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EVE Online: Retribution 1.0 Feedback

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Ehdward Spengler
Diplomatic Immunization
#1121 - 2012-12-08 16:54:42 UTC
Cayle Deteis wrote:
Ehdward Spengler wrote:
Bounties need two things that could balance their possible abuse:

1.) Put a time limit on them.

2.) Instead of a big red"WANTED" on character portraits, put a big yellow "BOUNTY" instead.



is that the issue?

and......timer?????

we talking about sandbox ok?
I choose to have a legitimate ingame char
buy/sell things - make things and extract ore.
What is illegal in that? Why someone have the right to put a bounty on me?
Imagine this situation in real life? One morning to see yourself on police wanted list just because someone want to make fun?
Bottom line,
we are putting effort and money in this game and some ppl are playing with us..... the customers.
Please just consider this.


I'm not crazy about the new system either but it's not completely broken like the old one. It just needs some refinement.

We are all supposed to be having fun, it is a game after all. PvP isn't the only way to have fun in EVE. It would be nice if people would realize that.
Iexo Peoa
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1122 - 2012-12-08 17:37:57 UTC
I'm getting in here a little late, and don't know how much weight my input will have, but I figured I'd put my two cents in anyway.

First off, salvage drones are a neat idea, and quite handy, but the "Salvage" option needs to be moved to the top of the menu, like with mining drones and combat drones. It's painfully inconvenient, having it buried in there, and it's dangerously close to "Abandon Drone" where it is. As well, salvage drones seem to have trouble auto-salvaging blue wrecks, and white wrecks killed in a mission accepted by someone else, even if they're a member of your fleet, and even if you killed those wrecks.

Second, I dunno who designed the Algos and Corax, but they need their salaries doubled. These are some of the best looking ships I've ever seen in EvE. They handle pretty well, too, very fun.

Third, the new AI can be fun, but completely break droneboats, some irreparably. Drones need to be overhauled, and soon, to be more usable as a weapon.

Fourth, I'm sorry, but I do miss the jukebox. I liked listening to the old soundtrack song by song, seeing which was playing, and even applying my own soundtrack to Eve, by pulling in music from my computer. Perhaps the jukebox could be brought back either as an option, or in such a way that combines it's functionality with the simplicity of the current system, such that noone would notice it's presence unless they looked for it.

Fifth, I like the new UI, very sleek. Drones need a new UI, though, and perhaps some new effects, to go with the new gun, missile, and explosion effects.


Well, that's my two (five) cents, keep up the good work.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1123 - 2012-12-08 19:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Has there been any mention of mental rates of sensor damping going on?

First post not updated and mahoooosive threadnought Sad

Edit: And full room aggro - seriously - fix that
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#1124 - 2012-12-08 19:08:33 UTC
Didn't notice this posted before:

Pre-Retribution: Clicking or shift-clicking on the open container icon at a POS array would open up a new window that defaulted to the last hangar that was opened.

Post-Retribution: Clicking or shift-clicking thankfully doesn't have as much lag as it used to, but now always defaults to the first hangar.

Is this a bug or intended?

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.
Kaivaja
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1125 - 2012-12-08 19:20:16 UTC
Wigster Atild wrote:
WTF??? need big expensive ship to gank??

My wording was unclear. What I meant is that you need to be in an expensive ship to make it worth it to suicide gank you for your bounty. And if you are in an expensive ship, somebody would suicide gank you anyway even without bounty. The point is that having bounty on you doesn't make much of a difference and thus high sec dwellers shouldn't worry about random bounties on them.
Wigster Atild
Enderas's Holdings Corporation
#1126 - 2012-12-08 19:55:10 UTC
Kaivaja wrote:
Wigster Atild wrote:
WTF??? need big expensive ship to gank??

My wording was unclear. What I meant is that you need to be in an expensive ship to make it worth it to suicide gank you for your bounty. And if you are in an expensive ship, somebody would suicide gank you anyway even without bounty. The point is that having bounty on you doesn't make much of a difference and thus high sec dwellers shouldn't worry about random bounties on them.


Ok your wording may have been unclear but the complete quote would show we high sec care bears DO VERY MUCH need to concider carefully every time we undock whether or not we wanna risk a lot of hard earned (and getting harder every update) isk in the form of ships, mods and clones - now that the bounty can be claimed twice, once for the ship and one for the pod.

DON'T FLY WONT YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE...
Another player stated that this statement predates this update by a along time and is correct so if i got 3 ships a frig (for running around) a cain for missions and a noctis for salvage and looting... what is an afordable ship to undock in 1.0? all because another player sitting bored in a battle group in null is trolling a help chat?? its not in the spirit of the game and against CCP's own terms as i've already posted and linked the terms CCP are breaking... post #1022
below again is the whole statement from the post you is quoting...

WTF??? need big expensive ship to gank?? bullcrap just go you tube and type in 'high sec gank' and check out the vids...
theres a guide to high sec ganking using dessies and costing around 7m isk so any bounty over that is profit. if gankers can now gain rewards on top of thrills when committing offences against other players give me one good reason for them to say no??? what good sense of moral judgement???? care bears have been screwed by CCP plain and simple fecked up our drones increased mission difficulties and made it hunting season on us...

so what is 20% of 100mill?? oh yeah 20 mill... so a 11mill bounty on my head flying a noctis (slow to move or warp) kitted and worth 100 mill ish the BH get 20% of my worth or the full bounty which ever is the smaller figure.. so they get 11m they make 4 mill profit i lose 100mill and if im podded well full +5's so kiss good by half a billion isk.


Go to you tube look up high sec ganking... there is even a clan who specialise in high sec ganking... now they get to be paid for disruptive gaming??? again WTF????
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#1127 - 2012-12-08 20:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Syri Taneka
Wigster Atild wrote:
And you're aware, of course, that activities like can flipping and mission loot stealing were designed to bait the miner or missioner into shooting first? Which, by CONCORD's definition, makes them the criminal? Do you really want that system back?

I don't. We'll see how the new system shakes out, but the old one was convoluted and counterintuitive, and all that meant was that griefers who'd had the time and experience to understand the rules could prey on new or casual players who hadn't had that experience or taken that time. What kind of justice is that?

The basic hypothesis of the new system is sound: players are going to be better judges than any computer. Not always, but then this is a game where people shooting other people is a core aspect of the gameplay.

I like the little touch of misogyny there. It really drives your point home.

And the motto "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" predates this expansion by years.






I dont disagree with most of what you are saying about the holes in the old system however i do not believe you fix holes by further ripping open the hole.... players are now able to bounty a player for nothing more than asking for help in the help chat - as I was.. this action is just a further extension of trolling and is designed to antagonize the victim and is an offence under eve's current terms.. as displayed @

http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/chatrules.asp

Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as "flaming," personal attacks are statements which are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing an "in character" dispute become an "out of character" personal attack. The game is designed for role playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Keep ingame disputes out of these channels, please.

Trolling is prohibited.
"Trolling" is the phrase used to describe a remark which is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the members of the community. Comments of this nature are disruptive and will not be tolerated.

Further i think that the following paragraph from rules and policies very much sums up the mentality associated with unprovoked random bounties..

http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp


You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

Now as for the phrase don't fly anything you cant afford to lose is fine if you have 5 years plus training behind you. however players new to the game or players like myself who have started from scratch again after over 6 years training the same pilot you fly what you are trained to fly and if like myself you wanna be a carebear and fight npc's over the constant pvp action of null space then I should be allowed to play in relative piece as the paragraph above clearly states.. the way the bounties is currently administered is imo in direct conflict with CCP's own terms...

And in over 6 years as a paying member i have never had a bounty placed on me until they made this change and im sure a lot of others who have had random bounties placed on them have not been bountied before either..

CCP advocate that there is room for all types of players and if the current bounty system is continued then this would only prove to reinforce your understanding of that the only way to play is 'pick a side and pvp'... i got bored of sitting in null waiting for hours to take part in big fleet fight that lasted 5-10 mins before i'm floating in my pod or back at a station in a new clone.

http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/chatrules.asp
quote from above terms..
Be community-minded.
Express yourself in ways that are constructive and will help to foster the growth of the community. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game.

random bounties in chats designed to help players really doesn't fit the above statement..

personally though i think the discussion of whether the new bounty office is being exploited and used to justify unprovoked attacks on other players needs to be addressed by CCP and the fact they have not and are not replying to petitions on this subject is concerning to anyone who is affected by the change...


I still don't get why you're comparing posting bounties to CHAT RULES.

Quote:
so what is 20% of 100mill?? oh yeah 20 mill... so a 11mill bounty on my head flying a noctis (slow to move or warp) kitted and worth 100 mill ish the BH get 20% of my worth or the full bounty which ever is the smaller figure.. so they get 11m they make 4 mill profit i lose 100mill and if im podded well full +5's so kiss good by half a billion isk.


1) Never, ever actually use +5s if you're planning to undock. I use +3s.

2) One Thrasher is not enough to gank a Noctis. Especially if you fit it worth a damn.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#1128 - 2012-12-08 20:24:10 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Edit: And full room aggro - seriously - fix that


An unfortunate side effect of a) Sleeper AI (rats aren't dumb as posts anymore) and b) not refactoring npc numbers to account for this...

That said! Myself and 2 alliance mates ran the Angel Military Operations site in RR BS' (Rattlesnake, Machariel, and Tempest) today with no problems. None of us got more than 25% shield damage, no drones died.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#1129 - 2012-12-08 20:33:24 UTC
Cayle Deteis wrote:
Ehdward Spengler wrote:
Bounties need two things that could balance their possible abuse:

1.) Put a time limit on them.

2.) Instead of a big red"WANTED" on character portraits, put a big yellow "BOUNTY" instead.



is that the issue?

and......timer?????

we talking about sandbox ok?
I choose to have a legitimate ingame char
buy/sell things - make things and extract ore.
What is illegal in that? Why someone have the right to put a bounty on me?
Imagine this situation in real life? One morning to see yourself on police wanted list just because someone want to make fun?
Bottom line,
we are putting effort and money in this game and some ppl are playing with us..... the customers.
Please just consider this.


What it really comes down to is that the bounty system is not a CONCORD thing. At best it is overseen by CONCORD, but they do not do the payouts, they do not foot the bill, bounty is entirely player driven. Since CONCORD is not setting bounties, bounty system has nothing to do with security or good/evil. It is entirely about player A incentivizing the death of player B.
Wigster Atild
Enderas's Holdings Corporation
#1130 - 2012-12-08 20:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Wigster Atild
@ Syri Taneka

If players miss use the chats to place bounties this is an extension of trolling ... bounties randomly handed out for Using the chat rooms as intended - no rules being broken - just asking for info on the drone changes for instance (as happened to me) is clearly breaking the terms of chat conduct as is very clearly written regarding flaming and trolling .. random bounties in help chats are clearly covered in the chat terms as this is clearly flaming and/or trolling and CCP's terms state that the behaviour will not be tolerated...
So the way the bounty office is being used is an exploit??
Or is this what CCP wanted??
If they would just post a feckin reply with an official decision then i can then decide weather or not to sell my small fleet of ships and just buy dessies and go screw with other peoples game too if its now an acceptable way to behave in game..



and i was unawhere that players who suicide gank all work alone... esp as i've been ganked by groups twice flying haulers through jita... so maybe u wanna tell us just how many dessies it takes to kill a noctis... sounds like a bad feckin joke... just like the bounty office is now... why feckin bother with concord and security at all lets make eve sec stat free..

and whats the point of paying membership to sit in dock just training?? i pushed throgh to lvl 5 cybernetics and grabbed up +5's like greedy baby to the boob.. i dont go low sec and i dont use this pilot for null space either and until I have better skills than I got after only 60 days on this pilot there is little else to do but care bear or screw with others... i chose to care bear and skill faster in high sec where there is supposed to be a little safety from getting murked..


BOUNTIES ON CARE BEARS IS MURDER!!!
Wigster Atild
Enderas's Holdings Corporation
#1131 - 2012-12-08 21:54:05 UTC
And another 5 mill bounty placed on me while docked and logged out... must have been something i said here.. wow out of game forums is a great way to be bountied and so very clearly within the terms of player conduct to take out of game disputes back into game..

So players are gonna stop using in game public chats and help chats and are gonna stop using the forums how is the in the best interest of the community?

http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/chatrules.asp

Quote:
Be community-minded.
Express yourself in ways that are constructive and will help to foster the growth of the community. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game.


well maybe CCP need to amend that one... cause it seems if you voice an opinion its now gonna cost you something in game..

Its clearly against CCP's own terms.. still don't see it?? try reading it carefully or getting a grown up to explain it...


Maybe a rewrite should go something like...

Screw the Community..
Its a dog eat dog universe, express yourself anyway you want too so long as its not constructive and has no chance of helping foster the growth of the community.. free exchanges of ideas is a waste of time - don't bother with community and screw the development of the game...

The fact CCP wont even post a rebuke or attempt in anyway to explain why players who do no harm to others in game should be subject to bounties.. maybe Gurists should be sending the bounty notice on players with positive standing instead of concord...


BOUNTIES ON CARE BEARS IS MURDER!!
Ehdward Spengler
Diplomatic Immunization
#1132 - 2012-12-08 22:23:50 UTC
All in all, this seems like a solid expansion. Some of these comments seem to be getting a bit hysterical. Carebears are paying customers too. Chasing away subscriptions seems like a pretty stupid thing to do. I doubt that is CCP's goal. But then who knows other than CCP, they had a pretty half-baked concept for Incarna.

So anyway, I never understood the hate directed at carebear miners. They are part of the in game economy and are necessary for it to work. Someone has to do all that mind-numbing rock and ice crunching, just be glad it's not you. I'll also reiterate, carebears subscribe like everyone else.

Let's just hope CCP never makes EVE f2p. Then there will be more than muted login audio to worry about.
Dirch Passer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1133 - 2012-12-08 22:43:49 UTC
So far my impression of Retribution has been one of mixed emotions.

An incredible amount of cool eyecandy has been delivered, along with some game mechanics, that I believe could lead to new and entertaining content.

On the other hand, I see my primary means of income - missions - become incredibly risky, with no increased reward. Don't get me wrong. I like that some of the missions are more challenging. Some of them! Some missions are downright lethal now. and I'd be cool with that, if there was a chance I'd get more than 1-10 mill. ISK for putting a 1300000000 isk boat on the line.

I'm not so cool with the fact, that someone decided that "Missions must be more fun and like PvP and stuff", and proceed to alter a few variables, so NPCs now also hate drones. Screw the drones! The whole mission mechanic is borked now.
If mission running is that frowned upon, then just remove it, and replace it with something else. Else adjust it carefully!
I do regret reprocessing all those t1 drones.


Now about those sounds...
First of all, I think it's a pity that I can't hear that fantastic login music, because I absolutely have to turn off the in game music. Such a shame!
Secondly, I'd like the volume to be balanced. Please for the love of every speck of Veldspar, balance the volume!! Especially the VERY loud noise when a ship blows up or a wreck is salvaged. It is annoying beyond belief.

Get the balance right!
Ehdward Spengler
Diplomatic Immunization
#1134 - 2012-12-08 22:51:11 UTC
Additionally, I think some are forgetting an important fact: bounties are not kill rights. But if you have a criminal or suspect tag, anyone anywhere can blow you out of the sky with no repercussions from CONCORD. Coming into high sec is now more dangerous for would-be troublemakers. Everyone is now "the law". This is not a small thing. High sec will now be more secure, not the opposite as some claim.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1135 - 2012-12-08 22:53:29 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Edit: And full room aggro - seriously - fix that


An unfortunate side effect of a) Sleeper AI (rats aren't dumb as posts anymore) and b) not refactoring npc numbers to account for this...

That said! Myself and 2 alliance mates ran the Angel Military Operations site in RR BS' (Rattlesnake, Machariel, and Tempest) today with no problems. None of us got more than 25% shield damage, no drones died.



Tried to do 'A Demonstration' with an Ishtar (Full Corpum A Type and Tech II) and a tengu. Both had to withdraw. Lost one Ogre II faster than I could pull it back to the drone bay. I have 11m sp in drones and lvl 5 in every single skill related to this ship, it's fitting, and those drones.

So, to those that deny that drones get autopopped as soon as they appear, I can say that it's true, and my drones are a tad tougher than most.
Dirch Passer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1136 - 2012-12-08 23:10:18 UTC
I forgot to mention, that I really, really appreciate the new audio 'messages'. such as low cap etc. Thank you!
Chiro San
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1137 - 2012-12-08 23:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Chiro San
So I like this game I really do, been playing since 2006. I like to come in do the fleets if there is one up etc. When there isn't I like to explore for mag/radar/plex sites and run them, my alt is usually in a cov ops (for hacking) or a logi (for plex's).

So last night I found a radar site, not my fav but hey, i can use it to check out the new AI. I warp in with my drake at 90km all is fine, then i get full room aggro from the missile batteries, np I think...hmmm they can hit me out to 75k and i cant hit them until i get to 44k (maxed missile skillz btw)...np, double exp hardner and a invul i can tank it. get to withing range for my heavies and pop 1 missile batt, then the room explodes with cruisers and scramming frigs ...again np as i align out still firing at the missile spam. Set out the drones to kill off some of the frigs...no lie guys, before 2 cycles of my launchers have fired 3 of my drones are dead, i recall them to save them (or whats left of them) for later. switch over to T2 precisions and start pounding on the frigs...redeployed the drones to help and they die even faster and due to the almost non existent damage from my missiles my drake goes pop...I know its just a drake, but come on really, on a f****** radar site...
Tyr Styrkar
Hellsing Arms Weapon Industrials
#1138 - 2012-12-08 23:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyr Styrkar
The description given for the Mining Frigate Skill is "Skill at operating Mining Barge." This a mistake?
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1139 - 2012-12-08 23:59:08 UTC
Chiro San wrote:
I know its just a drake, but come on really, on a f****** radar site...



It's severly ****** up, it's true. Though not nearly as bad as some. I remember back in 2005 the missions right after patch were so absurd that a lvl 2 wiped a ten man fleet, 5 of which were battleships.

Mind you, that wasn't deliberate like this, and we got our ships refunded, which you will never get now days, even if it you have an audio recording made by Helmar, in his office of the devs admitting they screwed up and your ships was one of those lost to the bug.
Dirch Passer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1140 - 2012-12-09 00:00:17 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Edit: And full room aggro - seriously - fix that


An unfortunate side effect of a) Sleeper AI (rats aren't dumb as posts anymore) and b) not refactoring npc numbers to account for this...

That said! Myself and 2 alliance mates ran the Angel Military Operations site in RR BS' (Rattlesnake, Machariel, and Tempest) today with no problems. None of us got more than 25% shield damage, no drones died.


Today I saw an NPC battleship haul ass at more than 3km/s. Not that it was particularly dangerous at the time, but the point is, that the mission mechanic is so out of whack that it's difficult to assess whether or not you'll have a chance at succeeding.
Mordus Headhunters, for instance, can be a bit hairy these days...