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PVE, Drones, The new AI and You

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Zack Korth
Livid CO.
#141 - 2012-12-08 06:25:31 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Tried that, it didn't work. When you've got 30+ rats on your screen and all of them decide to alpha your drones at once, the drones die. First salvo. The end. And that's exactly what happens, by the way.

As people have pointed out, Sleeper AI works in sleeper sights because you're only facing 5 or 6 ships at once (or so I'm told). But when you plug that same AI into 30+ ships at once it turns into the dysfunctional mess we have now.

What's really pathetic is that it's obvious that CCP removed things like "lock on time" from NPC ships, at least in regard to drones. You can deploy a flight of light drones - the smallest sig - and enemy battleships will be shooting at them in under a second. Have you ever tried to target a drone in a player ship? It takes forever. The tiny sigs come into play when we try to target drones. The NPCs? Not even part of the equation.

And because sig is no longer part of the equation the drones are now getting hit far more often than before. See, rats have always been able to target drones. The question was "Could they hit them?" Little light drones had few HP but we good at dodging fire. Big drones had lots of HP but were easier for NPCs to hit. But now that mechanic has gone out the window and NPCs hitting drones has become automatic. If they're in range, they hit. Drone signature radius has obviously been removed from all NPC calculations.


Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#142 - 2012-12-08 06:30:34 UTC
The trouble with your "solutions" CCP is EVE is a gear grinder and ISK is how we are competitive. Nerf income, you nerf a players ability to compete.
You shouldn't be nerfing income faucets. Any income faucets. You should be addressing the monopolies and bottlenecks that create ISK mountains.

No player in this game should be a trillionaire.

For those with tunnel vision, this is related to the drone nerf. The drone nerf was a PvE nerf, the same is the HML nerf was a PvE nerf, the opposite of the over powered Artillery never getting nerfed because Artillery for PvE are fail.

The problem is not that a level 4 mission runner makes too much ISK. It's that most of that ISK is being sent to other players who have no reason to take it out of the game. That's why ISK volumes rise. You know this though.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#143 - 2012-12-08 07:05:56 UTC
Aziesta wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"

Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay.
Honestly, if I can do it without drone hp or damage bonuses on my ship, I'll bet you can do it too. It might require some extra clicking and, god forbid, paying attention.


Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.

Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4.
Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#144 - 2012-12-08 07:33:30 UTC
This topic confirms that a good bulk of mission runners are just as terrible at adapting as miners.
Emeric Jadgoth
Southern Gold Salvage Operations
#145 - 2012-12-08 07:47:40 UTC
Zack Korth wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Tried that, it didn't work. When you've got 30+ rats on your screen and all of them decide to alpha your drones at once, the drones die. First salvo. The end. And that's exactly what happens, by the way.

As people have pointed out, Sleeper AI works in sleeper sights because you're only facing 5 or 6 ships at once (or so I'm told). But when you plug that same AI into 30+ ships at once it turns into the dysfunctional mess we have now.

What's really pathetic is that it's obvious that CCP removed things like "lock on time" from NPC ships, at least in regard to drones. You can deploy a flight of light drones - the smallest sig - and enemy battleships will be shooting at them in under a second. Have you ever tried to target a drone in a player ship? It takes forever. The tiny sigs come into play when we try to target drones. The NPCs? Not even part of the equation.

And because sig is no longer part of the equation the drones are now getting hit far more often than before. See, rats have always been able to target drones. The question was "Could they hit them?" Little light drones had few HP but we good at dodging fire. Big drones had lots of HP but were easier for NPCs to hit. But now that mechanic has gone out the window and NPCs hitting drones has become automatic. If they're in range, they hit. Drone signature radius has obviously been removed from all NPC calculations.


Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.


Then you're lucky. A lot of us are getting our drones killed before they can do any significant damage to circling frigates.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2012-12-08 08:03:20 UTC
Emeric Jadgoth wrote:

Then you're lucky. A lot of us are getting our drones killed before they can do any significant damage to circling frigates.


How? Are you just launching them and ignoring them untill they start to explode or something because that is the only way I can see this happening.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#147 - 2012-12-08 08:15:05 UTC
Zack Korth wrote:

Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.


"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are!

Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?!
I did!
The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them.
How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?!

Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones.
Cool stuff.

Whatever.
Terazul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2012-12-08 08:23:33 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.

Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4.
Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.

Even the first room of The Assault for Serpentis is basically impossible to do now. Between the constant dampening, the instant room aggro and the drone aggro that instantly pops whatever you throw at them, there's nothing you can do without an alt to draw fire.

I have to skip that room every time now. That's incredibly depressing.
Josef Djugashvilis
#149 - 2012-12-08 08:40:29 UTC
Have drone mission runners become the new 'miners' for the pixel hardmen to pick on?

This is not a signature.
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2012-12-08 08:43:38 UTC
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Mokanor Lenak
Odd Fluffy Bunnies
#151 - 2012-12-08 09:31:09 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:


It's not a "perfect counter measure", it's the only way to deal with the dampers.


Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#152 - 2012-12-08 09:35:08 UTC
Terazul wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.

Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4.
Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.

Even the first room of The Assault for Serpentis is basically impossible to do now. Between the constant dampening, the instant room aggro and the drone aggro that instantly pops whatever you throw at them, there's nothing you can do without an alt to draw fire.

I have to skip that room every time now. That's incredibly depressing.


I had just finished a large post explaining how to do this particular mission and ones like it when ISD fouled up the thread and I lost my entire post.

I tested like mad on Duality, and my posts are all over the AI dev log in the test server forum.

Anyway, here goes again:

This will work with an speed tanked Ishtar, likely a Rattler, and maybe a tanked Domi, but I can't guarantee that.
The new AI has something that CCP calls a "defect" .Their word, not mine. They are also anxious to close this defect, so this tactic won't work that long. Fox Four stated this in the dev blog about the AI. This tactic is discussed in that AI discussion thread.

1. Warp into a site.
2. Acquire all aggro in the room on your ship.
3. Release a flight of sentries, and keep them VERY CLOSE to your ship. You can also use a single T1 light drone as a sacrificial drone as well here.
4. Drones will be aggroed very quickly, you know this already.
5. Immediately recall the sentries as soon as they start taking damage.
6. Wait until all NPC's aggro your ship again.
7. Release your hobs, and hammer the close in frigs.
8. They should now be ignored by any NPC's in the spawn on the field with you when you released that 2nd flight.
9. Any additional spawns, repeat steps 2-8.

This works because of the "defect" where the AI only goes after the initial flight of drones, and you know how devastating that is. But it does allow drone users to survive, at least until CCP closes this loophole. Once they do that, it is lights out for all drones as a PvE platform.

Oh, and before anybody gets the idea of suggesting to an ISD that this is an "exploit", Fox Four herself discusses this in the features and testing threads, and CCP was aware of it, and released the code anyway.
And for the true zealots who want to shut anybody down who uses this tactic, CCP never took away the billions and billions people made with 3 day alts FW LP farming using a broken mechanic.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#153 - 2012-12-08 09:43:48 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Terazul wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.

Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4.
Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.

Even the first room of The Assault for Serpentis is basically impossible to do now. Between the constant dampening, the instant room aggro and the drone aggro that instantly pops whatever you throw at them, there's nothing you can do without an alt to draw fire.

I have to skip that room every time now. That's incredibly depressing.


I had just finished a large post explaining how to do this particular mission and ones like it when ISD fouled up the thread and I lost my entire post.

I tested like mad on Duality, and my posts are all over the AI dev log in the test server forum.

Anyway, here goes again:

This will work with an speed tanked Ishtar, likely a Rattler, and maybe a tanked Domi, but I can't guarantee that.
The new AI has something that CCP calls a "defect" .Their word, not mine. They are also anxious to close this defect, so this tactic won't work that long. Fox Four stated this in the dev blog about the AI. This tactic is discussed in that AI discussion thread.

1. Warp into a site.
2. Acquire all aggro in the room on your ship.
3. Release a flight of sentries, and keep them VERY CLOSE to your ship. You can also use a single T1 light drone as a sacrificial drone as well here.
4. Drones will be aggroed very quickly, you know this already.
5. Immediately recall the sentries as soon as they start taking damage.
6. Wait until all NPC's aggro your ship again.
7. Release your hobs, and hammer the close in frigs.
8. They should now be ignored by any NPC's in the spawn on the field with you when you released that 2nd flight.
9. Any additional spawns, repeat steps 2-8.

This works because of the "defect" where the AI only goes after the initial flight of drones, and you know how devastating that is. But it does allow drone users to survive, at least until CCP closes this loophole. Once they do that, it is lights out for all drones as a PvE platform.

Oh, and before anybody gets the idea of suggesting to an ISD that this is an "exploit", Fox Four herself discusses this in the features and testing threads, and CCP was aware of it, and released the code anyway.
And for the true zealots who want to shut anybody down who uses this tactic, CCP never took away the billions and billions people made with 3 day alts FW LP farming using a broken mechanic.


I read somewhere they fixed it already.
Or will fix this very soon.

Whatever.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#154 - 2012-12-08 10:02:44 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:


I read somewhere they fixed it already.
Or will fix this very soon.


I would not be surprised if they did.
I do know that I ran Angels Extravaganza 4 about 36 hours ago, and it worked then.
But yeah, there is no doubt that CCP is anxious to make missions even "more enjoyable" as soon as possible.

Last night I started doing Incursions again after about a 7 month stint away from them (I did not do any post nerf).
I expect that Incursion competition will get ramped up fast fast when this "fix" happens.

It will indeed be a wasteland again for low SP players, as their mission income will be hammered, and if Incursions start getting competitive again, there will be no room in them again except for the uber-skilled pilots.

The one good thing from this, from a purely selfish point of view, is I have a ton of LP with a couple stores that supply a number of in-demand PvP faction items. Those items will soar in value as there will be less people casing in LP to supply those items.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#155 - 2012-12-08 10:05:19 UTC
Mokanor Lenak wrote:


Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).


ECCM or a sensor backup array.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-12-08 10:08:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mokanor Lenak wrote:


Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).


ECCM or a sensor backup array.


Not to mention, again, the four new skills for countering ewar.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#157 - 2012-12-08 10:09:39 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Not to mention, again, the four new skills for countering ewar.


Knew I forgot to do something last night.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-12-08 10:13:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Not to mention, again, the four new skills for countering ewar.


Knew I forgot to do something last night.


I've got my Magnetometric on level 5, now, and the rest on level three. I fly mostly Gallente so the important one is handled.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jawas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-12-08 12:55:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mokanor Lenak wrote:


Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).


ECCM or a sensor backup array.

Great... Tell me, how many mid slots do you have on your ship? Armor tankers may benefit from this if they can do without cap boosters but shield tankers definitely need those mids.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-12-08 15:31:20 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Zack Korth wrote:

Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.


"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are!

Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?!
I did!
The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them.
How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?!

Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones.
Cool stuff.

Did something similar in my Rattler : dual painters. The problem is not gaining aggro - thats easy. Just keep drones indoors. The problem is holding aggro. I can find no combo of mods nor a magical attack pattern that will prevent total aggro onto the drones. NPC hate for drones is extreme and fanatical.

What are the solutions?
1) Smartbombs (that now get you flagged).
2) Use non-drone boats stupid! (that S P E L L S drone nerf).
3) Combos of EWAR and attack patterns that take out tacklers first (none of that works reliably or consistently for me - guess I suck at EvE).
5) HTFU : it could be a lot worse noob! (I suppose it could be worse. But a nerf is a nerf, nonetheless.)
6) And my personal favorite: drones work better in low sec cuz gate guns don't shoot at them, so come to low sec !! Drones don't work better in PvE encounters just because they are in low sec. Not for my lo sec ratting fit Gila; ditto for my low sec exploration fit Pilgrim.

My main ships: Navy Domi (RRs + sentry DPS), Rattler (Drones + torpedos DPS), Gila (low sec ratter), Pilgrim (lo sec exploration). Myrm (poor man's command ship + drone DPS). Mach (Incursions). With this list of ships plus the fact that I maxed drone skills, why should be happy about completely redesigning my personal fleet ??

I swear to you people, if NPCs could target and knock out guns and missile like they can drones, the gun/missile folks would be having seizures and would properly identify that as a major PvE nerf.