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[Winter] New destroyers

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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1061 - 2012-11-19 02:11:59 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
I tried the Dragoon on Buckingham this weekend and actually got good results against a variety of targets. I was able to kill an active tank Hawk though it had a vamp fitted and even got good results against a Thorax (=still dying but only after considerable time, might have killed him, if I had focused his drones down).
Furthermore I was easily able to kill a kiting Talwar with just small drones. They look weird when they zap to the target, stop to fire a shot and then zap again, but they still work pretty reliably.


The thing with Buckingham is though that I had to discard a lot of fights because the opponents were either terribly fitted or unreasonably fitted (as in flying Cambions and officer fits).
So I urge everyone in this thread to go to Buckingham and try these ships out, the more results we can get, the better.



Truly appreciate the feedback Sheynan. Keep it coming please! I can not log on atm, (frustrating to say the least, but I simply do not have the bandwidth currently while on the road), so any and all of this actual hands on feedback is incredibly helpful. Lol

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1062 - 2012-11-19 02:38:34 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
I tried the Dragoon on Buckingham this weekend and actually got good results against a variety of targets. I was able to kill an active tank Hawk though it had a vamp fitted and even got good results against a Thorax (=still dying but only after considerable time, might have killed him, if I had focused his drones down).
Furthermore I was easily able to kill a kiting Talwar with just small drones. They look weird when they zap to the target, stop to fire a shot and then zap again, but they still work pretty reliably.


The thing with Buckingham is though that I had to discard a lot of fights because the opponents were either terribly fitted or unreasonably fitted (as in flying Cambions and officer fits).
So I urge everyone in this thread to go to Buckingham and try these ships out, the more results we can get, the better.


So the drones work good against MWDing ships then? Cause that was/is the problem with drones right? Overshooting, stopping, catching up. Does the MWD speed increase of the drones help make up for how drones work currently?

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1063 - 2012-11-19 02:43:29 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Sheynan wrote:
I tried the Dragoon on Buckingham this weekend and actually got good results against a variety of targets. I was able to kill an active tank Hawk though it had a vamp fitted and even got good results against a Thorax (=still dying but only after considerable time, might have killed him, if I had focused his drones down).
Furthermore I was easily able to kill a kiting Talwar with just small drones. They look weird when they zap to the target, stop to fire a shot and then zap again, but they still work pretty reliably.


The thing with Buckingham is though that I had to discard a lot of fights because the opponents were either terribly fitted or unreasonably fitted (as in flying Cambions and officer fits).
So I urge everyone in this thread to go to Buckingham and try these ships out, the more results we can get, the better.


So the drones work good against MWDing ships then? Cause that was/is the problem with drones right? Overshooting, stopping, catching up. Does the MWD speed increase of the drones help make up for how drones work currently?


The Talwar must have been really ****... it should eat drones.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#1064 - 2012-11-19 20:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Sheynan wrote:
I tried the Dragoon on Buckingham this weekend and actually got good results against a variety of targets. I was able to kill an active tank Hawk though it had a vamp fitted and even got good results against a Thorax (=still dying but only after considerable time, might have killed him, if I had focused his drones down).
Furthermore I was easily able to kill a kiting Talwar with just small drones. They look weird when they zap to the target, stop to fire a shot and then zap again, but they still work pretty reliably.


The thing with Buckingham is though that I had to discard a lot of fights because the opponents were either terribly fitted or unreasonably fitted (as in flying Cambions and officer fits).
So I urge everyone in this thread to go to Buckingham and try these ships out, the more results we can get, the better.


So the drones work good against MWDing ships then? Cause that was/is the problem with drones right? Overshooting, stopping, catching up. Does the MWD speed increase of the drones help make up for how drones work currently?


The Talwar must have been really ****... it should eat drones.


I thought the same so I tested again.
This time I was flying a kiting Talwar (DC as only defense, nano'd with BCU, point, painter, 2k m/s). In tests against Algea (Blink)(hobgoblins, ion blasters) I was not able to one-volley the drones, probably due to the drone hp bonus. 2 volleys per drone however took too much time and the hobgoblins destroyed me before I was able to kill them off, bare in mind that my opponent was constantly relaunching new drones.
That is not to say that it would generally be hopeless to engage drone destroyers in a kiting ship, if you manage to one-volley the drones (due to a specialized fitting/sophisticated target painter/ t2 ammo usage/ opponent with low skills/ Corax role bonus) you might stand a reasonable chance.

I think the MWD bonus, combined with the drone hp bonus and the spare flights actually give drone destroyers the edge in a kiting scenario without being too powerful, atleast in situations similar to the tested one.
I was not able to test drones against frigates, but given that warriors are 50% faster than hobgoblins I am hopeful that the drone destroyers will also be able to engage frigates flying 3-4k m/s. Of course, you might run into faster frigates, but missiles and turrets have similar difficulties hitting those.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1065 - 2012-11-19 20:47:41 UTC
Have you been able to try it out against gun boats? (like the regular dessies) And have you had the opportunity to try it out against other brawlers yet (other than the Thorax)?

Great feedback so far, much appreciated.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1066 - 2012-11-22 11:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
New update:

We've taken another polish pass on these ships based partially on feedback we've been getting from the Buckingham test server, and decided to free up a bit of fittings for these little guys. The fittings were extremely tight which was especially painful for newer players without perfect fitting skills, and anyone who chooses to use lasers on the Dragoon (not that we think lasers will be the most popular option, but it really should be possible to fit gatling pulses with a light tank).

Changes are:

Corax
48 PWG (+3)

Talwar
51 PWG (+3)

Dragoon
58 PWG (+3)

Algos
160 CPU (+10)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#1067 - 2012-11-22 14:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Nice! So, basically you've come to a useless conclusion based on predefined factors in near quantifiable engagements.

You know! Encapsulated in an emulated environment that does NOT factor in the unquantifiable (meta); which is in fact the larger contributing aspect to gameplay and player engagements.

Well, Congratulations!

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Alaster Burleson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1068 - 2012-11-22 14:33:07 UTC
The Amarr destroyer is designed to take down opposition through indirect means. On the downside, the damage is nothing to write home about, but the combination of energy disruption ability plus drone control makes it dangerous at shutting enemy frigates off, then finishing them properly when they're helpless. It also has quite a generous drone bay, for multiple drone replacements. ~(This setup makes this class of destroyers un-tackle-able. Wow CCP, could you make a more unfair, ridiculous flying newb cannon? It defeats the purpose and motto behind EVE)~

Ship bonuses:
+10% to drone damage and hitpoint per level
+20% bonus to energy vampire and energy neutralizer transfer range per level
Role bonus:
+25% to ship capacitor recharge rate
Slot layout: 6 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 55 PWG, 150 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 750 / 950 / 850
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 600 / 370s / 1.62s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 2.75 / 1700000 / 4.71s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 39km / 525 / 6
Sensor strength: 10 radar
Signature radius: 66
Cargo capacity: 300

^^ From a game dev's point of view, that is just an unfair advantage from the get go. The stats that CCP has given this class of ships for Amarr already renders more then half of the ships in this game useless and makes this class of ships a very big threat. Frigates will be useless against this as the energy neutralizer will render any kind of scrambling/point or web modules useless in a matter of seconds or at the max a minute, so using a frigate against this would be redundant. So if a frigate was able to warp scramble or point this and web it, just neut this and within a short period, bam warp away, that simple and just down right ridiculous and unfair.

The next thing on the list is the amount of damage that they have given the drones. You think that the percentage given to the neut/vamp mods were enough, nope, they decided to throw in a +10% drone damage and hitpoint per level, yes you read that right per level. I mean really? +10% per level? so if you got up to level five for drones for this class of destroyers (Amarr) that is 50% damage that is done to the opposing enemy just in drone damage alone. Come on CCP, that is just ridiculous and you should know better.

That is just giving newbs the upper hand from the get go and just saying "hey, even though this is a game that takes a while to learn, here is a ship that you can go for and just dominate in no time!!" There is no reason to add this much damage capabilities to one particular class of ships for one faction. I thought this new update was to "balance" out the ships. If this is your interpretation of "balancing" ,CCP, then you need to re-look at the stats of the other destroyer classes under the other factions. You are completely, not completely, you are utterly robbing the other factions under the destroyer classes.

I'm not even going to touch the +25% cap recharge rate, as that alone is completely and utterly uncalled for and just makes this entire class of destroyers for Amarr a total newb cannon. I also find it funny, one of the main points that got me hooked to this game is that every decision you make in this game will change the outcome not just from a fight, but it will also affect other aspects of the game. Well, this ship alone just destroys that aspect of the game. What is the point of even emphasizing such a delicate and very tough area, if you are going to basically throw a class of ships that is going to dominate that hard? You might as well throw this game into the pit of "pick up and go games" bin, not the "this game takes time and effort to perfect" bin. That is all i have to say about that and i'm sure whoever reads this gets my point that I making and will see the entire disadvantage that CCP has presented by "newbing" this class of destroyers for Amarr.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1069 - 2012-11-22 15:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Sorry, read the post above and had to comment...

point 1: this ship is NOT impossible to tackle, just difficult. it suffers from several distinct weaknesses as an amarrian hull. most notably it only has 2 mids removing the possibility of a web making holding opposing frigates at range particulrly difficult and in turn meaning you have little waysto ensure that your opponent doesn't simply... leave. remember, its amarrian so probably not the fastest ship on the block.

point 2: while it has a neuting bonus; its a range bonus. inaddition this ship only uses small neuts. so double neut range on a small neut? 12km, JUST at the edge of tackle range. there is also the fact that adding neuts removes some of this "unfair" dps you're talking about and you'll need at least a pair to effectively deploy them against targets in reasonable time frames.

point 3: the dragoon is out dps'ed by both the gallente destroyers by a fairly significant margin. its dps is in the 300-400 range on a "high dps" fit which is quite soundly thrashed by the 500+ dps catalyst and algus destroyers.

point 4: this ship is NOT noob friendly to fly. while it certainly does use drones which are relatively speaking "easy" to train a player will have to have a significant understanding of cap management and the skills to make use of said neuts. assuming you avoid the neuts you suffer from a split weapon system, not only will you have to train Drones for the majority of your dps you'll ALSO need gunnery and missile skills and all the supports those entail. the old merlin says hello.

point 5: this ship is a DESTROYER. its only reason to exist is to screw over OTHER destroyers and most importantly, FRIGATES. I suggest you go and have a try at soloing a rupture or thorax in a thrasher, lemmie know how easy it is against someone with a clue :>

please, think before you post. the EFT stats for these new destroyers and indeed all of the current retribution changes are available on the forums, you don't have to speculate about what these ships can do on paper, YOU CAN CHECK and not stamp your feet like a three year old for not understanding the implications of a new ship design. hell, go on the relevent test server and you can actually fly these things to boot.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#1070 - 2012-11-22 15:34:53 UTC
LOL

guess what destroyers are meant for

killing frigs

"wah wah, this destroyer is too good of a counter to my frigates"

like just straight up lol
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1071 - 2012-11-22 15:43:06 UTC
Even as a hardcore amarr pilot, I can say that this ship is gonna have ISSUES. Sure it'll do a great job of neuting out prop mods and active defenses and shutting off lasers and hybrid guns. But you gotta get within 12 KM to do that. And it's nigh impossible to run a full rack of neuts and have a tank. And have cap left over.

I'll be using this in faction warfare, but for a normal roaming gang...... I'm not sure it has much of a place.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Alaster Burleson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1072 - 2012-11-22 17:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaster Burleson
Ares Desideratus wrote:
LOL

guess what destroyers are meant for

killing frigs

"wah wah, this destroyer is too good of a counter to my frigates"

like just straight up lol


I'm not whining, im replying to the post from a game developers point of view and if you can't handle that, then don't insult me as being a child. I love the fact how you are assuming that I don't know how use frigates, that alone makes you look stupid and a fool.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1073 - 2012-11-22 17:09:11 UTC
It does seem as Amarr is beginning to come up with the motto "I can't do it alone". Being so short on mids (in particular for their destroyers), they don't really have a way to keep others in the engagement.

The Coercer partially makes up for this by having explosive DPS right out of the gate, and great optimal, which makes it a great do-or-die ship, and a solid pick for DPS role in small gangs and up.

The Dragoon partially makes up for this by having the ability to field a partial rack of small neuts, keeping all but the most commited at bay. This means it may not be able to tackle, but it is hard to tackle and hold in return. I would point out however, that it gets a RANGE bonus to its neuts, not a TRANSFER amount bonus, so on small neuts it isn't like it will drain everything in a moment's time, and on other Dessies and *gulp* cruisers, the Dragoon's tank would probably not hold out long enough for the neuts to do their job. Putting unbonused weapons on it will help the dps some, but not by overly much.

When they finally update drone AI and UI, hopefully full-pledged drone ships other than the curse / pilgrim, will be viable very respected pvp ships. Until then I think that other than for the faithful die hard drone bunnies like myself and some others, most of the dedicated drone boats will fill niche roles, but not be nearly as popular as the gunboats and (more recently) missile boats.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1074 - 2012-11-22 17:28:13 UTC
Alaster Burleson wrote:

I'm not whining, im replying to the post from a game developers point of view and if you can't handle that, then don't insult me as being a child. I love the fact how you are assuming that I don't know how use frigates, that alone makes you look stupid and a fool.



Everyone's opinions are appreciated (ignore trolls that just insult and don't contribute, you are just feeding them by responding), and they will differ from person to person. However, saying you are a game developer does not give your opinion any more weight than a mathematician, a rocket scientist, or a bicycle messenger in this game P. Some people are great at theoretical and EFT warrioring, some are good at just knowing "this does not work in application" but can not always explain why (I tend to fall in the second category). But they contribute just as much, and their views have just as much weight.

I disagree with your opinion on the Dragoon (I actually argued that I feared it would be under powered in application, since I could not get a hands on test. It appears I may have been wrong, and I hope that is the case), for the reasons listed above.

I do invite you if possible to get on to Test and give it a hands on try however. All of the in game feedback that can be given will be very helpful to final tweaks before this goes live.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Alaster Burleson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1075 - 2012-11-22 17:49:09 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Alaster Burleson wrote:

I'm not whining, im replying to the post from a game developers point of view and if you can't handle that, then don't insult me as being a child. I love the fact how you are assuming that I don't know how use frigates, that alone makes you look stupid and a fool.



Everyone's opinions are appreciated (ignore trolls that just insult and don't contribute, you are just feeding them by responding), and they will differ from person to person. However, saying you are a game developer does not give your opinion any more weight than a mathematician, a rocket scientist, or a bicycle messenger in this game P. Some people are great at theoretical and EFT warrioring, some are good at just knowing "this does not work in application" but can not always explain why (I tend to fall in the second category). But they contribute just as much, and their views have just as much weight.

I disagree with your opinion on the Dragoon (I actually argued that I feared it would be under powered in application, since I could not get a hands on test. It appears I may have been wrong, and I hope that is the case), for the reasons listed above.

I do invite you if possible to get on to Test and give it a hands on try however. All of the in game feedback that can be given will be very helpful to final tweaks before this goes live.

~Z


Thank you for kind feedback :). I don't expect my opinion to have any more weight then a rocket scientist or mathmatician. I only say that because I myself have gone through the wonderful trials and errors of releasing games to the public and finding a happy medium, but if you bring a ship with those kind of stats into a game that thrives on customization and delicate profession, it will be abused and that is what I am afraid of. I'm tired of playing games that fall into that pit and once it happens, players begin to expect more of that and then they become whiney and then the company folds and brings more of that type of ship out and makes the game easy. That is all I'm trying to say :)
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1076 - 2012-11-22 23:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Heribeck Weathers
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update:

We've taken another polish pass on these ships based partially on feedback we've been getting from the Buckingham test server, and decided to free up a bit of fittings for these little guys. The fittings were extremely tight which was especially painful for newer players without perfect fitting skills, and anyone who chooses to use lasers on the Dragoon (not that we think lasers will be the most popular option, but it really should be possible to fit gatling pulses with a light tank).

Changes are:

Corax
48 PWG (+3)

Talwar
51 PWG (+3)

Dragoon
58 PWG (+3)

Algos
160 CPU (+10)


CCP Fozzie saves CCP Yitts abandon thread yay!
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#1077 - 2012-11-23 04:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Alaster Burleson wrote:
I'm not whining, im replying to the post from a game developers point of view and if you can't handle that, then don't insult me as being a child. I love the fact how you are assuming that I don't know how use frigates, that alone makes you look stupid and a fool.

I'm not assuming anything of that sort, I also never insulted you "as being a child" whatever that means.

But you're saying that new Amarr dessie will be some O/P killing machine and that's just complete hype from my way of looking at it

As far as that Amarr dessie goes, the way I see it is it is meant to kill frigates and with it's current configuration it should do that very very well

Edit: Although it will still be out-classed by the expensive specialized frigates like the Vengeance or Hawk. It seems pretty well-rounded to me but we'll see
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1078 - 2012-11-23 05:43:51 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
[quote=Alaster Burleson]Edit: Although it will still be out-classed by the expensive specialized frigates like the Vengeance or Hawk. It seems pretty well-rounded to me but we'll see
Or anything that moves fast and kills drones well?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1079 - 2012-11-23 11:19:02 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update:

We've taken another polish pass on these ships based partially on feedback we've been getting from the Buckingham test server, and decided to free up a bit of fittings for these little guys. The fittings were extremely tight which was especially painful for newer players without perfect fitting skills, and anyone who chooses to use lasers on the Dragoon (not that we think lasers will be the most popular option, but it really should be possible to fit gatling pulses with a light tank).

Changes are:

Corax
48 PWG (+3)

Talwar
51 PWG (+3)

Dragoon
58 PWG (+3)

Algos
160 CPU (+10)


CCP Fozzie saves CCP Yitts abandon thread yay!


I asked Fozzie to have a look at the new destroyers based on the feedback we've read from it. Had little time to do it myself, and figured Fozzinator would be more efficient at it P
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#1080 - 2012-11-23 14:01:35 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
[quote=Alaster Burleson]Edit: Although it will still be out-classed by the expensive specialized frigates like the Vengeance or Hawk. It seems pretty well-rounded to me but we'll see
Or anything that moves fast and kills drones well?

And it has to be able to deal with heavy capacitor warfare (we're talking about 3 energy neuts here) and the secondary weapons system, either turrets or launchers.

There's plenty of fast **** that could kill it, but they're all expensive faction or T2 frigates and lots of them will die horribly to it; it might lose to some 100 million ISK frigates, but that doesn't matter you see. The same way it doesn't matter for the current destroyers. It's because of Destroyers' low cost and high performance.

The Amarr dessie is gonna be an efficient killing machine