Ships & Modules

Hacs really are not as bad as this forum community makes them out to be. Hacs have some of the strongest "fleet level" tanks in the game through the usage of their high resistances, lowish sig, moderate speeds, and of course logi bros repping you. The impending hac buff should highlight this strength even more.

Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too.

So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?

Doesnt have the fitting or tank of a battlecruiser. Infact, they have similar fitting to old tier 2 cruisers once their guns are on.

Notice the BATTLE part in the name "battle cruiser." They're suppose to do more damage than JUST "cruisers." FFS people it's in the name.

Also Buff my ship that I use, nerf all others!

The funny thing is, the very same arguments for CCP deciding against a Torp Naga are the exact same things being said of the Talos. 1,800dps Talos is pretty facemelt. And even then, a Torp Naga would not have even approached that (and only one LARGE targets at that)...RIP Torp Naga.

Torp naga with the recent missile changes would be ******* boss..

Troll post? If not:

- Vaga with 425mms and Phased Plasma tracks 0.132 rad/s. With Barrage it tracks 0.099 rad/s. In worst case a Vaga could load Dep. Uranium and would have a tracking of 0.158 rad/s.

- a Neutron Talos tracks 0.089 rad/s with Antimatter and 0.067 rad/s when using Null.

- all without even counting in sig resolution of med vs. large turrets.

- Vaga has the same drone bay as the Talos. In addition the Vaga could fit neuts or rapid launchers without gimping it's main DPS (to fight equally sized targets).

- more DPS is useless when not applicable.

- more EHP only means dying a longer death (in this case).

I don't know Denuo... you should look at the larger picture.

All those statements can be turned around: eg., more dps is useful when you can apply it, etc.

The Talos is incredibly powerful inbetween it's relative speed, reach, damage and effective application of damage. Don't forget that being fast is a very strong advantage when using turrets. A slower ship can track alot better but still effectively track worse. What the Talos do is not tracking better than a Vaga, but tracking very well relative it's speed, reach and damage volume; and it's ability to further exploit that from things like Links or webs from friendly support. It works on the same principles that made Vaga so good against frigates.

Basicly, it can kill Vagas like Vagas kill Frigates - with good piloting and support it deals well enough with Frigates too.

The discussion isn't really how much better Tier 3 BC are than HAC anyway.

The discussion is that they are better or even comparable (at all) at basicly a free price (especially considering how the BS-turrets come with the quite nifty option of performing well even with lower meta modules).

It's the same discussion we can hold regarding Tier 2 BC when compared to HAC.

I've noted it on several occassions: It's not like Tier 2 BC were much better than HAC prior to Crucible. Most things they did where the two classes converged, the BC performed just under the HAC. The actual balance was alright. The problem was that the BC didn't cost 1/2 the price of a HAC (or w/e), but closer to 1/10 and with that had a replacement pricetag similar to Cruisers and something most pilots can chump-change within an hour (ie., nothing). HACs would beat most BC in a levelled engagement, but taking the risk against ships that give little reward wasn't very appealing to most.

Additionally, when there were larger gangs around, they could be twice as many, and you still risked more in the ship-ship performance the discouragement all of a sudden became unsurmountable. You fought against numerical odds spurred on by cost-effect, and the cost-effect itself. It always had little to do with the actual ships and their balance; when utilizing their actual bonuses all the HAC would beat their equivalent BC - assuming relatively leveled gangs. The cost disparity just either deleveled the gangs and/or made them pointless to fight with HAC based on risk-reward.

None of the issues with HAC popularity, alone, is responsible for the demise - but rather how they pile on.

ok maybe I'm wrong if so pelase correct me.

How is the Talos faster than a vaga? it's clearly not!!!? Even fit a nano II on the Talos and it's still slower?

it also has less defense due to lower resists and larger signature and less EHP/buffer.

And while the Talos does more damage it has less tracking and range (blasters vs. AC's)

the way I see it, talos has more damage, vaga wins pretty much all other aspects. What am I missing?

I'd say in contact where DPS is king the Talos is better but the Vaga still has more versatility.

Exactly. The same applies to command ships. They are not good enough for their price. And yes, price is a balancing factor, the only thing we should never forget is that it's a somewhat limited factor, but it is still there, otherwise the very existence of modules of metalevel above 5 would be moot. Sometimes price vs performance is utterly broken and in that case we get something like titans.