Ships & Modules

The Talos has nothing to do with the Brutix being obsolete. The Myrmidon does that just fine on its own. Lrn2ships.

-Liang

I don't really agree. The Vagabond is flat superior to the Talos for small scale roaming gangs - and the Cynabal even more superior. The Talos is alright but you really are flying a pretty expensive glass cannon. The hull may come "free" (it doesn't) but the mods to fit on it certainly don't. The cost of fitting a Tier 3 BC is significantly higher than a Tier 2 BC and it's not the same discussion at all.

That isn't to say that there aren't problems with HACs, but I think comparisons between the Vagabond and the Talos are just outright laughable.

-Liang

It depends on how you define "small scale roaming". The key marker that define and differentiate a good roaming group is that they "up-engage" (same as most other groups). That doesn't mean they limit themselves to any specifics, rather, the other way around: they have a broader engagement-envelope, that involve up-engagement. They fight more things.

If you look at many competent small-scale roaming groups (and here we can define small scale as squad-sized gangs), they have predominantly changed over to Talos for broad use. The Vagabond may still see some use, and have not lost all niche, but the Talos have overtaken many roles. The role of the Vagabond has successively been limited more and more to what it does best, notably, ganking frigates. It has recieved a smaller engagement-envelope.

Let's take a quick detour over three paragraphs:
I'm not sure if these examples help, but the important bit is to understand the multiple levels this works on: During the nano era you could use "Vagabonds" to engage larger heavier gangs. That persisted through the initial post-nano era and continued to be functional over the initial use of your typical BC-gang. As time passed though, people not only grew more competent using such gangs [which limited perspectives will argue], but the reality of the environment chiseled out details in those gangs (prices gradually affected scaling etc.). So it's not single-dimensional in the sense that old "Vaga-gangs" could fight bigger BS-gangs ["because: OP"]: It also also gave incentives for the Vaga-gangs themselves to be larger etc.

Ontop of that, the Vaga then - just as it is today, was a competent solo-platform, that not only did what they do today well, but also dealt with varieties in the environment better (it was better at crushing the killzone of a bubble, building range to separate parts of hostile gangs; so even solo it was more flexible on the background of the environment, etc). That, too, persisted over the post-nano era into the Tier 2 BC era. The Talos took alot of that flexibility that still existed during the Tier 2 BC peak era. Not all of it of course, but it sent the Vaga further out on an edge.

Here comes the long overdue point of argument: So if you define "small scale roaming" as a handful of ships (~squad) with proper support the Talos have overtaken quite alot of even that slice. If you aim to engage medium-sized groups with a kiting concept today - you are more likely to pick Talos over Vaga, even if you yourself per definition are small. The slices keep getting sliced off, that's also why it's important to define what a definition imply; Vagas are still quite alright when you lack sufficient support and drop both your own squad size and your target pool lower than say: ~10 vs +/- 10. Is the Vaga better at popping frigates when solo? Of course it is, yet when you take all these dimensions and begin pairing up various combinations the Talos just hit so many sweetspots. It does too many things the Vaga do, sufficiently well, and then more ontop of it. That is the common plight of HAC to BC overall.

These multiple levels can be tracked in trends: not only do we fly less Vagabonds, but we also up-engage less with them, we up-engage less overall and when we up-engage the Talos seems preferrable. Hopefully this last bit helped unlocking some of the theoretical mumble. I like that overview, to explain what "multiple levels" imply, better myself anyway.

Back where we left off, to close this up:
That goes back to the point i argued regarding HAC overall. Prior to Crucible: BC were still very much within the HAC engagement envelope, now that is challenged (in part due to the introduction of new BC-countering ships, or ships for roles that involved countering BC-roles; amusingly enough, much of that introduction in turn was the introduction of new BC that shared problematism with the other BC and that has lead us to today with the new Cruisers etc).

When you have so many ships, and you need a niche for each one of them, then tthe niches are rather small.

Oh, and even with MWD bloom, a frigate is way under large gun resolution (attack frigate are at 200 with MWD on). The threat come from the drones, not the blasters, even though there is a danger zone at 20 to 30km.

For the sake of the argument, having the DPS that it has is one thing. But having the mobility and the tracking to go along with it is just complete crap. The vagabond used to be the kindgof hit and run small gang pvp. Get in get out and use speed and mobility to your advantage while packing a punch.

It was its bread and butter. Now the Talos does all those things but is just a tad less mobile but has the DPS and the tracking to make up for it. It's just way too mobile. Oh yeah, it's cheaper too and has a good insurance pay out..... I mean come on!

When matar is not isnta win then come the whinematards...

Your entire post is hell bent on accusing the Talos of taking away the Vagabond's role. That's bullshit and we both know it. Not seeing Vagabonds has **** all to do with the Talos and everything to do with the Cynabal - and we still see Cynabals by the ******* truckload.

At this point you're just making bullshit up and forum warrioring with an agenda. Come on man. You're better than this.

-Liang

Quite the amount of censored words there, unbecomming .

When talking dynamics i tend to tar those two ships with the same brush, so Cynabals whizzing on Vaga-land is a whole other discussion.

To put it as short as i can:

It ties into the discussion other people have regarding accuracy here. The Talos can miss twice the amount of shots and still maintain the same damage as a Vaga outside the range of the frigates' secondary tackle (which none of these ships want to be inside).

The second you have any sort of support around your ships the advantages of the Vaga, the excess tracking and speed, become limited. Apply a single web to any ship in the game and it will affect both those levels: accuracy and positioning, which further affect tracking (no bowed approach available when transversal drops). It hits the frigates well enough, and everything else better. The speed relative the tracking mechanics and the dynamics of it's weapon system is that great: how fast is a webbed Frigate? How fast is a free Talos? How many Talos does it take to volley a Frigate void of transversal? It doesn't matter if you web the Talos back unless your gang volley them like they volley you*; because they will just cycle through you and cut loose - and stand a better chance going offensive to blitz Recon too (at lower risk).

The example peaks when hostiles are bolstered with numerical superiority and have both Recons and Frigates. What option is better then? How common are those gangs? Likely, the most common engagement scenario in the game.

It also cover all scales: they can be small, medium or large and still retain those properties.

The only time you utilize the excess tracking and speed is when you limit your target pool to match that; you need it because you are not properly supported, and whatever you encounter can not either be supported (since the Vaga is not equipped to deal with that support, while the Talos is - and the Vaga take a larger financial risk when you encounter those well-supported gangs, that are pretty common if you roam around and attempt to engage varieties).

This limit your target pool to a small slice of the small-slice or the cretins that fly completely unsupported in numbers.

At the same time we shouldn't spit too much at the Vaga, because that is the appeal it still has: slim pickings (run and gank, as opposed to gank and run, or gank and regroup). It's just that it isn't very good at disengagement anymore, even though admittedly better than the Talos at not getting caught in the first place. That's useful for penetrating into territory, but the envelope is nonetheless smaller, the encouragement to engage.

Small scale roaming, at least in my book, is about creating good-fight scenarios by attempting to take interaction served.

Not necessarily commit, or stand your ground - but to engage and attempt to score kills while denying losses: ie., fight.

ed., *) That's not to say the Talos is particularily good at it, it has it's own problems facing the "bottom" of the game. Which is why i don't like the ships. In fact, the Talos suffer similar issues as today's Vaga, just not as pronounced or with a pricetag worth mentioning. The same goes for the new Cruisers. Which in turn is why i've spoken out against the rebalance initiative (not that it's bad, i just don't see it dealing with the underlying issue or resulting in something notably better over time, on the ship-changes alone - while alot of resources and time have gone into it rather than elsewhere).

You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.

I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.

Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.

And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.

My experience with the vagabond far outweighs my talos experience . If you watch Kil2's stuff you can see what i mean about loading void. He demonstrates it perfectly against a drake. That's something you just cant do in a vaga, take out reasonably tanked missile ships. The vaga relies on out-ranging most of the incoming damage and but doesnt have the straight up killing power of other HAC's/BC's in terms of in-your-face damage.

For projection and tracking, yes the vagabond is superior. For tank, DPS and cost the talos is superior. Tracking enhancers buffed the vaga, but they also increased that danger 'kill-zone' of other ships - for example the hurricane can do more damage than a vagabond but was always limited by it's falloff. With the TE changes is can easily keep up with the vagabond inside point range... unless you for out 70% of the vagabonds hull price on a 30km point and sit further out.

I don't think either ship should be nerfed - i feel the vagabond is a little out of date though, which is maybe the point this thread should have made instead of straight out saying the talos replaces the vagabond...