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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#501 - 2012-11-14 12:11:08 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull.
I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.

Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus.

Railguns *love* tracking bonus. In fact, I'd prefer a tracking bonus than a range bonus.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#502 - 2012-11-14 12:31:09 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sog Ardun wrote:
The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull.
I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.

Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus.

Railguns *love* tracking bonus. In fact, I'd prefer a tracking bonus than a range bonus.



Its two unbonused guns.. enjoy your extra 3 dps from the tracking bonus.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#503 - 2012-11-14 13:02:19 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Its two unbonused guns.. enjoy your extra 3 dps from the tracking bonus.

Hum, I forgot the only two turret thing.

Though, when orbiting at range, I found tracking to be a lot more useful than dps with the Atron, and the dps is poor anyway at this range, so unless you want blasters, you are better with tracking IMO.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#504 - 2012-11-15 01:36:12 UTC
What the Tristan needs more of is tank. It's slow and it only has two turrets, so increasing turret damage doesn't make any sense. It's not going to be a very good kiter because again, it's slow. It needs something other than DPS to back that up, in my opinion. What would suit it well would be a fourth low slot and some more grid. Sometimes drone ships having one less slot than everything else works. Here, not so much. Further, it's not like a dronegank Tristan is going to be super OP, because it's going to have probably no tank, it won't be the fastest by any margin meaning it may have difficulty kiting, and you can kill drones.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#505 - 2012-11-15 02:31:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Its two unbonused guns.. enjoy your extra 3 dps from the tracking bonus.

Hum, I forgot the only two turret thing.

Though, when orbiting at range, I found tracking to be a lot more useful than dps with the Atron, and the dps is poor anyway at this range, so unless you want blasters, you are better with tracking IMO.



....... You don't orbit with railguns unless you really ******* have too.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2012-11-15 11:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sog Ardun
Aglais wrote:
What would suit it well would be a fourth low slot and some more grid. Sometimes drone ships having one less slot than everything else works. Here, not so much.


Except that the Tristan is not missing a mid or low slot but a turret/high slot (which is perfectly fine).

The Tormentor is 3/3/4 but the Punisher is 4/2/4.
The Merlin is 3/4/3 and the Kestrel is 4/4/2.
Finally, the Rifter is 4/3/3 and the Breacher 3/4/3.
Since the Incursus is 3/3/4 the Tristan was supposed to be 4/3/3.

You should stop comparing the Tristan with the Incursus. The design is much closer to a Rifter honestly. Both of them have 3 mids, 3 lows with nearly the same PG/CPU (the Rifter do have a PG advantage because AC are so efficient on that end).
Last I heard, nobody was complaining that the Rifter needed a tanking bonus though ...

The tristan is about the same ... just not as fast or with the ridiculous signature radius ... but it compensates with the damage projection of the drones and a longer targeting range(minmatars are supposed to be faster anyway).

Maybe it could be a bit faster but the tanking bonus is not needed.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#507 - 2012-11-15 19:34:17 UTC
Just compare the new Tristan to a Rifter and you will see that it is totally viable.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#508 - 2012-11-15 19:58:29 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
Just compare the new Tristan to a Rifter and you will see that it is totally viable.



So.. If you compare it to a really ****** ship.. It seems alright? Dear god...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#509 - 2012-11-16 02:29:12 UTC
Tell me if I'm wrong but basically you would like the new Tristan to be like the navy Comet.

A fast brawler with 4 low slots and not too dependant on his drones (even if they are not negligeable) fo his damage output.

Too bad this ship already exists :)
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#510 - 2012-11-16 03:31:17 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
Tell me if I'm wrong but basically you would like the new Tristan to be like the navy Comet.

A fast brawler with 4 low slots and not too dependant on his drones (even if they are not negligeable) fo his damage output.

Too bad this ship already exists :)



Highlighted and bolded the important part to stress the fact. A full flight of 5 drones on a frigate is nothing to laugh at. Although they do not get a ship damage bonus, with full skills they are still doing a +135% damage base, without factoring in a DDA if any. And with 25% tracking speed bonus, those drones will not be getting out flown by zippy little ships as much.

By way of comparison, that is the same amount of drones the new Amarr destroyer gets (it does get a drone damage bonus though) and only 1 less low slot atm. Twisted

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#511 - 2012-11-16 03:44:58 UTC
Actually, I was talking about the 3 drones used by the Comet.

People have said (with some good reasons) that drone damage is not really reliable and that is why they would rather have a more balanced damage output (so like the Comet or the Ishkur but I did not want to bring that one just yet ^^).

The new tristan is neither of them and I guess it is not supposed to do the same things.

It is clearly a droneboat IMO (others are brawlers with drones) which has its upside (like the pure DPS potential) and downside (well drones are drones ...). That is why I'm excited to fly this new frigate even if I'm sure it will only be effective in niche roles.

That said, I'm still not convinced with the turret tracking bonus and the fitting could be made a bit easier.
I just think the Gallente has enough frigate brawlers (with or without drones) and I'm against adding a bonus that would make it one.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#512 - 2012-11-16 04:35:43 UTC
I know how you feel Sog.

With Amarr soon to have yet 2 more drone boats (dessie and Prophecy), and drones in the state that they currently are, its a risky proposition. They have plans to overhaul drones AI, and UI, ... but they have not given a date, and I am guessing it is at least a year down the road.

All that being said, I have always been a pet whore, and I will definitely have a few of these in my hangar.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#513 - 2012-11-16 11:15:05 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
Actually, I was talking about the 3 drones used by the Comet.

People have said (with some good reasons) that drone damage is not really reliable and that is why they would rather have a more balanced damage output (so like the Comet or the Ishkur but I did not want to bring that one just yet ^^).

The new tristan is neither of them and I guess it is not supposed to do the same things.

It is clearly a droneboat IMO (others are brawlers with drones) which has its upside (like the pure DPS potential) and downside (well drones are drones ...). That is why I'm excited to fly this new frigate even if I'm sure it will only be effective in niche roles.

That said, I'm still not convinced with the turret tracking bonus and the fitting could be made a bit easier.
I just think the Gallente has enough frigate brawlers (with or without drones) and I'm against adding a bonus that would make it one.



Can't it be a droneboat AND not have a bad tank?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Lavitakus Bromier
WTF Bunnies
#514 - 2012-11-16 18:12:43 UTC
+1 drones lack alpha. sad really poor little guys do all they can.but it's never.enough
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#515 - 2012-11-23 09:55:57 UTC
Anyone else of the opinion that the Rifter should be a arty platform, since the Breacher has taken the brawler role, and that the Slasher is just a better version of what the Rifter was.

I just want the Rifter to have a niche advantage again, even if a niche disadvantage is part of the deal Cry
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#516 - 2012-11-23 10:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
Rick Rymes wrote:
Anyone else of the opinion that the Rifter should be a arty platform, since the Breacher has taken the brawler role, and that the Slasher is just a better version of what the Rifter was.

I just want the Rifter to have a niche advantage again, even if a niche disadvantage is part of the deal Cry


I like this idea...changing tracking bonus to optimal(or even better....falloff) bonus would work nicely.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#517 - 2012-11-23 11:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rick Rymes
Deerin wrote:

I like this idea...changing tracking bonus to optimal(or even better....falloff) bonus would work nicely.


Would have to be falloff, maybe even a more pg and a 4th turret but lets not trip ourselves. im glad im understood Lol
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2012-11-23 13:59:14 UTC
To be honest, tracking is more of an arty bonus than AC.
Falloff is definatly more of an upgrade to AC than arty.
Optimal is the only clear way to make it a better arty without making it possibly too good as a brawler.

That said, I don't consider the Breacher to have taken the brawler role. IMO it can do both with 3 low slot and a bonus to damage. Sure the 35 km optimal range means you can't snipe with missiles but you can still kite pretty well.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#519 - 2012-11-23 14:20:15 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
To be honest, tracking is more of an arty bonus than AC.
Falloff is definatly more of an upgrade to AC than arty.
Optimal is the only clear way to make it a better arty without making it possibly too good as a brawler.

That said, I don't consider the Breacher to have taken the brawler role. IMO it can do both with 3 low slot and a bonus to damage. Sure the 35 km optimal range means you can't snipe with missiles but you can still kite pretty well.


It can brawl with rockets and two warrior 2's, gets about 110 dps and can tank like a beast with dual MASB, and its fast.

My thinking with the Rifter is to model it on the Stabber, and since its tank is weak compared to the majority of its fellow combat frigs, a falloff bonus and an extra turret could tip the odds back a bit, hell i would accept a nurf to EHP for a bit of variety.

Also it should be able to use AC and Arty, just like the Merlin can go blaster or rail.

The best thing is it can go arty atm, its just tight on fittings and low dps, so if they shifted the balance to long range and away from brawling maybe it will get a more specific following, and the Incursus pilots can keep the close range domination going Blink

P.S so glad no one posted the "OMG RIFETR NO GOOD SO WINMITAR WHINE RAGE!!!!!!!" that crops up now and then.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#520 - 2012-11-23 19:03:25 UTC
It is true that the rifter needs some love. Its a free kill for any frig out there.

The slasher is better at scram kiting/sig tanking. The breacher will be a ten times better brawler than the rifter is.


Yea i can see the rifter as an arty platform being pretty cool, i like arties.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish