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why cant we have mining moved to grav sites?

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Mirima Thurander
#161 - 2012-12-15 23:34:35 UTC
See the point of this is to start conflict, by having to hunt down your site u start to see it as YOURS and having mining dude 222749D come warping into your site and striping the roads YOU found first will start to **** you off after it Happens a few times.

So it short this is a change to create conflict.

Just ask any body that dose scanning how pissed off it makes them to see someone warp in a site they just scanned down in high or lowsec and start stealing the loot or running them off.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2012-12-15 23:50:43 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
See the point of this is to start conflict, by having to hunt down your site u start to see it as YOURS and having mining dude 222749D come warping into your site and striping the roads YOU found first will start to **** you off after it Happens a few times.

So it short this is a change to create conflict.

Just ask any body that dose scanning how pissed off it makes them to see someone warp in a site they just scanned down in high or lowsec and start stealing the loot or running them off.

That's true, but I also think that this depends on their being a scarcity of sites.

If you were to replace all asteroid belts with grav sites, then in order to get the same amount of ore coming to market, you'd have to either create a lot more grav sites or massively increase the size of grav sites. Either of which would lead to less conflict than now:

If you increase the size of each site, then it becomes harder to really think of it as "yours." There's mroe ore than you could mine in 5 days, and youre still gonna get pissed off if somebody else comes and starts mining? Meh, seems less likely. I'm sure some people would, but still.

OR if you increase the number of grav sites, then it would be in people's best interest to get their own, instead of fighting with somebody and only getting half the ore at the end of the day.



It might work if you did something like make all rare ores (for the region) only available in grav sites, while common ores (for the region) are in belts. So in high sec, kernite or omber might be the "rare" ores in grav sites, while pyrox and veld are in belts. In low/null, kernite and omber and such would be common belt ores, but mercoxit, etc. would be in grav sites?
Mirima Thurander
#163 - 2012-12-16 01:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
We could do an escalation type thing where after the sites emptied there's a chance for someone In the site to get directions to a richer site.

We could possibly tie this to the stronger rats that would be spawning inside of these new sites.


People can still use combat scan probes to find you so its not like it would make you any safer.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#164 - 2012-12-16 03:43:18 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Allow better balancing of the mineral economy by fine tuning exactly what gets spawned

How is it any easier than with normal asteroid belts, which also respawn constantly, and could just as easily have their contents fine tuned?


The current belt system means that exactly the same proportion of asteroids will get spawned into exactly the same locations. Respawning is only done at DT. One of the more important benefits of moving mining to grav sites is the removal of another EVE component that relies on DT as part of its mechanic.

By moving to grav sites, it becomes easier to balance the ore abundance by spawning different sites, and adjusting the spread of ores in the sites that are spawned. The balance can be altered from hour to hour rather than day to day.

Quote:
Allow for random belt construction (rather than simply living in the same belt every day)
Allow for random scenery (or any scenery at all, in fact)

Surely CCP could randomize space scenery in existing belts, every day during downtime?[/quote]

I expect that there is a lot of legacy code tied up with asteroid belts. Introducing grav sites and slowly turning down the respawn rate on system belts will allow the legacy code to be refactored as time becomes available (or even completely removed). Putting the random belt generation code into use only for grav sites means that if things go wrong, fixes can be done relatively transparently to the players. If a particular grav site generator breaks, it's easier to simply stop that grav site spawning rather than attempt to repair a belt sitting there in space that will be respawned every DT.

Quote:
I.e. the effect would be to essentially add a lot more prerequisites to mining (shutting out newbies), and adding a layer of annoyance in having to scan and then go switch ships, and possibly even characters to actually go mine.


New characters are given Astrometrics skill book, ship, probes and some basic training. The "newbies can't participate" argument is misinformed.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#165 - 2012-12-16 07:50:18 UTC
I still don't get how this is meant to do anything but make miners earn LESS. When they already are one of the lowest income professions.
A grav site doesn't magically cause the miner to get more ore per hour. Infact they get less since they have to get their probe ship, scan down some sites, book mark them, then change into their miner, and go to said sites. So there is time not making ore.

And grav sites aren't going to magically make the ore worth more either. The only way the ore becomes 'worth' more is if mineral prices go up. And if Mineral prices go up, so does the price of literally everything else. Which means..... The miner has to pay more, so relative to the market he has made exactly the same.

And relative to the market, everyone else makes less.

So..... I'm not seeing how this enhances miners in any way at all.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2012-12-16 08:26:00 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I still don't get how this is meant to do anything but make miners earn LESS. When they already are one of the lowest income professions.
A grav site doesn't magically cause the miner to get more ore per hour. Infact they get less since they have to get their probe ship, scan down some sites, book mark them, then change into their miner, and go to said sites. So there is time not making ore.

And grav sites aren't going to magically make the ore worth more either. The only way the ore becomes 'worth' more is if mineral prices go up. And if Mineral prices go up, so does the price of literally everything else. Which means..... The miner has to pay more, so relative to the market he has made exactly the same.

And relative to the market, everyone else makes less.

So..... I'm not seeing how this enhances miners in any way at all.

As part of this kind of a change at least the Skiff/Procurer and Mackinaw/Retriever should get an extra high slot for a probe launcher, coded of course so that ONLY a probe launcher could fit in that slot. The Hulk/Covetor being a fleet mining ship there would be others to probe down a grav site.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#167 - 2012-12-16 08:26:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I still don't get how this is meant to do anything but make miners earn LESS. When they already are one of the lowest income professions.


Go have a look at the rocks currently in grav sites. Then go and look at the rocks currently in asteroid belts.

Would you spend five to ten minutes hunting down a bunch of nice grav sites so that you can then spend a couple of hours mining from floating mountains? Or do you prefer warping to your years-old bookmark and mining gravel?

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The only way the ore becomes 'worth' more is if mineral prices go up. And if Mineral prices go up, so does the price of literally everything else.


There are other factors involved which make grav site mining more productive for miners than the gravel we currently find in system belts.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#168 - 2012-12-16 08:29:51 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
As part of this kind of a change at least the Skiff/Procurer and Mackinaw/Retriever should get an extra high slot for a probe launcher, coded of course so that ONLY a probe launcher could fit in that slot. The Hulk/Covetor being a fleet mining ship there would be others to probe down a grav site.


Or introduce a new ORE frigate, a T1 version equivalent to the astrometrics frigates and a T2 equivalent to covops. The T2 version would get an orca-like bonus to survey scanner range at the expense of weapon slots. One pilot in one of these could probe down grav sites and vet them for the fleet (this one has a few very large rocks, that's good … that one has a large number of small rocks, that's bad … )

I've covered this in my blog post, "Mining is Boring".

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#169 - 2012-12-16 09:27:27 UTC
Given the limitation of grav sites available at any one time.... this will kill the mineral market and introduce hyper inflation for the prices of everything the likes of which you've never seen......

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2012-12-16 10:19:01 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Given the limitation of grav sites available at any one time.... this will kill the mineral market and introduce hyper inflation for the prices of everything the likes of which you've never seen......

It was pointed out that every asteroid belt removed from a constellation would be replaced with a grav site spawn in that constellation. So there would be the same amount of minerals comming out of each constellation as right now.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#171 - 2012-12-16 10:49:35 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I still don't get how this is meant to do anything but make miners earn LESS. When they already are one of the lowest income professions.


Go have a look at the rocks currently in grav sites. Then go and look at the rocks currently in asteroid belts.

Would you spend five to ten minutes hunting down a bunch of nice grav sites so that you can then spend a couple of hours mining from floating mountains? Or do you prefer warping to your years-old bookmark and mining gravel?

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The only way the ore becomes 'worth' more is if mineral prices go up. And if Mineral prices go up, so does the price of literally everything else.


There are other factors involved which make grav site mining more productive for miners than the gravel we currently find in system belts.

Except..... We don't find Gravel in system belts for a start. Lets take a quick snap shot.
Per m of ore.
Arkonor: 276.76
Hedbergite 283.89 (Current highest other than Merc & Merc is special)
Kernite 239.21 (Available freely in Highsec Belts)
Scordite 225.72 (Also available freely in highsec belts)
Veldspar 185.92 (This is Veld, the most common Ore)
So, you obviously have no clue about mining if you claim only 'Gravel' can be found in standard High Sec belts for a start. Can you make 'fractionaly more' some of the time with 'Low Sec Ores'. Yes. Sometimes the market also says no, and that High Sec ores are more valuable. And scanning down the 'Low Sec Ores' will eat up your time, since you will have to sift through all the Grav Sites to find them. Add onto that that if more people mine the ores, the price will drop since supply is increased compared to other minerals, meaning you won't actually make more, but less.

Followed by..... Exactly the same ore is going to be available that currently is. Unless you intend for Arkonor to be minable in high sec that is? Or a massive reshuffle of distributions. So the net output will be.... about the same. Meaning about the same prices. Or, net output will change, meaning decreased prices if more is mined, or increased prices if less is mined. I can't see how making miners probe down any sites they want to use is going to increase mineral supply, since it's added another time sink into the process, especially since people are talking about having to compete to mine, adding even yet more time sink into the process.\

Meaning the net result is likely to be decreased output, and overall increased prices for everything for everyone, meaning effectively bad inflation.

So yea, I'm still not seeing how this benefits me as a Miner. And am strongly against it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#172 - 2012-12-16 10:57:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So, you obviously have no clue about mining if you claim only 'Gravel' can be found in standard High Sec belts for a start.


Gravel = small rocks that last 1-3 cycles of a boosted Strip Miner I.

Mountains = huge rocks that last 4 or more cycles of a boosted Strip Miner I.

ISK per cubic metre has nothing to do with it. Number of complete cycles per rock is what I'm talking about: from my perspective the more cycles I can get from one rock, the happier I am.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mirima Thurander
#173 - 2012-12-16 15:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
The sites moving is the point of this if you and 50 other miners are all in the same set of stars your ether all going to end up in the same sites, or your going to move away to a richer system with LESS miners in it. Sites moving around all so has the effect if your all crowed around a few systems the sites will inevitable move from the systems your constantly strip mining.

look at it this way right now belts respawn 1 time a day, gav sites respawn every time there completed, sure u have to find them, if any thing this change makes there be more ore in eve not less.

I come to see that every player in eve but a select few have horrible entitlement problems.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#174 - 2012-12-16 23:09:23 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
The sites moving is the point of this if you and 50 other miners are all in the same set of stars your ether all going to end up in the same sites, or your going to move away to a richer system with LESS miners in it. Sites moving around all so has the effect if your all crowed around a few systems the sites will inevitable move from the systems your constantly strip mining.

look at it this way right now belts respawn 1 time a day, gav sites respawn every time there completed, sure u have to find them, if any thing this change makes there be more ore in eve not less.

I come to see that every player in eve but a select few have horrible entitlement problems.


One could call the same thing at you, since you fail to explain how there will be more ore, when mining belts rarely get stripped. You keep going on about how 'there will be more ore', but you haven't presented any reason this will be so, since the miners will have to spend time they currently would normally spend mining probing out grav sites. DECREASING their time mining.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#175 - 2012-12-16 23:13:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One could call the same thing at you, since you fail to explain how there will be more ore, when mining belts rarely get stripped.


*perks up*

Which belts aren't getting stripped?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-12-16 23:45:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One could call the same thing at you, since you fail to explain how there will be more ore, when mining belts rarely get stripped.


*perks up*

Which belts aren't getting stripped?

When i bring my personal mining crew out (2 hulks and an orca) i can strip a high sec belt in an hour. So grav sites would be a welcome change as there would be more ore to get.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Mirima Thurander
#177 - 2012-12-17 00:04:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One could call the same thing at you, since you fail to explain how there will be more ore, when mining belts rarely get stripped.


*perks up*

Which belts aren't getting stripped?

When i bring my personal mining crew out (2 hulks and an orca) i can strip a high sec belt in an hour. So grav sites would be a welcome change as there would be more ore to get.



If u have the skills trained, and the RL skills with probes to find it or get a mining site escalation upon kill all the spawned rats or depleting the sites.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#178 - 2012-12-17 14:04:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I still don't get how this is meant to do anything but make miners earn LESS. When they already are one of the lowest income professions.
A grav site doesn't magically cause the miner to get more ore per hour. Infact they get less since they have to get their probe ship, scan down some sites, book mark them, then change into their miner, and go to said sites. So there is time not making ore.

And grav sites aren't going to magically make the ore worth more either. The only way the ore becomes 'worth' more is if mineral prices go up. And if Mineral prices go up, so does the price of literally everything else. Which means..... The miner has to pay more, so relative to the market he has made exactly the same.

And relative to the market, everyone else makes less.

So..... I'm not seeing how this enhances miners in any way at all.

As part of this kind of a change at least the Skiff/Procurer and Mackinaw/Retriever should get an extra high slot for a probe launcher, coded of course so that ONLY a probe launcher could fit in that slot. The Hulk/Covetor being a fleet mining ship there would be others to probe down a grav site.

The venture already has this, the barges and exhumers don't need it.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs