These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1241 - 2012-11-29 03:00:32 UTC
Why do outlaws get suspect timers? It's somewhat redundant.

(also the drone/FOF targeting sentry guns thing is still broken)
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1242 - 2012-11-29 10:52:54 UTC
It's not really redundant. We've removed the penalties for assisting an outlaw outside of PVP combat. (On TQ it would give you a GCC right now). But if the outlaw does something bad (and so gets a Suspect flag), only at that point does anyone assisting him also get a penalty (inheriting the Suspect flag)

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Naes Mlahrend
Devil's Horsemen
#1243 - 2012-11-29 15:55:50 UTC
Don't have the time to read 64 pages and sorry if I missed this but can someone explain how this will affect nullsec? Do we get stopped from using gates when engaged in PVP? Do the flags pertain to nullsec? Maybe I didn't read the devblog well enough.
Thanks!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1244 - 2012-11-29 16:08:56 UTC
Naes Mlahrend wrote:
Don't have the time to read 64 pages and sorry if I missed this but can someone explain how this will affect nullsec? Do we get stopped from using gates when engaged in PVP? Do the flags pertain to nullsec? Maybe I didn't read the devblog well enough.
Thanks!


These are the important parts for fellow nullsec pilots:

1.) Weapons timers (earned by shooting people, etc) prevent you from docking, jumping through a gate, or switching ships until the timer runs out. They are 60 seconds, and when your ship dies your POD will start off with whatever weapons timer your ship had.

2.) Logi's inherit aggression. If logi's rep a target that is currently shooting someone, they will gain their Weapons timer, which will prevent them from docking or jumping through the gate.

3.) The PvP timer prevents your ship from despawning until it runs out (it's a 15 minute timer). The most important change, is you can be given a PvP timer after you log out, even if you didn't have a PvP timer prior to logging out. This is huge.... Don't scram your buddy to prevent his ewarp... cause if he doesn't log back in, you just stuck him on a gate for 15 minutes.....

4.) The NPC timer is 5 minutes long, and you get it anytime you shoot an NPC or an NPC shoots you. The NPC timer prevents your ship from despawning until it runs out, and since ships can now be given a PvP timer after they log off, logging off is a very bad idea when trying to avoid a timer.

5.) There is now a safe log off feature. It requires you to have NO timers, and then you must decloak and turn off all your mods to start it. Once started, your ship will despawn in 30 seconds, unless someone attacks you or you cancel it....
Naes Mlahrend
Devil's Horsemen
#1245 - 2012-11-29 16:40:41 UTC
Ok. That's kind of what I was afraid of. I've always liked the gun and run/ no rules portion of nullsec. 60 seconds isn't a real long time but long enough to make a pod escape more difficult. I can see this being beneficial for defense fleets but not when being the aggressors. Guess you pick your battles and I better get proficient with d-scan.
Chris Starfire
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1246 - 2012-11-30 23:05:23 UTC
Can anyone tell me if the ability to buy your sec status back is coming into effect in this expansion? I have looked everywhere and have not found anything on it.
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#1247 - 2012-12-01 16:26:27 UTC
Starfire: I'd say that's your answer right there. I've never heard about it at all.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Angelica Scatterbrain
WH United
#1248 - 2012-12-01 16:59:49 UTC
In efffect, Tuesdays patch will eliminate most high sec pvp except factional warfare and war decs. Is this CCPs intention?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1249 - 2012-12-01 18:37:53 UTC
Angelica Scatterbrain wrote:
In efffect, Tuesdays patch will eliminate most high sec pvp except factional warfare and war decs. Is this CCPs intention?


1.) Suicide ganking and Suspect *** Baiting will also be major forms of highsec PvP....

2.) I certain CCP's intention is to NOT eliminate alternative forms of highsec PvP....
Angelica Scatterbrain
WH United
#1250 - 2012-12-01 19:04:20 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Angelica Scatterbrain wrote:
In efffect, Tuesdays patch will eliminate most high sec pvp except factional warfare and war decs. Is this CCPs intention?


1.) Suicide ganking and Suspect *** Baiting will also be major forms of highsec PvP....

2.) I certain CCP's intention is to NOT eliminate alternative forms of highsec PvP....



1.Suicide ganking will not be worth it as your loot scooper is instantly a target to everybody. There will be no suspect baiting as no one wants to instantly be a target for everybody.

2. Alternative forms of highsec PvP eliminated.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1251 - 2012-12-01 20:46:03 UTC
Angelica Scatterbrain wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Angelica Scatterbrain wrote:
In efffect, Tuesdays patch will eliminate most high sec pvp except factional warfare and war decs. Is this CCPs intention?


1.) Suicide ganking and Suspect *** Baiting will also be major forms of highsec PvP....

2.) I certain CCP's intention is to NOT eliminate alternative forms of highsec PvP....



1.Suicide ganking will not be worth it as your loot scooper is instantly a target to everybody. There will be no suspect baiting as no one wants to instantly be a target for everybody.

2. Alternative forms of highsec PvP eliminated.


lol..... You can't possibly be serious.... So what if the loot scooper is a target.... you really think that can't be handled? Not only can you tank / stab your loot scoopers, but you can bypass the whole aggression issue with an alt in a noobship....

And "oh no, more people can shoot me" does not mean everyone under the sun will... and you can further use the universal flag to bait and gank even more targets....

I'm VERY confident that highsec PvP will be just as healthy and viable as it is now, if not more so.... to be frank, it's a simple case of adapt or die... and it's very easy to adapt to these changes...

Angelica Scatterbrain
WH United
#1252 - 2012-12-01 20:53:13 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Not only can you tank / stab your loot scoopers,





How many stabs can you fit on your freighter, I don't seem to have that skill.
Despicable Rogue
#1253 - 2012-12-02 16:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Despicable Rogue
CCP Masterplan wrote:


(snip)

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

____
So, if Pilot A attacks Pilot B in high security space, thereby becoming a "Criminal" (and "LE" with respect to Pilot B) and a legal target for previously neutral Pilot C, and Pilot C repairs Pilot B, suddenly Pilot C would be "Suspect" and a legal target for attack by any and all players in the Eve Universe (not just Pilot A).

However, if Pilot C were instead to attack Pilot A directly, then repair Pilot B, he would only acquire an LE flag on behalf of Pilot A (and a PVP flag) and neither "Criminal" nor "Suspect" flags in any respect?

CCP, please confirm that this is not the intention and is not what will be implemented.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1254 - 2012-12-02 18:52:10 UTC
Despicable Rogue wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:


(snip)

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

____
So, if Pilot A attacks Pilot B in high security space, thereby becoming a "Criminal" (and "LE" with respect to Pilot B) and a legal target for previously neutral Pilot C, and Pilot C repairs Pilot B, suddenly Pilot C would be "Suspect" and a legal target for attack by any and all players in the Eve Universe (not just Pilot A).

However, if Pilot C were instead to attack Pilot A directly, then repair Pilot B, he would only acquire an LE flag on behalf of Pilot A (and a PVP flag) and neither "Criminal" nor "Suspect" flags in any respect?

CCP, please confirm that this is not the intention and is not what will be implemented.


I don't believe you have that down right.... Using the comments given by CCP MasterPlan. The most relevant:

Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

If Pilot A attacks Pilot B in highsec... they become criminal flagged and legal for everyone to shoot.
A Limited engagement is created only if Pilot B shoots back. Lets pretend Pilot B shoots back....

Now, if you are neutral pilot C, and wish to rep Pilot B.... There are two ways you can do it...

Option 1: Just rep pilot B. Since Pilot B has a PvP Flag AND assuming Pilot A cannot legally shoot you, you would gain a suspect flag, making you a free target for everyone....

Option 2: If you shoot/aggress Pilot A first (who is a legal target because they are criminally flagged), then Pilot A can legally shoot you. Because Pilot A can legally shoot you, you can now rep Pilot B without gaining a Suspect Flag....

Despicable Rogue
#1255 - 2012-12-02 19:56:08 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Despicable Rogue wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:


(snip)

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

____
So, if Pilot A attacks Pilot B in high security space, thereby becoming a "Criminal" (and "LE" with respect to Pilot B) and a legal target for previously neutral Pilot C, and Pilot C repairs Pilot B, suddenly Pilot C would be "Suspect" and a legal target for attack by any and all players in the Eve Universe (not just Pilot A).

However, if Pilot C were instead to attack Pilot A directly, then repair Pilot B, he would only acquire an LE flag on behalf of Pilot A (and a PVP flag) and neither "Criminal" nor "Suspect" flags in any respect?

CCP, please confirm that this is not the intention and is not what will be implemented.


I don't believe you have that down right.... Using the comments given by CCP MasterPlan. The most relevant:

Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

If Pilot A attacks Pilot B in highsec... they become criminal flagged and legal for everyone to shoot.
A Limited engagement is created only if Pilot B shoots back. Lets pretend Pilot B shoots back....

Now, if you are neutral pilot C, and wish to rep Pilot B.... There are two ways you can do it...

Option 1: Just rep pilot B. Since Pilot B has a PvP Flag AND assuming Pilot A cannot legally shoot you, you would gain a suspect flag, making you a free target for everyone....

Option 2: If you shoot/aggress Pilot A first (who is a legal target because they are criminally flagged), then Pilot A can legally shoot you. Because Pilot A can legally shoot you, you can now rep Pilot B without gaining a Suspect Flag....



Thanks for confirming my understanding of CCP Masterplan's post.

Instead, I suggest that if Pilot A attacks B, after which neutral C reps B, then C should just acquire the flags that B had. Thus, if B had attacked A in return then PVP, Weapons, and LE flags would pass on to C who could then be attacked by A.

It seems quite unreasonable that C should be treated like a global target ("Suspect") for defending a victim ("B") by repping the victim whereas he would not be a global target if he shot weapons at "A" who is already a global target for attacking "B."
Aron Fox
Tranquillian Imperial Navy
#1256 - 2012-12-04 06:31:52 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:


Quote:
We're still tweaking the contents of these charts, so not all decisions are finalized. If there's a case that you think isn't covered, then please let us know about in the comments section. Hopefully the fact that we can actually explain much of the new system in this way shows how improved things are compared to the old system with all of its special-cases and exceptions.


I think the charts are missing what happend if you assist a person in war, what flags do you get and the same for faction warfare.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1257 - 2012-12-04 07:03:08 UTC
Aron Fox wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:


Quote:
We're still tweaking the contents of these charts, so not all decisions are finalized. If there's a case that you think isn't covered, then please let us know about in the comments section. Hopefully the fact that we can actually explain much of the new system in this way shows how improved things are compared to the old system with all of its special-cases and exceptions.


I think the charts are missing what happend if you assist a person in war, what flags do you get and the same for faction warfare.


This has been covered in the comments....

CCP Masterplan wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

1) Using Safe-Logoff (dev blog coming shortly with more details) should let you get your ship out of space quicker than disconnecting, AND let you keep an eye on dscan for incoming probes/attackers in case you need to get to another (safer) spot

2) This has been modified: Assisting a non-corpmate with a PVP flag who is at war will get you a Suspect flag

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.


Essentially, if you are a neutral party and assist in a Player vs Player fight, you become a suspect....
Aron Fox
Tranquillian Imperial Navy
#1258 - 2012-12-04 07:11:10 UTC
Despicable Rogue wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Despicable Rogue wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:


(snip)

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

____
So, if Pilot A attacks Pilot B in high security space, thereby becoming a "Criminal" (and "LE" with respect to Pilot B) and a legal target for previously neutral Pilot C, and Pilot C repairs Pilot B, suddenly Pilot C would be "Suspect" and a legal target for attack by any and all players in the Eve Universe (not just Pilot A).

However, if Pilot C were instead to attack Pilot A directly, then repair Pilot B, he would only acquire an LE flag on behalf of Pilot A (and a PVP flag) and neither "Criminal" nor "Suspect" flags in any respect?

CCP, please confirm that this is not the intention and is not what will be implemented.


I don't believe you have that down right.... Using the comments given by CCP MasterPlan. The most relevant:

Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

If Pilot A attacks Pilot B in highsec... they become criminal flagged and legal for everyone to shoot.
A Limited engagement is created only if Pilot B shoots back. Lets pretend Pilot B shoots back....

Now, if you are neutral pilot C, and wish to rep Pilot B.... There are two ways you can do it...

Option 1: Just rep pilot B. Since Pilot B has a PvP Flag AND assuming Pilot A cannot legally shoot you, you would gain a suspect flag, making you a free target for everyone....

Option 2: If you shoot/aggress Pilot A first (who is a legal target because they are criminally flagged), then Pilot A can legally shoot you. Because Pilot A can legally shoot you, you can now rep Pilot B without gaining a Suspect Flag....



Thanks for confirming my understanding of CCP Masterplan's post.

Instead, I suggest that if Pilot A attacks B, after which neutral C reps B, then C should just acquire the flags that B had. Thus, if B had attacked A in return then PVP, Weapons, and LE flags would pass on to C who could then be attacked by A.

It seems quite unreasonable that C should be treated like a global target ("Suspect") for defending a victim ("B") by repping the victim whereas he would not be a global target if he shot weapons at "A" who is already a global target for attacking "B."



I agree with Despicable Rogue. speaking storylinewise, why would CONCORD wanna make a logistic pilot (C) that is helping a pilot (A) attacking a criminal/suspect/outlaw (B) a suspect? What realistic reason would there be for CONCORD to not sanction such a action?

I understand that if a neutral is repping a pilot in war that is interfering and that could deserve a suspect flag or a neutral repariing a faction target that that deserves a suspect tag as they are interfering. but why would the New Edens mighty law-enforcement declear a logistic pilot repping a law-abiding capsuleer assisting in a act legal by the CONCORD directives be considerd illegal?

They allow us pod pilots to excercise law to the extend of killing criminals of the empires but to help these heroes of law is a crime? why dont CONCORD make it illegal to even attack the criminals and make themself get the rights exclucivly?
Aron Fox
Tranquillian Imperial Navy
#1259 - 2012-12-04 07:13:40 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Essentially, if you are a neutral party and assist in a Player vs Player fight, you become a suspect....


thanks for the info!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1260 - 2012-12-04 07:48:11 UTC
Aron Fox wrote:
Despicable Rogue wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Despicable Rogue wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:


(snip)

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

____
So, if Pilot A attacks Pilot B in high security space, thereby becoming a "Criminal" (and "LE" with respect to Pilot B) and a legal target for previously neutral Pilot C, and Pilot C repairs Pilot B, suddenly Pilot C would be "Suspect" and a legal target for attack by any and all players in the Eve Universe (not just Pilot A).

However, if Pilot C were instead to attack Pilot A directly, then repair Pilot B, he would only acquire an LE flag on behalf of Pilot A (and a PVP flag) and neither "Criminal" nor "Suspect" flags in any respect?

CCP, please confirm that this is not the intention and is not what will be implemented.


I don't believe you have that down right.... Using the comments given by CCP MasterPlan. The most relevant:

Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

If Pilot A attacks Pilot B in highsec... they become criminal flagged and legal for everyone to shoot.
A Limited engagement is created only if Pilot B shoots back. Lets pretend Pilot B shoots back....

Now, if you are neutral pilot C, and wish to rep Pilot B.... There are two ways you can do it...

Option 1: Just rep pilot B. Since Pilot B has a PvP Flag AND assuming Pilot A cannot legally shoot you, you would gain a suspect flag, making you a free target for everyone....

Option 2: If you shoot/aggress Pilot A first (who is a legal target because they are criminally flagged), then Pilot A can legally shoot you. Because Pilot A can legally shoot you, you can now rep Pilot B without gaining a Suspect Flag....



Thanks for confirming my understanding of CCP Masterplan's post.

Instead, I suggest that if Pilot A attacks B, after which neutral C reps B, then C should just acquire the flags that B had. Thus, if B had attacked A in return then PVP, Weapons, and LE flags would pass on to C who could then be attacked by A.

It seems quite unreasonable that C should be treated like a global target ("Suspect") for defending a victim ("B") by repping the victim whereas he would not be a global target if he shot weapons at "A" who is already a global target for attacking "B."



I agree with Despicable Rogue. speaking storylinewise, why would CONCORD wanna make a logistic pilot (C) that is helping a pilot (A) attacking a criminal/suspect/outlaw (B) a suspect? What realistic reason would there be for CONCORD to not sanction such a action?

I understand that if a neutral is repping a pilot in war that is interfering and that could deserve a suspect flag or a neutral repariing a faction target that that deserves a suspect tag as they are interfering. but why would the New Edens mighty law-enforcement declear a logistic pilot repping a law-abiding capsuleer assisting in a act legal by the CONCORD directives be considerd illegal?

They allow us pod pilots to excercise law to the extend of killing criminals of the empires but to help these heroes of law is a crime? why dont CONCORD make it illegal to even attack the criminals and make themself get the rights exclucivly?


Two things to keep in mind....

If LE's were transferred, we would end up with the chaining of aggression flags we have now... and CCP is changing crime watch SPECIFICALLY to eliminate said chains. This simplifies the system immensely.

While storyline wise it makes some sense for concord to want you to assist Pilot A who is attacking Suspect / Criminal / Outlaw... mechanic wise this would create a major issue. Essentially, the criminal / outlaw / suspect would NOT have rights to shoot your logistics ship, which is a very game-breaking situation. As such, it makes complete sense that you get flagged a suspect (making you a fee target for everyone) unless you declare to the ciminal / outlaw / suspect that you're joining the fight against him. To declare such a thing, it simply requires you to aggress the criminal before you repair the vigilante. This is fair and balanced...

To give a real world example, this is sort of like a plain-clothed police officer pulling out his badge before drawing a gun and joining in apprehending criminals. If they don't, the other officers on the scene could easily mistake them for a criminal. And while I realize there is a difference between repping an ally and shooting an opponent, from a gameplay perspective both actions significantly alter the outcome of the fight against the "opponent", and both scenarios NEED to make you a legal target for the Criminal / Suspect / etc..