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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#481 - 2012-11-22 02:40:27 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Oh look CCP made a new learning skill, that everyone has to train.

Yeah a new learning skill, just like Signature Analysis is a learning skill, etc. Roll

I guess people are upset only cause they kinda got used to current skills - should the game had these eccm skills from the start, hardly anyone would have argued.

I like new skills - they give us something to train other than supercaps/industry. And let's face it, introduction of new skills is inevitable if CCP plans to retain its older playerbase.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#482 - 2012-11-22 03:08:51 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Oh look CCP made a new learning skill, that everyone has to train.

Yeah a new learning skill, just like Signature Analysis is a learning skill, etc. Roll

I guess people are upset only cause they kinda got used to current skills - should the game had these eccm skills from the start, hardly anyone would have argued.

I like new skills - they give us something to train other than supercaps/industry. And let's face it, introduction of new skills is inevitable if CCP plans to retain its older playerbase.


Not all of us have 100M Sp.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#483 - 2012-11-22 03:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Michael Harari wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Oh look CCP made a new learning skill, that everyone has to train.

Yeah a new learning skill, just like Signature Analysis is a learning skill, etc. Roll

I guess people are upset only cause they kinda got used to current skills - should the game had these eccm skills from the start, hardly anyone would have argued.

I like new skills - they give us something to train other than supercaps/industry. And let's face it, introduction of new skills is inevitable if CCP plans to retain its older playerbase.


Not all of us have 100M Sp.

And I don't a have Titan - yet I don't ask CCP to remove titans from the game. My only concern is about making them balanced. And those saying new skills are imbalanced and complaining about someone having 5% better sensor strength are overacting. That's a marginal advantage by any standard! Now compare that with an ability to gain free killmails via portal.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#484 - 2012-11-22 05:02:44 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Oh look CCP made a new learning skill, that everyone has to train.

Yeah a new learning skill, just like Signature Analysis is a learning skill, etc. Roll

I guess people are upset only cause they kinda got used to current skills - should the game had these eccm skills from the start, hardly anyone would have argued.

I like new skills - they give us something to train other than supercaps/industry. And let's face it, introduction of new skills is inevitable if CCP plans to retain its older playerbase.


Not all of us have 100M Sp.

And I don't a have Titan - yet I don't ask CCP to remove titans from the game. My only concern is about making them balanced. And those saying new skills are imbalanced and complaining about someone having 5% better sensor strength are overacting. That's a marginal advantage by any standard! Now compare that with an ability to gain free killmails via portal.


Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#485 - 2012-11-22 11:35:42 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.


Well this is an excellent post to go right before my next announcement. Big smile

We agree that the rank of the new Sensor Comp skills is a bit excessive and have decided to lower it down. However 5% per level at a rank 2 was a bit too powerful in this case so we're also reducing the effect to 4% per level.

The end result is a better bang for your hour spent training, but a slightly lower potential end result.

So the skills are now Rank 2 Int/Mem, providing 4% increased sensor strength in their chosen sensor type per level.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#486 - 2012-11-22 13:02:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.


Well this is an excellent post to go right before my next announcement. Big smile

We agree that the rank of the new Sensor Comp skills is a bit excessive and have decided to lower it down. However 5% per level at a rank 2 was a bit too powerful in this case so we're also reducing the effect to 4% per level.

The end result is a better bang for your hour spent training, but a slightly lower potential end result.

So the skills are now Rank 2 Int/Mem, providing 4% increased sensor strength in their chosen sensor type per level.

Skill book was never seeded on Buckingham in 6-c. Will using the skill book be testable before it hits TQ?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#487 - 2012-11-22 13:13:47 UTC
These skills are like a reintroduction of the learning skills in my opinion. Add nothing and practically required to train.
You can opt out of training them but only if you enjoy being permajammed always. So I'll have to train it on all my chars instead of training something fun.
My verdict : A really odd and bad approach to nerfing ECM. Ugh
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#488 - 2012-11-22 13:18:35 UTC
Salpun wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.


Well this is an excellent post to go right before my next announcement. Big smile

We agree that the rank of the new Sensor Comp skills is a bit excessive and have decided to lower it down. However 5% per level at a rank 2 was a bit too powerful in this case so we're also reducing the effect to 4% per level.

The end result is a better bang for your hour spent training, but a slightly lower potential end result.

So the skills are now Rank 2 Int/Mem, providing 4% increased sensor strength in their chosen sensor type per level.

Skill book was never seeded on Buckingham in 6-c. Will using the skill book be testable before it hits TQ?


CCP Habakuk has put them up in 6-C now because he's awesome.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#489 - 2012-11-22 14:01:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.


Well this is an excellent post to go right before my next announcement. Big smile

We agree that the rank of the new Sensor Comp skills is a bit excessive and have decided to lower it down. However 5% per level at a rank 2 was a bit too powerful in this case so we're also reducing the effect to 4% per level.

The end result is a better bang for your hour spent training, but a slightly lower potential end result.

So the skills are now Rank 2 Int/Mem, providing 4% increased sensor strength in their chosen sensor type per level.



I still don't understand why we have the skillbook at all. Shouldn't you just raise the sensor strengths of all ships or lower the strength of ECM mods? There is a time commitment there, but I don't really see why there has to be. It just seems like a time sink unless you have some other things planned down the road using these skills? Modules, etc.

These are sincere questions...

Where I am.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#490 - 2012-11-22 14:09:08 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


I still don't understand why we have the skillbook at all. Shouldn't you just raise the sensor strengths of all ships or lower the strength of ECM mods? There is a time commitment there, but I don't really see why there has to be. It just seems like a time sink unless you have some other things planned down the road using these skills? Modules, etc.

These are sincere questions...


Sensor strength skills lead to greater variability of players' ships' sensor strengths, leading to less predictable ECM dynamics, relative to a uniform change. Increasing variability and decreasing predictability to this extent is a good thing.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#491 - 2012-11-22 14:15:09 UTC
For god's sake put it back to 5% and make the rank 3.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#492 - 2012-11-22 14:56:29 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Sensor strength skills lead to greater variability of players' ships' sensor strengths, leading to less predictable ECM dynamics, relative to a uniform change. Increasing variability and decreasing predictability to this extent is a good thing.


They could have done that by just nerfing ECM mods themselves.
It is a bad mechanic to train something to make other people worse at what they do.
It is a good mechanic to train something to make yourself better.
This is just gimping all the new players as every non-moronic vet will train this immediately after dec 4 so there will not be any unpredictability at all.
Don't hate on the new players. It is bad marketing.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#493 - 2012-11-22 15:08:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.


Well this is an excellent post to go right before my next announcement. Big smile

We agree that the rank of the new Sensor Comp skills is a bit excessive and have decided to lower it down. However 5% per level at a rank 2 was a bit too powerful in this case so we're also reducing the effect to 4% per level.

The end result is a better bang for your hour spent training, but a slightly lower potential end result.

So the skills are now Rank 2 Int/Mem, providing 4% increased sensor strength in their chosen sensor type per level.


How about 2%/level as a rank one, and then an advanced version 3%/level as a rank 2? This gives you 1.1*1.15=1.26, very close to the original 25%, but allowing noobs to train something (and feel good about having it Ved), and allowing people with a billion skill points (and people who hate being jammed) to spend a bit more time on it.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#494 - 2012-11-22 15:33:28 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Add nothing and practically required to train.

Don't you see an inconsistancy here ?

If it add nothing, it cannot be required to train. If it's required to train, it add very valuable thing.

BTW, if this skill were so required, people would fit ECCM more often, and the module would be like a second DCU.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#495 - 2012-11-22 15:35:43 UTC
This is almost exactly like learning skills. You don't have to train it, but you are at a disadvantage if you don't, so you should train it.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#496 - 2012-11-22 16:02:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Add nothing and practically required to train.

Don't you see an inconsistancy here ?


Louis deGuerre wrote:
It is a bad mechanic to train something to make other people worse at what they do.
It is a good mechanic to train something to make yourself better.


Nope
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#497 - 2012-11-22 16:04:18 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
How about 2%/level as a rank one, and then an advanced version 3%/level as a rank 2? This gives you 1.1*1.15=1.26, very close to the original 25%, but allowing noobs to train something (and feel good about having it Ved), and allowing people with a billion skill points (and people who hate being jammed) to spend a bit more time on it.


That's even worse ! Learning skills AND advanced learning skills ! Sad
Man, so much deja vu right now Lol
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#498 - 2012-11-22 16:07:48 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
How about 2%/level as a rank one, and then an advanced version 3%/level as a rank 2? This gives you 1.1*1.15=1.26, very close to the original 25%, but allowing noobs to train something (and feel good about having it Ved), and allowing people with a billion skill points (and people who hate being jammed) to spend a bit more time on it.


That's even worse ! Learning skills AND advanced learning skills ! Sad
Man, so much deja vu right now Lol


How is it worse? Its the exact same thing we have currently (rank 3 for 25% total)?
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#499 - 2012-11-22 16:10:14 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
How is it worse? Its the exact same thing we have currently (rank 3 for 25% total)?


I was joking. I was just thinking 'name them learning skills and be done with it already' Lol
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#500 - 2012-11-22 16:20:46 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Sensor strength skills lead to greater variability of players' ships' sensor strengths, leading to less predictable ECM dynamics, relative to a uniform change. Increasing variability and decreasing predictability to this extent is a good thing.


Not really. It'll just add more to the "mandatory PvP skills" list, which is already too long.

I mean, given how jamming works, do you think there will be serious PvPers out there who will NOT train that? The only people who wouldn't have it will be noobs. So all these skills will do is drive another wedge into an already wide hole between new players and the vets, further discouraging new players from joining the game.

I'm sorry, but this is learning skills all over again. Really not a smart decision. I'm sorry, I mean no offense to whoever came up with it, but this is NOT the way to go. Give it some more thought.

Further, if you're going to introduce skills to specifically counter ECM, something that modules already exist for, why stop there? Why not add skills to counter missiles, even though there's already a module that does that? Or skills that counter drones? Like a "Drone Defense Screen" that reduces drone damage taken by 5% per level? See how absurd that is? So why is it OK to do this with ECM, instead of dealing with ECM modules directly?

Silly, CCP. Just plain silly. Do it, if you feel you must, but it'll go down about as well as learning skills went.