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PVE, Drones, The new AI and You

First post
Author
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#161 - 2012-12-08 20:17:29 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"

You're in a drone boat. Unless it's one of the new destroyers, your guns aren't fit to track frigates at point blank. In larger ships, drones were put there specifically for dealing with little frigates that got up their grill & their big guns couldn't track.

Ironically, those frigates are now exactly the ships you can no longer use drones against.


This is EXACTLY the whole problem. When you fly a BS with long-range guns, you absolutely rely on your drones to deal with frigs. Some have said "just snipe the frigs before they get in close". Well DUH!! That works fine on some missions, apparently these idiots have never done a mission where the gate drops you right in the middle of a ball of rats with frigs in it.

I don't fly drone boats. I can't even imagine how messed-up this AI adjustment is for them. As it stands now, I'm gonna have to be careful about which missions I do. Once a frig gets close enough to orbit you, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to take them out without your drones.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#162 - 2012-12-08 20:23:18 UTC
Aziesta wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"

Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay.
Honestly, if I can do it without drone hp or damage bonuses on my ship, I'll bet you can do it too. It might require some extra clicking and, god forbid, paying attention.


Everyone know this common sense aproach to dealing with frigs. Guess what. It doesn't work anymore. Either you haven't been missioning lately or your drones fly 10x faster than mine, because the frigs kill my drones so fast, they're gone before I even have a chance to recall them.

Just flew "Worlds Collide" and lost all 5 of my light drones because frigs kill them faster than they can get back into the drone bay.
Thankfully none of those frigs had me scrammed or I would have been SCREWED!
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#163 - 2012-12-08 20:26:31 UTC
Galphii wrote:
You know, there IS a weapon system perfectly suited to killing tacklers, and ships like the rattlesnake and the marauders can fit them pretty easily - smartbombs. Sure, they're potentially lethal to use in highsec, but hey, no guts, no glory! A couple of those babies will fry up enemy tacklers good and fast. Just make sure you don't have a cloaked friend hovering nearby Blink Problem solved.


Problem solved... 'cept for those who fly ships with 8 gun/missile spots.
Peter Tjordenskiold
#164 - 2012-12-08 20:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Tjordenskiold
I recommend to get more accounts to multibox or flying Tengu. BSs are out of date. I feel sorry for the newbies that trained Gallente ships. It's just that CCP is hating Gallente.

TBH demanding 2 accounts for a lvl 4 mission and make it impossible for newbies (customers!) in BS to fly them is not very clever. To me, the highsec was always the birth place of new players for low and null sec. But giving them nothing to feed, will nothing do than less customers and pilots to shoot at. When CCP is just listening to those Bitter-Vets like the CSM which having fun only, when they are offline and writing wot in forums, we will get a desaster in 2 years.
Pretty GuyYeah
#165 - 2012-12-08 21:08:52 UTC
The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones.

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2012-12-08 21:24:22 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Xearal wrote:
OR.. you could you know.. adapt..


As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game?


Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for.

actually you need (for PVE):
- Caldary Strategy Cruiser to 1
- 4-5 subsystems to 4
- T2 heavy missiles (it's like 10 days)
Total: 15 days or about

And it will be enough for PVE while you training those "needed lvl5s"

You forgot cruiser V so make that 15 + 30 = 45 days.

(That is still not much.)

cruiser V is 15 days. + some basic skills. not even close to 30

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Zack Korth
Livid CO.
#167 - 2012-12-08 22:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zack Korth
Funky Lazers wrote:
Zack Korth wrote:

Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.


"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are!

Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?!
I did!
The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them.
How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?!

Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones.
Cool stuff.


made me laugh hard, no they aren't

uninstall, only other advice i have. cause there is no forum for "butthurt complaints because EVE changed", and i'm tired of them, the truth is you just want it the way it was, cause you didn't have to think about it, you didn't have to make any efforts to secure your drones, you just let em go to work..

"oh gee wiz, 60KM off, drone range. GO GET EM", those day are over.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#168 - 2012-12-08 23:51:47 UTC
Zack Korth wrote:
uninstall, only other advice i have. cause there is no forum for "butthurt complaints because EVE changed", and i'm tired of them,

You're wrong.

We have the General Discussion forum !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Kagumichan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2012-12-09 00:10:27 UTC
Tried to counter the frig problem today by putting a light missile launcher in the spare high slot of a mega...

It didn't work.

Having two people in Maelstroms 100k away did though.

Not usefull information I know but seems the only way to comfortably do some level 4 missions now is having 3 battleships and 2 logistics, and if you got those numbers, go do scout incursions instead, or pick up a few more floating around the incursions and do vanguards instead. Agent mission rewards barely compensate for the price of 5 tech 2 light drones
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#170 - 2012-12-09 00:13:18 UTC
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones.

…aside from adapting. You know, using new strategies to keep your drones safe. Well, I say “new”, but really, the strategies are almost four years old by now.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-12-09 00:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Tippia wrote:
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones.

…aside from adapting.


I'm not going to point any fingers, but the "adapt" folks are beginning to annoy me.

You're walking down the street. You end up with a small pebble in your shoe. Do you adapt, or do you take the damn shoe off and shake the stone out? Similarly, if you want an example of second-party involvement, you're sitting on a bus and someone sits next to you with their umbrella handle poking you in the ear. Do you adapt? Or do you tell them to watch their damn umbrella?

Same principle. Just because a change happened, and it can be adapted to, it does not:
1. Make it a good change.
2. Make it worth adapting to.

And as a sidenote, the "adapt" folks are surprisingly rigid when it comes to these things. A lot of people I see saying "adapt" were the same guys who, when changes to the game were not to their own liking (WiS instead of FiS), instead of adapting whined to high heavens and shot statues in Jita. That's the ultimate irony of this game - "adapt" and HTFU cuts both ways. Too much carebearing in EVE? Adapt, HTFU or GTFO. Too little carebearing in EVE? Adapt, HTFU or GTFO. Whatever the question, it can be answered with "adapt, htfu or gtfo". We all know it. So why bother saying it?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#172 - 2012-12-09 00:53:40 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I'm not going to point any fingers, but the "adapt" folks are beginning to annoy me.
Have you tried it?

Quote:
Same principle. Just because a change happened, and it can be adapted to, it does not:
1. Make it a good change.
2. Make it worth adapting to.
Indeed. What makes it a good change is that it shakes up stale and hideously outdated content that offered about as much gameplay as watching paint dry and made it a bit more interactive. Actually, drying paint is a bit more dynamic than the old missions so that comparison was a bit unfair on the paint.

Added dynamism is itself worth adapting to, and the cheap cost of adaptation (little to no research needed, for instance, since it was all figured out six expansions ago) makes it even more so.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#173 - 2012-12-09 01:02:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones.

…aside from adapting. You know, using new strategies to keep your drones safe. Well, I say “new”, but really, the strategies are almost four years old by now.


When someone shows you the new square wheels they made you tell them they are idiots and to rethink it.
You don't mindlessly cheer them and put them on you car.
Sleeper AI works well for Sleeper sites as the sites were designed with the Sleeper AI in mind.
Old mission were not designed for new NPC AI and many are deathtraps now.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#174 - 2012-12-09 01:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Funky Lazers
Zack Korth wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
Zack Korth wrote:

Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.


"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are!

Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?!
I did!
The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them.
How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?!

Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones.
Cool stuff.


made me laugh hard, no they aren't

uninstall, only other advice i have. cause there is no forum for "butthurt complaints because EVE changed", and i'm tired of them, the truth is you just want it the way it was, cause you didn't have to think about it, you didn't have to make any efforts to secure your drones, you just let em go to work..

"oh gee wiz, 60KM off, drone range. GO GET EM", those day are over.


If you did not think about them, that's your own problem. Don't judge people by yourself.

What happends right now is more like you did - no need to use the brain because rats randomly 1-shot drones, so you can do zero about it.
Angel Elite frigs kill your T2 light drones with 1 missile. And I'm not talking about Cruisers, BC and BS.

If that never happend to you it only means that you: 1. Never did a mission once; 2. Just another troll; 3. Nullbear, which covers the 1 and 2.

So here you go, your favorite braindead gameplay.

Whatever.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-12-09 01:16:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Indeed. What makes it a good change is that it shakes up stale and hideously outdated content that offered about as much gameplay as watching paint dry and made it a bit more interactive. Actually, drying paint is a bit more dynamic than the old missions so that comparison was a bit unfair on the paint.


See, just because something gets shaken up, it doesn't mean it is a good change.

I mean, think about it. After they fix the current full-room-aggro thing. What is really going to change? I mean, REALLY? Nothing. Missions will be just as tedious. All it did was force people into constantly fighting the drone UI, which is just annoying. It's not challenging or interesting or hard, just annoying. And that's pretty much the only thing this change did, took annoyance and turned it into annoyance+10 due to added drone management. Good change? Hardly. And most people will just re-train for a Tengu, like everyone and their grandma already did, and not even bother with drones. Maybe switch to FoF missiles to run semi-AFK? Everything will keep on spinning. As such, was the time spent implementing it well-spent? I don't see how.

Now, this is not to say that I think missions are fine. They're not. They were outdated when they were introduced. They're ludicrously outdated now, absurdly so. But this wasn't the way to change them. If they wanted positive change, they should have changed missions alongside the AI.

Simplest example I can think of is a mission where you are tasked with protecting a structure. Ships spawn 1-3 at a time, depending on size, and attack the structure. Shooting them pulls aggro towards yourself. Doing this mission AFK is impossible, even with aggressive drones, as new spawns do not aggress drones, they aggress the structure. Structure dies, mission fails. Easy to do, but requires a player's participation at every step. And ship AI can be as hard as it needs to be - neuting, EWAR, what have you. But since ships come at you 1-3 at a time, they are manageable, and it will teach players to deal with these various mechanics.

And speaking of "hideously outdated content", that's what drones are. Drone mechanics, drone UI, etc. What little content there is. There's still content that's missing from drones - such as damage rigs for drones aside from sentries, drone implants, etc. They showed a nice mock-up of a new drone UI at FanFest, but since then pretty much stayed mute and ran away from any thread even mentioning the word "drones".
Tykari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-12-09 01:27:27 UTC
To all the people who say people just need to adapt clearly haven't been playing enough missions yet. Some missions are just as easy as ever, with little or no change yes. Other missions however, have become a tremendous pain to do. Among these are missions with NPC's who have lots of EWAR (not just the ECM kind) and don't hesitate to use it. They were annoying before but now with the getting full room aggro problem they are a nightmare.

Serpentis damping you down to below 10 km lock range while in a drone boat means you can never hope to hold enough aggro to not have them blast your drones out of the sky, be it sentries or others. And before long they'll be swarming all over your ship at which point any drone outside will get blasted faster than you can recall it, and if among those npc's there are scrambling frigates you might even end up dead if you don't get out fast enough. Smartbombs don't tend to be useful as a lot of frigate NPC's stay well out of that range unless you happen to have a fancy expensive officer one fitted.

The tactics that are valid against the Sleepers are valid in missions yes, and they will also work. Some missions however are either bugged or terribly unbalanced now making them impossible to do with certain types of ships. The recalling and launching a second flight of drones bug is handy for now yes, but as mentioned they'll be closing that loop hole.

The fact that the entire drone ui and drone system is outdated and sluggish and terrible to manage only adds to the problem. Recalling drones quickly when they get shot is all fine and good, but if the interface lags and the (recall) command has a few seconds delay (and yes this does happen far too often) it can mean life or death for a drone. And if you're not using sentries the travel times mean you lose dps each time you recall and send them out again.

While the new AI is a welcome change and in a lot of cases doesn't cause such big problems and let's be honest won't change much to what missions were before, there are cases where they do and coupled with other broken mechanics these are cases that should be addressed.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#177 - 2012-12-09 01:37:47 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I mean, think about it. After they fix the current full-room-aggro thing. What is really going to change? I mean, REALLY?
You will still need to have different aggro management techniques (including getting rid of aggro for a while, which will help you with some of the other changes). If you mass-run them in teams, you will need to adjust who does what when. Oh, and then there's the whole mission-intrusion bit… Twisted
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
#178 - 2012-12-09 01:44:44 UTC
I am not a fan of paper drones.
Mokanor Lenak
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2012-12-09 05:27:05 UTC
Aziesta wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"

Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay. Rightclick->warp to station to get new 5 drones as all of them died in 2 seconds.


Just added the last bit to fixed it for you right there.

NPC damage on drones is currently too high.
Unless you keep the frigates to last, sometimes when launching drones without spending enough time generating aggro on the NPC, the drones will be picked up instantly and die almost instantly.

I ended up with 5 frigates shooting my BS today in one pocket. I had to send and recall my drones 4 times until the NPC stopped targeting them instantly. Than I waited about a minute of webbing the frigates until I considered the aggro enough to send them out again.

I can't image how a new player will react if he send his drones on frigates, they pop in 2-3 seconds, and than he is there, in his relatively new T1 BS, scrammed and webbed by NPC frigates, without any counter measure at all. Can't log off because of NPC timer, can't warp out, can't out run the frigates.
Most likely, he will end up quitting from "WTF is going on??". I'm not sure its what CCP intended (or I might be wrong and secretly they are into making PvE players quit and keep only the PvP players, go figure).
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#180 - 2012-12-09 08:01:05 UTC
Just give up on drones. CCP hates them. I started with a Gallente toon years ago and learned of CCPs hatred of drones with each new patch. Just train anything but drones. I finally gave in to the Borg and started a Caldari toon and couldnt be happier. As for my Gallente pilot....well...he can still mine.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"