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Petition on upgrade NullSec stations to compete HighSec stations
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Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#1 - 2012-12-18 13:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Abu Tarynnia
HI,

since I am currently offline (work) I would like to make a petition as mentioned in this post:

URL deleted since I cannot post anything from this forum .. which is rather stupid ...
GD: Nullsec is a ghetto .. page 7

I, and not me alone, would like to see that CCP gives players in NullSec the possibility to upgrade their stations up to a level that matches those of HighSec in regards of productivity and refining grade etc.
This is meant to upgrade NullSec to a level where those alliances / Corps are strong enough to maintain those stations and defend them against those who wish them ill. For the petitioner is clear that this might have a major impact on the game but on the other hand NullSec, at least in my experience and some others I read on these boards, is basically dead. 71% of player populations stays in HighSec since this is a much safer place offering much more possibilities.
If a alliance proves strong enough to maintain the station it should be rewarded in a way you would normaly only reach in HighSec but with the risk to loose it all.

So stations should:
- be upgradable up to the level of HighSec-stations
- be maintained as stations / POS are right now .. so a constant stream of ice etc has to be provided
- be attackable since this is what it is all about.

May the wars begin

Abu Tarynnia

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-12-18 13:14:35 UTC
Good thread, A++
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-12-18 13:14:53 UTC
Also you should sign your posts with your full character name or else the effect is ruined.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#4 - 2012-12-18 13:16:55 UTC
Agreed

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#5 - 2012-12-18 13:19:32 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Also you should sign your posts with your full character name or else the effect is ruined.


Done ;) and thanks ;)

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#6 - 2012-12-18 13:27:03 UTC
Abu Tarynnia wrote:
HI,

since I am currently offline (work) I would like to make a petition as mentioned in this post:

URL deleted since I cannot post anything from this forum .. which is rather stupid ...
GD: Nullsec is a ghetto .. page 7

I, and not me alone, would like to see that CCP gives players in NullSec the possibility to upgrade their stations up to a level that matches those of HighSec in regards of productivity and refining grade etc.
This is meant to upgrade NullSec to a level where those alliances / Corps are strong enough to maintain those stations and defend them against those who wish them ill. For the petitioner is clear that this might have a major impact on the game but on the other hand NullSec, at least in my experience and some others I read on these boards, is basically dead. 71% of player populations stays in HighSec since this is a much safer place offering much more possibilities.
If a alliance proves strong enough to maintain the station it should be rewarded in a way you would normaly only reach in HighSec but with the risk to loose it all.

So stations should:
- be upgradable up to the level of HighSec-stations
- be maintained as stations / POS are right now .. so a constant stream of ice etc has to be provided
- be attackable since this is what it is all about.

May the wars begin

Abu Tarynnia


I agree in principle of course, but CCP has real things to be concerned about. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but the consequence of providing more tools for "independence of null sec from the shackles and tyranny of high sec" (Space-copyright Jenn aSide 2012) is that ALL the high sec people feeding at the null sec trough get screwed.

Of course my stance is screw them, they didn't know what side their bread was buttered on with all their calls to "just buff null sec and leave my high sec alone", but I'm not CCP. As I said in another thread, it seems that CCP has painted itself into a corner with how they've handled things, now there may be no non-painful options to set things straight.
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#7 - 2012-12-18 13:59:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

I agree in principle of course, but CCP has real things to be concerned about. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but the consequence of providing more tools for "independence of null sec from the shackles and tyranny of high sec" (Space-copyright Jenn aSide 2012) is that ALL the high sec people feeding at the null sec trough get screwed.

Of course my stance is screw them, they didn't know what side their bread was buttered on with all their calls to "just buff null sec and leave my high sec alone", but I'm not CCP. As I said in another thread, it seems that CCP has painted itself into a corner with how they've handled things, now there may be no non-painful options to set things straight.


Hm .. but where is HighSec involved in this scenario ? You would gain an NullSec independent from HighSec, since all you would need there might be produced in NullSec at (basically) same conditions as in HighSec. Those big / high-end-game stations would be scare (in my imagination), since they would be rather expensive.
The only thing that would happen is that NullSec minerals would become more expensive, since they would normaly not be exported to HighSec anymore. The Alliances would hire miners in order to mine ice for the stations and minerals for all other things .. so basically you can build your own version of highsec only without CONCORD.
People from highSec would still be able to mine, missioning etc in HighSec als long as they either use T1 material or pay the price for NullSec minerals ... so the trade would win at this point. The rather static situation we have right now would break up WITHOUT breaking apart.
On the other hand those station COULD be destroyed since in NullSec there should be NO SEC so everything should be attackable ... though at a price .. read the stations should be well able to defend them selfs except for mayor fleets.
THIS would be player generated content.

just my 2 cents

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#8 - 2012-12-18 14:02:29 UTC
Null has too long been stepped upon by CCP and their merry band of highsec'ers.
Kehro Urgus
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#9 - 2012-12-18 14:36:04 UTC
Null sec should be more like hi sec.What?

Yeeee! 
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-18 14:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
And then they need to nerf high sec NPC stations so that people have a real reason to play in a player run corp that uses player run stations.

It shouldn't matter "where" you are.

High sec guys should also benefit from assuming risk and effort when they form a corp and run a station.

Something like,
Max refine for a guy that's in an NPC corp, and refingin in an NPC station of 80%

Max refine in NPC stations where a corp has an office 90%

Low sec NPC stations 90%

High sec PoS, low sec PoS, null sec PoS, Low sec NPC station with a corporate office, and null sec stations 100%

Max refine being what you get after skill training.

Just buffing up null stations doesn't fix the root of the problem, and that is people who play in the NPC corps and work out of NPC stations are the most efficient industrialists in the game. Industrialists aren't rewarded for joing a corp and working out of player owned structures; we're penalized. Even if you buff to "high sec levels", we would still be penalized because we gain nothing but more risk and effort over someone who never leaves the NPC corps.
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#11 - 2012-12-18 14:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Abu Tarynnia
Kehro Urgus wrote:
Null sec should be more like hi sec.What?


Only if you can make it like .. and then it would be YOUR version of HighSec.
I think it would just add trade hub into null .. and maybe Null in range of those stations might become more attractiv for those players currently sitting in high sec.

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Just buffing up null stations doesn't fix the root of the problem, and that is people who play in the NPC corps and work out of NPC stations are the most efficient industrialists in the game. Industrialists aren't rewarded for joing a corp and working out of player owned structures; we're penalized. Even if you buff to "high sec levels", we would still be penalized because we gain nothing but more risk and effort over someone who never leaves the NPC corps.


just one step after the other ;)
If this petition works out then I would wonder how long CCP would keep their feet still before following your advice. And yes .. you are right. But one step ....

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-18 14:56:26 UTC
I have to admit I always wondered why Null Stations where never given the same number of slots as high-sec stations ?
It was a very long time ago when you could put station in Null and perhaps there was a reason back then but the question is it still valid now.

It would be interesting to see what CCP thinks about it.

The only possibility I could think of is that at one time All production was done in a POS and the stations where just supposed to supplement production rather then create a risk free production environment. (I know I am using risk free rather loosely here)

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-12-18 15:10:27 UTC
Abu Tarynnia wrote:

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Just buffing up null stations doesn't fix the root of the problem, and that is people who play in the NPC corps and work out of NPC stations are the most efficient industrialists in the game. Industrialists aren't rewarded for joing a corp and working out of player owned structures; we're penalized. Even if you buff to "high sec levels", we would still be penalized because we gain nothing but more risk and effort over someone who never leaves the NPC corps.


just one step after the other ;)
If this petition works out then I would wonder how long CCP would keep their feet still before following your advice. And yes .. you are right. But one step ....

I disagree,

It needs to all happen at the same time.

A PoS revamp and S&I UI overahaul.

The PoS revamp will change everything about the way we work in EVE, and give every corporationt he ability to actually run their own PoS without needing a free moon. The moment they do that, to be very frank, NPC stations need to be nerfed into the ground.

With the PoS revamp the NPC stations would only be needed for peopel to buy and sell goods, access mission agents, and insurance. Outside buying and selling, most station services would be possible to drop into the PoS's. Basically the NPC stations would primarilly be there for those people who don't leave the NPC corps, and those services should be the worste in the game.

This very well could be a theme for an entire year, my personal hope is 2013. Two expansions both focussing ont he industrial side of EVE, with one putting emphasis on the PoS revamp, and the other ring mining. I have a feeling this more likely to happen in 2014 or 15, but one can hope.


I don't thinkt the the people who say "Make null sec more like high" are on to something; even though they're being sarcastic.

I really do believe that CCP is working towards making high more like null, but without the FFA pvp. I expect that the PoS revamp will allow high sec corps to run station like structures that null corps currently run.
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#14 - 2012-12-18 15:26:24 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Abu Tarynnia wrote:

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Just buffing up null stations doesn't fix the root of the problem, and that is people who play in the NPC corps and work out of NPC stations are the most efficient industrialists in the game. Industrialists aren't rewarded for joing a corp and working out of player owned structures; we're penalized. Even if you buff to "high sec levels", we would still be penalized because we gain nothing but more risk and effort over someone who never leaves the NPC corps.


just one step after the other ;)
If this petition works out then I would wonder how long CCP would keep their feet still before following your advice. And yes .. you are right. But one step ....

I disagree,

It needs to all happen at the same time.

A PoS revamp and S&I UI overahaul.

The PoS revamp will change everything about the way we work in EVE, and give every corporationt he ability to actually run their own PoS without needing a free moon. The moment they do that, to be very frank, NPC stations need to be nerfed into the ground.

With the PoS revamp the NPC stations would only be needed for peopel to buy and sell goods, access mission agents, and insurance. Outside buying and selling, most station services would be possible to drop into the PoS's. Basically the NPC stations would primarilly be there for those people who don't leave the NPC corps, and those services should be the worste in the game.

This very well could be a theme for an entire year, my personal hope is 2013. Two expansions both focussing ont he industrial side of EVE, with one putting emphasis on the PoS revamp, and the other ring mining. I have a feeling this more likely to happen in 2014 or 15, but one can hope.


I don't thinkt the the people who say "Make null sec more like high" are on to something; even though they're being sarcastic.

I really do believe that CCP is working towards making high more like null, but without the FFA pvp. I expect that the PoS revamp will allow high sec corps to run station like structures that null corps currently run.


Well if I were CCP, and I am working in Software Bis, then I would NullSec as a training field to test wether my idea works as intended or not. HighSec has to stay in a way as it is because new players start here and should have the room AND freedom to try and gamble EVE without being f&%§ up just the moment they undock. This is something you just have to keep in mind in order to keep EVE running ... EVE needs new players!

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-12-18 15:32:05 UTC
Abu Tarynnia wrote:
HighSec has to stay in a way as it is because new players start here and should have the room AND freedom to try and gamble EVE without being f&%§ up just the moment they undock. This is something you just have to keep in mind in order to keep EVE running ... EVE needs new players!


It would easy to implement a, say, 2 month account limit after which you would be forced to move on from your mothers basement and onto low and null. This would make the game a lot better for the true newbies as they would no longer be forced to compete against t2 afk mining mackinaws and perfectly skilled industrialists.
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#16 - 2012-12-18 15:34:16 UTC
SaKoil wrote:
Abu Tarynnia wrote:
HighSec has to stay in a way as it is because new players start here and should have the room AND freedom to try and gamble EVE without being f&%§ up just the moment they undock. This is something you just have to keep in mind in order to keep EVE running ... EVE needs new players!


It would easy to implement a, say, 2 month account limit after which you would be forced to move on from your mothers basement and onto low and null. This would make the game a lot better for the true newbies as they would no longer be forced to compete against t2 afk mining mackinaws and perfectly skilled industrialists.


Just make it a 2 or 3 months discount on taxes and raise those after given time to 15% without possibility to lower via standing .. or just by standing% :) ... damn and I say that while being highseccer myself ;)

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-12-18 15:40:10 UTC
Abu Tarynnia wrote:


Well if I were CCP, and I am working in Software Bis, then I would NullSec as a training field to test wether my idea works as intended or not. HighSec has to stay in a way as it is because new players start here and should have the room AND freedom to try and gamble EVE without being f&%§ up just the moment they undock. This is something you just have to keep in mind in order to keep EVE running ... EVE needs new players!

CCP has never done this.

What they appear to be doing however, is designing both expansions in a year around an overall theme. 2012 was War and crime & punishment.

With the various things they've discussed and hinted at "possible doing eventually", it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that at some point we'll see a year themed as Industry.


And because the problem isn't "just" null sec stations. Buffing them won't solve anything, beause a portion of the problem is numbers. Simply buffing the stations isn't going to encourage anyone to live out of them, they still wouldn't be better than an NPC station in high sec.

"On par" isn't rewarding, player run stations regardless of where they are located need to be "better". Group play, risk, and effort, should be rewarded.

Why would you take a job that requires you to work more hours, with less time off, for the same amount of money? You don't, everyone expects to be paid better. Stations that are "on par" is the same as saying, "come work longer hours and more weekends for me, and I'll pay you the same wage you already make."

Stupid annologies are stupid, but it's literally how industry works right now. "On par" stations doesn't fix the problem, it's just more of the same, just slightly better now.


You're just saying CCP shoud throw the dog a bone and see if it makes it happy; it won't, because it's not addressing the actual problem. Bandaids don't fix wounds, they just cover them up.

...
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-12-18 15:48:17 UTC
SaKoil wrote:
Abu Tarynnia wrote:
HighSec has to stay in a way as it is because new players start here and should have the room AND freedom to try and gamble EVE without being f&%§ up just the moment they undock. This is something you just have to keep in mind in order to keep EVE running ... EVE needs new players!


It would easy to implement a, say, 2 month account limit after which you would be forced to move on from your mothers basement and onto low and null. This would make the game a lot better for the true newbies as they would no longer be forced to compete against t2 afk mining mackinaws and perfectly skilled industrialists.

No.

CCP shoudl not force people to do anything, only give them the tools to do what they want.

If someone wants to spend all there time in EVE playing in the NPC corp and utilizing only NPC stations, that's fine.

Everyone else should be rwarded though, and they currently are not.
As long as High sec NPC stations provide the most efficient means of conducting business, there is no way to "fiix" anything. NPC stations, utilized by players in NPC corps, should be the least effiecient and rewarding way of dong things; not the best.


High sec NPC stations are effectively perfect right now. THAT can not be compensate for with a buff anywhere. You can't get better than 100% refining. No amount of buffing will compensate; it's impossible to buff something to be better than perfect.

Anywhere that something gives perfect return, that is not a player run structure, or located in a place where you need to assume more risk and effort, needs to be made not perfect so that those other areas can be buffed up to a point that they are BETTER than what was prviously perfect.

NPC corps working in NPC stations should be the worst, not the best. You should join player run corps and use player run stations to get the best.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#19 - 2012-12-18 15:53:01 UTC
I think this should be done.

In fact, considering the risks, instead of nerfing high sec production, boost nullsec stations.

As usual, the cliche is "give people an incentive to leave high sec", so if null stations could really kick the butt in production, well, there you go.


I don't think it would break the game and cause us all to spontaneously bleed out our buttholes and drop dead on the floor if nullsec stations got a buff.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
#20 - 2012-12-18 15:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Abu Tarynnia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
"On par" stations doesn't fix the problem, it's just more of the same, just slightly better now.



You get me wrong .. the advantage you would have by sitting in NullSec would that you have ALL minerals at hand and not just those up to IsoGen .. you want bigger ships .. the buy the NullSec minerals or move to NullSec. You can get ganked anywhere, more likly in Null but on the other hand in Null you can 'now' build everything you want .. in High only up to cruisers (?! not sure of that). THAT's the benefit of moving to null .. and I am not adressing those solo players as I am right now but corps who right now dwell in highSec and dying because there is no challenge. Give them chellange .. make them work and give them a reward in form of better rats, minerals and everything you need for high end game. Take the high end game from high sec, because high sec should be for beginners and should stay so imho. Those of you players that ahd their share of experience in high sec that want more have to move to null sec.
You want that station like a high sec station .. then you will need null sec minerals. NullSec CAN be entertaining but for most its not because the dangers of loosing everything, the pressure to always look over your shoulder is more hinderance then motivation to move to null sec. BUT if you agin something in return, e.g. be able to build something bigger or mine ore that can be actually sold for good prices without all that logistics in behind ... I imagine that this might be a good 'buff' to null sec.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I don't think it would break the game and cause us all to spontaneously bleed out our buttholes and drop dead on the floor if nullsec stations got a buff.


Urgs .. at least I hope so .... :)

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
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