned, the way to get rid of those queues is to get access to a research POS (either make your own corp and deploy one once you have the standings in high-sec, get into a corp that already has their research POS up and running or look for services that grant you access - usually at a cost).

4.) Industry is a long term planning thing. Even those big industry guys did start with crappy blueprints and small stuff and expanded from there. As mentioned, those big real life companies started small too. Microsoft didn't become a huge company the second they started the company, it takes time, effort, dedication and lots of research and planning. The same counts for EVE, do your research, take small steps and advance / expand.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-12-20 17:53:09 UTC
I started out in manufacturing by buying cheap BPCs on contract (after doing enough research to ensure they were cheap and were profitable) and manufacturing from those. If I was happy with the profit and movement of the item, I bought a BPO, tossed it into a public slot to research and then carried on manufacturing from the BPCs while it researched.

If I may ask, what items were you looking to make?
Davith en Divalone
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-12-20 17:54:45 UTC
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:

iI agree maybe i dont have the right mind set for it .But 3 weeks to do some thing as simple as this in game while other make profit from people being forced to wait 3 weeks is a rip off and just poor game design .I pay my subs and i cant use the tools for 3 weeks is a joke ))


Eve isn't an instant gratification game, it even says so in the intro video, "If you are patient, you can amass the wealth of nations."

But it's usually the case that what you can do three weeks from now is what you can do now, albeit with less skill and profit. There's plenty of items in the world you can build and profit from without doing material research. There's even helpful web-based tools that will estimate material cost, grab the market price from eve-central, and tell you how much profit you stand to make on an item.
Herbinator d'Arcadie
Arkadian Knight
#31 - 2012-12-20 18:10:53 UTC
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
... Will join a corp in time once i have gone as far as i can on my own , its the learning and finding out things for my self part that i enjoy at the moment , ...

Good on ya, mate.
I have an objective of building a specific T2 ship. It requires plenty of planning and foresight but, as you said, it is a super learning experience. The ship may end up costing 3 or 4 times its market value but that is almost irrelevant to me. The fun is in the doing: mining rare ores, planning PI, discovering where materials come from, POS planning, training the skills, fuel ... makes EVE a fascinating, broad experience as opposed to ... not.
As for the EVE construct ... it's all part of the challenge. There is plenty to do while you wait for one thing or another.

"Block" pigs. Refuse to fly with them.

Merouk Baas
#32 - 2012-12-20 18:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Merouk Baas
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Pity it's entirely incorrect.


Entirely incorrect? I'm sorry but at the very least the word "CCP" is correct, as are the paragraphs about POSes, so kitten you and your hyperbole.
Besina Echerie
Vermona Collective
#33 - 2012-12-20 19:15:51 UTC
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
[iI agree maybe i dont have the right mind set for it .But 3 weeks to do some thing as simple as this in game while other make profit from people being forced to wait 3 weeks is a rip off and just poor game design .I pay my subs and i cant use the tools for 3 weeks is a joke ))

You aren't forced to research plans in a highsec station; you aren't required to fuss with this stuff at all. You want to do something important for producing expensive stuff, and a big reason they are expensive is because there is only so fast anyone can push blueprint stuff through without controlling a station of their own, and even then there's a capacity limit. If they were to open the queues up more, they would have to throttle it back some other, equally annoying way.
It's bad design to let everyone create all the stuff they want for things that are supposed to have real value on a moments notice so they can flood the market and break the economy. YOU chose to go into that specific arm of industrial stuff where this is an issue and YOU chose to do it in empire space where there are long lines.
And now, YOU have three weeks to do other fun stuff in while you wait for your job to finish, because unlike real life, you don't have to do the actual work yourself.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#34 - 2012-12-20 19:21:18 UTC
Scaramanga Erquilenne wrote:
i serched the whole region ,search was a 12 jump radius .Most of my trade skills are level 3 at the moment
I just want to be clear is this the average wait for material research jobs ? unless you have your own pos


Clarification, you have _four_ options here:

1: Deal with it and wait a month. Your job is going to take a long time to finish too, so you'll be annoying the other high-sec and low-sec dudes trying to use the public facilities.

2: Build a POS, as others have mentioned. Generally speaking most people won't bother them in high-sec, and they're fairly easy to fuel with Planetary Interaction, so you should be able to find some people willing to halp you support one in exchange for some of the slots. Or you can make you own corp and do it completely solo.

3: Move to Sov 0.0, have a corp/alliance that has stations built with facilities you're allowed to use.

4: Move to NPC-owned 0.0, do your research there for a few months, then fly your crap back for manufacturing using a stealth bomber. Or just stay there, it's pretty fun.


Basically, think of manufacturing/research as using the WC: manufacturing is the urinals, the public ones are limited but the line moves fast enough that you can get there with a bit of waiting. Research is the commode, if you want to use a public one you'll have to do it in the skeevy part of town where no one else wants to go because of the likelihood of getting a knife to the kidneys. Or you can just have one in your house or apartment complex and not bother with public facilities at all.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-12-20 19:43:20 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
1: Deal with it and wait a month. Your job is going to take a long time to finish too, so you'll be annoying the other high-sec and low-sec dudes trying to use the public facilities.

2: Build a POS, as others have mentioned. Generally speaking most people won't bother them in high-sec, and they're fairly easy to fuel with Planetary Interaction, so you should be able to find some people willing to halp you support one in exchange for some of the slots. Or you can make you own corp and do it completely solo.

3: Move to Sov 0.0, have a corp/alliance that has stations built with facilities you're allowed to use.

4: Move to NPC-owned 0.0, do your research there for a few months, then fly your crap back for manufacturing using a stealth bomber. Or just stay there, it's pretty fun.


5: Join a highsec (or lowsec) corp that has a research POS and will allow you to use it.

6: Make use of the blueprint research services that exist.

7: Buy a pre-researched blueprint off contract
Scaramanga Erquilenne
#36 - 2012-12-20 20:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Scaramanga Erquilenne
Think i now know what all my options are now.I just have to get used to the time frames in eve and alter my expectations.Suppose Rome was not built in a day Big smile

It can be very frustrating when you get a idea in your head that you think its good.Do your maths and some research and then you hit a brick wall .But at the same time that what i like about EVE its a challenge .Spat my dummy out three times in three months but still coming back for more Smile

Again thanks for the help and advice think i can move on from this now)))
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist 
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#37 - 2012-12-20 21:00:27 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Pity it's entirely incorrect.


Entirely incorrect? I'm sorry but at the very least the word "CCP" is correct, as are the paragraphs about POSes, so kitten you and your hyperbole.



Remind me to shoot you in the face some time. Meet you planetside. Blink

So I indulged in a little hyperbole. (which is a nice word that I don't get to use often enough). Shoot me. Perhaps with a Kittenault Rifle.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#38 - 2012-12-20 21:22:38 UTC
If you're new, get out of the main empire trade hubs ASAP. You can't complete with the vets who operate out of there. There are plenty of viable markets out in the fringes, including high sec areas that are isolated by lo-sec. Many of these areas also see a lot of PvP and the pilots there have a dear need for ships and modules, even tech 1 ones.

NPC lab slots are on much shorter queues and even without that you can make money off of ME 0 BPOs as many times no one is even making a specific module locally.

It requires a lot of exploration and out of game logistics planning. But there are also a lot of corps that market and specialize in helping with that.
Rams Trough'put
White Knight's Production inc.
#39 - 2012-12-20 21:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rams Trough'put
Xercodo wrote:
It wasn't 30 days? You lucky...
Tell me about it... I'm trouble finding one under 45 days in high sec, did a little scouting and found a 15 day que in a reasonably quiet and close low station. With proper precaution and lil luck, I should be fine.

I been scanning down POSs and dropping eve mails trying to catch someone....too bad I can't see any other names than the CEO.
Rams Trough'put
White Knight's Production inc.
#40 - 2012-12-20 21:58:25 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Basically, think of manufacturing/research as using the WC: manufacturing is the urinals, the public ones are limited but the line moves fast enough that you can get there with a bit of waiting. Research is the commode, if you want to use a public one you'll have to do it in the skeevy part of town where no one else wants to go because of the likelihood of getting a knife to the kidneys. Or you can just have one in your house or apartment complex and not bother with public facilities at all.
CUTE description >>> But 100% correct lol
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