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PVE, Drones, The new AI and You

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Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#101 - 2012-12-06 02:45:55 UTC
Ok, so I ran a level 3 mission last night, to see what all of the complaining was about. I flew my Sleipnir (Command Ship) which could easily rip through lvl 4's (except for the Caldari mission that does the continuous loop of weapons disruption).

I quickly discovered a few things:

1. Kill as many frigates as I could, before deploying drones.

2. Then once there was only 1 or two frigates left, switch to killing cruisers, BCs.

3. Finally, send out the drones to kill off the last of the frigates.

I also learned that I might benefit from a fitting change:

Currently: 7 x 650 Artillery IIs; 1 x Drone Augmentor

New: 6 x 650mm Artillery IIs; 2 x Rocket Launcher IIs or 2 x Missile Launcher IIs

Then I will test this out. If it is effective, then I might drop one more 650 and pick up a tractor beam and dump combat drones and swap them for salvage drones.

This will put my Noctis out of business, but will save me the time in swapping ships.

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
starbelt stacy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-12-06 17:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: starbelt stacy
Haoibuni wrote:

Take the plunge and move to null sec.



what if people dont want to move / be forced to null sec?

oh hang on ...... ADAPT right? Roll
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-12-06 19:01:39 UTC
Kagumichan wrote:
Actually just thought of a way to make these things soloable even with the ewar. Get a ship with long range guns (Beams, Rails, Artillery etc.) and fit a microjumpdrive. When you enter a pocket, if you get scrammed, let out a drone or two to get the scram off you long enough to MJD 100+k away, then snipe everything.


Errrm, I seem to recall reading that the new AI can now engage multiple targets at the same time. That is, scram Target A, and shoot Target B. Anyone confirm? If true, to "shake the scram" you would have to deploy drones and send them far enough away to get out of range of scram as the frigs follow the drones. But yeah, in theory it's doable.
Alayna Le'line
#104 - 2012-12-06 19:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alayna Le'line
ashley Eoner wrote:
Alayna Le'line wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Alayna Le'line wrote:
In the very few L4 missions I've done so far in my Dominix drone aggro has barely been an issue. Then again I run missions ATK...

The only thing I've heard so far that could be problematic (but haven't experienced yet) is people getting full room aggro all the time, which could be slightly annoying (understatement) in missions with lots of NPCs. But this has been happening occasionally (for certain values of occasionally) on some missions since as long as I've been playing and so far I've managed to deal with it every time, I'm sure I'll be okay now as well.

Sure the new AI is slightly more annoying but I think I had to pull in my drones like 2 or 3 times extra during an Angel Extravaganza (my Garde IIs seem to tank Angel Battleships rather fine too, which is awesome). That said, if you don't use sentries you'd better be prepared to lose drones to frigs sooner rather than later as NPCs seem to focus fire a single drone (should be fun when there's loads of frigs...not).

Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sound like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...

Slightly unrelated: my Dominix gained a bit under 50 drone dps, yay \o/

On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... So you need to do slightly more effort in a predictable way...yawn?
According to CCP you're actually abusing a bug that results in the drones not gaining aggro like they are supposed to. That's probably why you're not having the problem others are having since we're not doing the exploit.


What you're not doing is reading feedback threads (though tbh it was buried in a load of crap in a stupidly long thread most of which got ignored anyway...). This "exploit" was left in by CCP on purpose, not using it is just making your own life harder for no reason at all.

Dev post.

At your link...
Quote:
While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution.

Defect aka BUG which when utilized is an EXPLOIT. Thank you come again.

The fix for this bug could be published in any future patch.


It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is, the fact that it was left in on purpose makes it not an exploit. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#105 - 2012-12-06 20:51:45 UTC
Alayna Le'line wrote:
otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit


I know at least 3 people that will quit at the end of their subscription. I'll have the stuff of 2 of them.
One of the guys have drone skills only as combat ones.

I even wonder why there is still no response from CCP on drones AI matter.

Whatever.
ashley Eoner
#106 - 2012-12-06 21:40:24 UTC
Alayna Le'line wrote:

It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is, the fact that it was left in on purpose makes it not an exploit. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes.
Yes it's a bug and when you exploit it you're exploiting a bug. It's sort of like when some goonswarm members got greedy and exploited the crap out of the FW rules and then got busted to hell. Eve's history is full of people exploiting game mechanics only to be busted by CCP ..
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#107 - 2012-12-06 21:43:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
It's true that in missions where there are not too many spawns, or not too many frigates, drones are still entirely manageable.

However, consider Buzz Kill. Before the patch, it was hard for drones: There are webbing assault frigates galore and scramming frigates, and there were always a few ships that didn't aggro you until you specifically started shooting them. If you forgot to, they'd wait for your drones to launch and then target those.

After the patch? It's a long series of small, triggered waves, including multiple waves of 4-5 assault frigates. Running it in a drone boat is going to be incredibly hard.

I'm not complaining, though. If there is going to be any variety in missions, and there should be, then some missions will be bad for some ship types. It's more important, IMO, to solve problems like the Tengu being great at just about everything.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Doddy
Excidium.
#108 - 2012-12-06 21:48:18 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me.


i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake.

Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo.


You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. Big smile


How does having to change to a lower dps (and thus isk) ship "make null ratting easier"?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#109 - 2012-12-06 22:22:57 UTC
Flew a few missions with a Rattlesnake (T2 sentry drones), Oracle and Huginn. Funnily enough when you are webbing and painting targets with a Huginn, the Huginn gets the aggro not the drones. And when you are blowing things up with a Mega Pulse II Oracle (rated at about 1000 DPS on paper), the Oracle gets the aggro (eventually, when the NPCs are bored of shooting the Huginn).

At one point the Rattlesnake was getting shot. I don't know why, might have to do with the Rattlesnake providing RR to the Huginn and Oracle.

So the oldest trick in the EVE play book still works: bring a friend. Try something new.

My typical mission fleet is two drone boats (Dominix, Gila, Rattlesnake, Apocalypse, etc) and a "forward observer". Sometimes it's a Tengu with two Fed Navy webs, other times it's a Huginn. This fleet still works fine.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-12-07 08:15:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Flew a few missions with a Rattlesnake (T2 sentry drones), Oracle and Huginn. Funnily enough when you are webbing and painting targets with a Huginn, the Huginn gets the aggro not the drones. And when you are blowing things up with a Mega Pulse II Oracle (rated at about 1000 DPS on paper), the Oracle gets the aggro (eventually, when the NPCs are bored of shooting the Huginn).

At one point the Rattlesnake was getting shot. I don't know why, might have to do with the Rattlesnake providing RR to the Huginn and Oracle.

So the oldest trick in the EVE play book still works: bring a friend. Try something new.

My typical mission fleet is two drone boats (Dominix, Gila, Rattlesnake, Apocalypse, etc) and a "forward observer". Sometimes it's a Tengu with two Fed Navy webs, other times it's a Huginn. This fleet still works fine.


You have to agree this will complicate missions for a lot of new players.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Mokanor Lenak
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-12-07 09:03:24 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Flew a few missions with a Rattlesnake (T2 sentry drones), Oracle and Huginn. Funnily enough when you are webbing and painting targets with a Huginn, the Huginn gets the aggro not the drones. And when you are blowing things up with a Mega Pulse II Oracle (rated at about 1000 DPS on paper), the Oracle gets the aggro (eventually, when the NPCs are bored of shooting the Huginn).

At one point the Rattlesnake was getting shot. I don't know why, might have to do with the Rattlesnake providing RR to the Huginn and Oracle.

So the oldest trick in the EVE play book still works: bring a friend. Try something new.

My typical mission fleet is two drone boats (Dominix, Gila, Rattlesnake, Apocalypse, etc) and a "forward observer". Sometimes it's a Tengu with two Fed Navy webs, other times it's a Huginn. This fleet still works fine.


You have to agree this will complicate missions for a lot of new players.


And not everyone wants to have to multi-box, or leeching on friends just to get a mission done.
Trdina Rasputin
Man-dingo
#112 - 2012-12-07 11:25:45 UTC
HydroSan wrote:
Gallente can't rat or do missions anymore. Who thought this was a good change?



Talk for your self. i don't have problems.
Xenos van Omega
The nasty Nomads
#113 - 2012-12-07 11:51:17 UTC
Kagumichan wrote:
The drone tactic saved my Rokh earlier.

Doing The Assault, level 4, Serpentis... upon warping in the entire room aggroed immediately (that's about 30 frigates, 30 battlecruisers and 10 battleships), 6 sensor dampeners dropped my locking range down to 18k and then the dampers flew around me at 30k, whilst two frigs came in and warp scrambled me. The moment I let out the drones to blow up the scramblers everything, except the scrambling frigs, shot the drones and started popping them. That left me with two options:

1. Sit there and die
2. Drop all my drones and pray to the almighty God of pure luck that either my drones could take the scramble frigs off before they all blew up, or that the scrambling frigs would switch targets.

By pure luck, option 2 happened just as my hull was buckling, and my brave Warrior II's stayed behind and sacrificed themselves whilst I, now looking like a giant flaming fireball, went to go and pay a 9 million isk repair bill, having been completely unable to kill or even lock onto a target in that mission.


Blitz: The gate is not locked, go straight to Pocket 2 and 3

dont kill anything in room 1 and 2, just go gate to next
Kagumichan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2012-12-07 12:11:33 UTC
Xenos van Omega wrote:
Blitz: The gate is not locked, go straight to Pocket 2 and 3

dont kill anything in room 1 and 2, just go gate to next


And miss out on all that loot, salvage and bounty? Hell no! :P
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-12-07 12:55:07 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Xearal wrote:
OR.. you could you know.. adapt..


As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game?


Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for.

actually you need (for PVE):
- Caldary Strategy Cruiser to 1
- 4-5 subsystems to 4
- T2 heavy missiles (it's like 10 days)
Total: 15 days or about

And it will be enough for PVE while you training those "needed lvl5s"

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2012-12-07 12:58:37 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Xearal wrote:
OR.. you could you know.. adapt..


As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game?


Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for.

actually you need (for PVE):
- Caldary Strategy Cruiser to 1
- 4-5 subsystems to 4
- T2 heavy missiles (it's like 10 days)
Total: 15 days or about

And it will be enough for PVE while you training those "needed lvl5s"

You forgot cruiser V so make that 15 + 30 = 45 days.

(That is still not much.)

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#117 - 2012-12-07 13:41:48 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me.


i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake.

Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo.


You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. Big smile


How does having to change to a lower dps (and thus isk) ship "make null ratting easier"?


Answer, it doesn't, but darn it Doddy, you shouldn't try to come between him and his prejudice of both null sec and people who actually to time to VOTE for CSM through the clicking of a couple of mouse buttons.....which must be too much effort for the majority of high sec people......
Mokanor Lenak
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-12-07 19:00:37 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:

You forgot cruiser V so make that 15 + 30 = 45 days.

(That is still not much.)


From zero, a fit like this:
Quote:

[Tengu, Assist]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gistum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist B-Type EM Ward Field
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


(Which is a bit expensive, but a decent one, can be changed for less or more tank, specific or omni for TP or not, whatever you want).
This takes about 80 days without remap, and without any skilling in missile support skills or anything in the 4-5 subsystems.

A player who does not fly caldari from the start, will take him a good time to get this up and running.
Just saying.
Castor Narcissus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-12-07 19:50:44 UTC
Here an email for a 2 month offer for the new expansion! Oh btw we just made using your drone boat a pain in the ass. Enjoy.

At least ccp got my 20 euros.
Celestra Doxaila
MinTek Tactical Division
#120 - 2012-12-07 20:26:14 UTC
The new Algos and Dragoon are almost like a counter to the new drone-eating AI. The big 25% bonus makes the drones so fast that most of the frigates are dead before they can get a shot off. And as OP says, if you see a drone take a slice of damage, hit recall and light drones go from 50km out to in your drone bay in a few seconds.

Light drones seem to fly even faster than light missiles for taking out frigates at range.

Take out the NPC frigates first can you can run missions just like you always have.