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PVE, Drones, The new AI and You

First post
Author
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-12-07 21:33:20 UTC
Drones were the perfect counter measure for Serpentis parallel/sequential damping. You can't get a lock? That's okay, your drones can thin out the field.

If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. The inability to lock means guns or missiles are really ineffective. What? Smartbombs?

The new AI, with it's insane focus on drones, effectively eliminates the perfect counter measure to Serpentis damping. This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#122 - 2012-12-08 00:24:58 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Drones were the perfect counter measure for Serpentis parallel/sequential damping. You can't get a lock? That's okay, your drones can thin out the field.

If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. The inability to lock means guns or missiles are really ineffective. What? Smartbombs?

The new AI, with it's insane focus on drones, effectively eliminates the perfect counter measure to Serpentis damping. This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced.


It's not a "perfect counter measure", it's the only way to deal with the dampers.

Whatever.

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#123 - 2012-12-08 00:53:48 UTC
Haoibuni wrote:
Gallente guys who are a bit new and despairing at all their time spent skilling drones:

Take the plunge and move to null sec. You can do forsaken hubs. These hubs don't have any frigate rats and the cruisers / BSs don't target your sentries.

Your sentry domi will shine. You can make 35mill ticks (subject to tax) with good sentry drone skills and BS5 even with crappy T1 guns.

Probably 30mill with BS4.

Do 4 of them in a row, will take 1hr 15mins, and then go salvage the 4 on the trot. Just 4 warps required all in the same system and you get another 35-50mill in salvage / loot for an additional 20mins work

So that nets you about 150mill for 1hr 35mins ratting.

Domi fit doesn't need to be pimp neither (use ASB fit - they work even after nerf) as it's a tiny bit risky as it has to sit still.

Or sod the drones and do the above in a naga (but needs T2 guns and Void to pull in the best isk/hr).


I always wonder why Null sec players encourage this when Complexes and the like have respawn timers that generally mean they are limited use for all players.

More players means less opportunity to do them. In highsec, even as worthless as these places are, they are often empty. In Lowsec, I'd guess they aren't particularly available either, though it's not like you have much opportunity to check them there. I never do, or almost never.

Null barely has enough interesting plexes to feed the interested players there; why would you invite more players unless you were just shamelessly plugging and didn't realize that they were being used up by the players you already have, or just didn't care.

Always loved the, "Let them fight about it when they get here," attitude to recruiting; it adds such long term stability to organizations that rely on it."
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#124 - 2012-12-08 01:06:12 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Drones were the perfect counter measure for Serpentis parallel/sequential damping. You can't get a lock? That's okay, your drones can thin out the field.

If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. The inability to lock means guns or missiles are really ineffective. What? Smartbombs?

The new AI, with it's insane focus on drones, effectively eliminates the perfect counter measure to Serpentis damping. This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced.


Cripes.. just reship and/or refit. This isn't that hard to conceive of unless you are already an Alt who has been trained only for a specific ship and fit, and moved to a secondary slot after.

Damps reduce range; use mods to increase range. If too many damps and or other EWAR to counter effectively, find another tactic. Too many small ships; bring in a Smartbombing Abaddon. Start the mission in a Destroyer, use Light or Medium Drones until Cruisers are dealt with. Bring more people.

With Missions being harder to solo, that means that will affect all players equally provided there is a limited ability for them to adapt to it, and higher risk for those that do. That means more players will be interested in teamwork to complete these missions. Teamwork means you have more people who can open missions and selectively choose which ones you are going to run.

etc..

This isn't complicated. Of course, I haven't run a level 4 in ages, but I used to run C6 Sleeper sites with friends and that wasn't so hard.

The average Missioners problem is mostly that he is interested only in completing a string of highly predictable monotonous tasks in order to achieve a short term goal. Warp in, catch aggro, release drones, select targets, reference mission report for spawn triggers, kill other ships, move forward, use long range guns to grab additional aggro, rinse, repeat, etc..
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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-12-08 01:11:52 UTC
They still aren't getting that the sleepers are still harder than the lvl 4 missions, huh?

Maybe CCP oughtta put some real sleeper AI into mission rats just to show them how easy they really have it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#126 - 2012-12-08 01:20:36 UTC
Sorry, a lot of negative, closed-minded reactions on the forums lately have made me rather irritable and maybe a bit harsh in my responses to some posts such as these.

If it were any other game and you were playing it for the first time, would you have a difficulty adapting to the situations you encounter and finding a means to overcome them?

Of course you wouldn't; now go out and do it. Bear
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Zack Korth
Livid CO.
#127 - 2012-12-08 01:31:38 UTC
Try this, it works and not a glitch or anything.

If you're fighting the rats from a distance, wait till the frigs are on you (i know it feels so wrong) and then deploy the drones. Take out as many as you can while they approach, and continue removing all frigs if you can at close range. Once they are dead, the drones are pretty much safe to peck on BS', they don't get that aggro cause (assuming you're in a BS) you'll be more of a threat to them than the drones.
Alayna Le'line
#128 - 2012-12-08 01:39:26 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Alayna Le'line wrote:

It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is, the fact that it was left in on purpose makes it not an exploit. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes.
Yes it's a bug and when you exploit it you're exploiting a bug. It's sort of like when some goonswarm members got greedy and exploited the crap out of the FW rules and then got busted to hell. Eve's history is full of people exploiting game mechanics only to be busted by CCP ..


Right, let me try to explain this to you again. CCP knows of this unintended behaviour, CCP is not fixing this unintended behaviour because they know missioning in drone boats is otherwise too hard for most to handle. CCP will fix this behaviour when they make further changes to the mission rat AI. So simply put: this behaviour was unintended but ended up being beneficial to more or less keep drone boats usable in missions. As such it was kept until they make further changes to the AI, this makes it neither a bug nor an exploit for all practical purposes. That is all. Now kindly stop spreading FUD.

On a related note, sleepers have no bearing on this discussion, sleeper sites were designed with sleepers in mind, missions were not. There's a reason you don't find huge numbers of sleepers in one pocket. Also, sleeper sites give "slightly" better rewards than level 4s.
Jawas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-12-08 01:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jawas
Manes Avatarr wrote:

1. We will encourage ppl to team play in PVE and mission ops will become more popular.
2. We need to cut down easy money from L4s
3. Solo pilots will start new account and pay us more
4. Some ppl will whine about it, some will enjoy changes. Ppl will adapt, eventually.


1. Or players will quit.
2. The easy money is on mining instead now that the Venture is here.
3. Or solo pilots will quit.
4. Or people will quit.

Just remember that quitting is actually an alternative for some people if they feel that PLAYING A GAME isn't FUN any more. Face it, that's why we play a game, to have fun and not everybody's idea of fun is trying to perform an impossible task, nor is it to be ganked every time they undock which is why they don't go down to lowsec/nullsec.

Personally, I don't find it that much different but I only use drones for additional DPS, it just takes me a tiny bit longer to pop a battleship than before without my drones but I can live with that. I managed to solo Angel Extravaganza which has always been a PITA and I've been soloing lvl4's a lot on my Amarr main since the patch, more often than not, with the Absolution rather than the Paladin.

I usually pop any frigates first or send the drones after them if they get in under my range and that sorts out the webbers and scramblers and leaves me free to warp out if things get too rough. Then work my way up in size rather than down, taking the cruisers out next which cuts down the DPS considerably and the remaining battleships, I can tank all day. Not had to warp out yet though. But that has always been my strategy ever since I started doing lvl4's before Blood Lines.

To save the drones on most occasions, I recall them between each wave, wait until I have aggro and then deploy them to take out frigates. What I actually dislike is how easy a NPC battleship can pop your drones from 60K away compared to how difficult it is for you to pop drones in a battleship due to tracking limitations and their tiny sig radius. Also not good how a NPC battleship or even a cruiser can lock your drones in a couple of seconds compared to your 30 seconds or more to lock a drone, even with sensor boosters.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2012-12-08 02:30:50 UTC
you sir are offering advice to post patch forum complainers ... it's like stepping into traffic

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-12-08 02:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
EDITED: I don't know how this post ended up here, but I remember putting it on another thread entirely.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2012-12-08 02:36:05 UTC
This is a good idea but I still like snipper killing npc frigs and destroyers at about 30k.
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
#133 - 2012-12-08 02:40:19 UTC
I just AFK ice mine to avoid the new drones and missions.

People in this forum just need to learn how to deal with problems.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#134 - 2012-12-08 02:47:30 UTC
Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"

You're in a drone boat. Unless it's one of the new destroyers, your guns aren't fit to track frigates at point blank. In larger ships, drones were put there specifically for dealing with little frigates that got up their grill & their big guns couldn't track.

Ironically, those frigates are now exactly the ships you can no longer use drones against.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Aziesta
Serenity Labs
#135 - 2012-12-08 03:40:20 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"

Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay.
Honestly, if I can do it without drone hp or damage bonuses on my ship, I'll bet you can do it too. It might require some extra clicking and, god forbid, paying attention.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-12-08 05:09:46 UTC
Something to consider: CCP Ytterbium said at the fanfest that missions were boring, anti-social, and needed to be fixed. PvP content is more important to fix than PvE content, but at some point, they're going to revamp the mission system to make it play more like PvP (woo!) So don't write Eve off yet, the devs know missions are broken and have been for a long time. Oh, and the irony here is that drones are awesome in lowsec now, as gate guns won't target them. Come to lowsec and play Pirate

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#137 - 2012-12-08 05:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Tried that, it didn't work. When you've got 30+ rats on your screen and all of them decide to alpha your drones at once, the drones die. First salvo. The end. And that's exactly what happens, by the way.

As people have pointed out, Sleeper AI works in sleeper sights because you're only facing 5 or 6 ships at once (or so I'm told). But when you plug that same AI into 30+ ships at once it turns into the dysfunctional mess we have now.

What's really pathetic is that it's obvious that CCP removed things like "lock on time" from NPC ships, at least in regard to drones. You can deploy a flight of light drones - the smallest sig - and enemy battleships will be shooting at them in under a second. Have you ever tried to target a drone in a player ship? It takes forever. The tiny sigs come into play when we try to target drones. The NPCs? Not even part of the equation.

And because sig is no longer part of the equation the drones are now getting hit far more often than before. See, rats have always been able to target drones. The question was "Could they hit them?" Little light drones had few HP but we good at dodging fire. Big drones had lots of HP but were easier for NPCs to hit. But now that mechanic has gone out the window and NPCs hitting drones has become automatic. If they're in range, they hit. Drone signature radius has obviously been removed from all NPC calculations.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-12-08 05:40:08 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:


If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure.


Excellent. Then I would advise you check out the marketplace for four new skills so you may reduce your ignorance:

Magnetometric Sensor Compensation;

Gravimetric Sensor Compensation;

Ladar Sensor Compensation;

& Radar Sensor Compensation

You will find what ships they best suit in the skill explanations.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-12-08 06:06:24 UTC
You know, there IS a weapon system perfectly suited to killing tacklers, and ships like the rattlesnake and the marauders can fit them pretty easily - smartbombs. Sure, they're potentially lethal to use in highsec, but hey, no guts, no glory! A couple of those babies will fry up enemy tacklers good and fast. Just make sure you don't have a cloaked friend hovering nearby Blink Problem solved.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-12-08 06:17:49 UTC
Galphii wrote:
You know, there IS a weapon system perfectly suited to killing tacklers, and ships like the rattlesnake and the marauders can fit them pretty easily - smartbombs. Sure, they're potentially lethal to use in highsec, but hey, no guts, no glory! A couple of those babies will fry up enemy tacklers good and fast. Just make sure you don't have a cloaked friend hovering nearby Blink Problem solved.


Yeah... loosing a smartbomb in highsec now gets you c-flagged instantly, not just if it kills someone illegally.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104