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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2012-11-24 06:28:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The changes dont' make ECM pilots more effective against your current PvP ships. Instead, they make them less effective.

So even if you could currently handle ECM on the field, you're not going to take any advantage to make their ECM less effective? I mean if you don't train the skill you are still as effective on the battlefield as now. If you do train it, your force becomes that much more effective against theirs, making training that skill almost mandatory.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#522 - 2012-11-24 10:34:45 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The changes dont' make ECM pilots more effective against your current PvP ships. Instead, they make them less effective.

So even if you could currently handle ECM on the field, you're not going to take any advantage to make their ECM less effective? I mean if you don't train the skill you are still as effective on the battlefield as now. If you do train it, your force becomes that much more effective against theirs, making training that skill almost mandatory.


So, to bring 4x Rank 2 skills to Level 4 will take less than four days... and to take them all to L3 will take less than half a day. They are not needed now, and they won't be an absolute need in the future... they are a "good to have" and nothing more....
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#523 - 2012-11-24 13:07:07 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The changes dont' make ECM pilots more effective against your current PvP ships. Instead, they make them less effective.

So even if you could currently handle ECM on the field, you're not going to take any advantage to make their ECM less effective? I mean if you don't train the skill you are still as effective on the battlefield as now. If you do train it, your force becomes that much more effective against theirs, making training that skill almost mandatory.

So, if they are mandatory, they are not useless (quite the contrary). And if they are useful, they are worth the time training them ?

How do you consider advanced weapon upgrade skill ? And weapon upgrade ? And energy grid upgrade ? And all these fitting skills ? Because they have exactly the same effect you are describing : if you don't train them, you're screwed because you will be unable to fit what you need...

Welcome to EVE, a game with skills. And in fact, most of the time, you are not screwed if you lack certain skills, you only need to work around. That's why there is fitting mods, meta mod with lower fitting requirement, and ECCM.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2012-11-24 13:57:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The changes dont' make ECM pilots more effective against your current PvP ships. Instead, they make them less effective.

So even if you could currently handle ECM on the field, you're not going to take any advantage to make their ECM less effective? I mean if you don't train the skill you are still as effective on the battlefield as now. If you do train it, your force becomes that much more effective against theirs, making training that skill almost mandatory.

So, if they are mandatory, they are not useless (quite the contrary). And if they are useful, they are worth the time training them ?

How do you consider advanced weapon upgrade skill ? And weapon upgrade ? And energy grid upgrade ? And all these fitting skills ? Because they have exactly the same effect you are describing : if you don't train them, you're screwed because you will be unable to fit what you need...

Welcome to EVE, a game with skills. And in fact, most of the time, you are not screwed if you lack certain skills, you only need to work around. That's why there is fitting mods, meta mod with lower fitting requirement, and ECCM.

All the other skills provide a useful benefit. This skill doesn't, unless you happen to be hit with ECM, and even then it only influences the die roll on whether you can continue fighting for twenty seconds or if you are a useless hunk of space metal floating in space for twenty seconds. Since nobody plays this game to be a floating piece of space metal in combat, you will train this skill. Like I've said before, that takes this skill out of the "nice to have," and puts it into "I don't want to be jammed out of the fight forever, so I must train it."

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Lili Lu
#525 - 2012-11-24 17:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
All the other skills provide a useful benefit. This skill doesn't, unless you happen to be hit with ECM, and even then it only influences the die roll on whether you can continue fighting for twenty seconds or if you are a useless hunk of space metal floating in space for twenty seconds. Since nobody plays this game to be a floating piece of space metal in combat, you will train this skill. Like I've said before, that takes this skill out of the "nice to have," and puts it into "I don't want to be jammed out of the fight forever, so I must train it."


No analogy is ever perfect. However, analogizing these skills to the existing anti-ewar skills is much better that the totally flawed assertion that these skills are akin to the old learning skills. It may be with some eventual ecm rework that these skills will have some non-ewar resistant benefit other that the odd and weak anti-scanability benefit of a higher sensor strength.

As for them being mandatory they are not. You are transporting a comparative scenario between gang mates abilities to resist enemy jams into an alleged absolute. But we are already starting from a baseline where noone has this added resistance to ecm. Those ecm ships have to pick your ship out of the crowd for selective treatment with ecm for your pre or post new skill sensor strength to matter. These skills are always going to be optional as long as they have a very limited effect on another game mechanic besides ecm. That many, or even most, players will want some level of training in them does not make them mandatory. Unless you want to call every other skill that provides you a benfit to ship performance mandatory.

I may have misjudged your motivation in my previous post. I figured you for another ecm boat whiner. Now you sound more to me like someone wishing they would have directly nerfed ecm modules. The problem with this is that the nerf would be uniform and uniformly subject to much ecm boat centered outrage. This indirect nerf to ecm strength is variable. I suspect most people will train it to 4. Some newer players will train it to 3 for a period of time before going for 4. And of course people like logistic pilots will very likely train it to 5.

Also, the burden of the nerf falls on the ecm targets. Unlike a nerf directly to ecm strength, which would be bourne solely by ecm pilots, this burden falls on the entire player base. We all have to choose how much time burden we want to invest in this new benefit against ecm. It is actually a very good way to nerf something in game that has always been too powerful and detestful. It results in a mix of percentages of nerf to the strength of ecm up to maximum. To have simply translated that maximum value to a direct nerf on ecm strength was bound to create the same outcry of the past two attempts to solve the fun killing ecm mechanic.

ECM should have a place in the game. ECM and Damps are the two ewars (well along with neuting) that can combat the benefits of logistics. The problem with ecm comes in it totally disabling a ship for 20 seconds and often continuously which is a long time in a pvp clash. So much of this game requires the ability to obtain a lock. And having nothing you can do to break the effect once it hits is fun killing. If you are range damped you have the option to move closer to a target if you can. Once jammed you sit twidling your thumbs unless you are able and decide to just leave the battle.

These skills are the most benign way to nerf ecm. It sounds like they are working on a another radical rework of the mechanic. Hopefully it will be one where a victim has some possible path to adjusting to the effect. Until then, a skill (or set of skills) one can place one's own estimation of value for investment is a good method to reduce the perceived prevalence of thumb in ass uselessness on the eve battlefield. And it is certainly not the reintroduction of the learning skills.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#526 - 2012-11-24 17:39:37 UTC
Yea, it will be "optional" to train this skill on a combat character, like it is "optional" to train mining on a mining character, or production efficiency on an industrialist.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Demolishar
United Aggression
#527 - 2012-11-24 19:59:53 UTC
I can't believe they introduced that skill called "Navigation", everyone has to train it, you're at a disadvantage if you don't have that extra 5% ship speed and it's completely unfair.

It's the same with "Gunnery", the RoF bonus is just an unfair time sink for new players to catch up.

And there's so many more...

REMOVE ALL SKILLS FROM EVE!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#528 - 2012-11-25 01:50:19 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Yea, it will be "optional" to train this skill on a combat character, like it is "optional" to train mining on a mining character, or production efficiency on an industrialist.


that was absurd, the mining skill is to miners what the gunnery skill is to combat pilots.

the eccm skill is just like armour compensation skills, scan res and targeting range skills, thermodynamics skill etc. not a complete necessity for new starters, but something u should eventually train to be more competitive

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#529 - 2012-11-25 12:48:44 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Yea, it will be "optional" to train this skill on a combat character, like it is "optional" to train mining on a mining character, or production efficiency on an industrialist.

It's not even close to this. Training navigation 5 could be seen as a mandatory skill, but an ECCM skill, no. It's exactly like EM armor compensation : very useful skill, though only useful when you face EM hiting ennemy, and your armor is already pretty resistant to this.

This ECCM skill will be very useful if you face an ECM ship, though that won't change your life : either your ship is already pretty resistant to ECM and that will make this resistance better, or it's not (frigate, minmatar cruisers), and you still need implants or ECCM to be reliably resistant to ECM.

And anyway, it's not even close from hull upgrades or mechanic skills for example.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#530 - 2012-11-25 16:09:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Good point about the afterburner skill, although take a look at it on Buckingham you'll be pleasantly surprised.


You cant trick me into logging in that easily.


lol

Skill is changing to offer -5% to Afterburner Duration per level and -10% Activcation Cost per level.


Dear CCP Fozzie,

In relation to the above Afterburner skill change, will the Fuel Conservation skill remain unchanged (leading to Afterburners having the same Cap use as now)?

Regards,
Sparks


Yeah we're not touching Fuel Conservation atm.


I hope you're going to be paying careful attention to the math there. Fuel Conservation is also a 10% reduction in activation cost per level. If it works like other skills affecting base module stats you might end up with ABs that have no cost at all. P

Copypasta'd and slightly tweaked from a post of mine on another forum:

Quote:
If we assume CCP applies a stacking penalty of sorts to the AB and Fuel Conservation skills where one skill uses the modified value of the module as its base value, rather than just adding one bonus to the other and then applying that to the module's base value, then yes, the cap use will end up the same with both AB and FC skills at Level 5. If they don't, we might end up with afterburners that use zero cap per cycle, because Fuel Conservation already gives a 50% reduction in AB cap use per cycle at level 5.

Assuming both skills at level 4, and an AB with a 10 second base cycle duration and 10GJ/cycle cap use (and the math suggested above):
- Current skills: (10GJ * 60%) / (10s * 140%) = 6GJ/14s = 3/7 GJ/s.
- Proposed changes: ((10GJ * 60%) * 60%) / (10s * 80%) = 3.6/8s = .45 GJ/s

Both skills at 5:
- Current: (10GJ * 50%) / (10s * 150%) = 5GJ/15s = 1/3 GJ/s
- Proposed: ((10GJ * 50%) * 50%) / (10s * 75%) = 2.5GJ/7.5s = 1/3 GJ/s

So it'll be no effective change in cap use over time if both skills are at 5 and they use that kind of math, but only if they use that specific bonus stacking method (as far as I can tell). I don't think it'll be the same for any other combination of the skills after a change to that set of bonuses.


I'm pretty sure my math there is right, but a more clear explanation from CCP's end would be nice. :p

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#531 - 2012-11-26 00:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Bonus are multiplicative in EVE. That mean that for the afterburner cap use here we have :
activation cost = base activation cost * (1 - 0,5 (fuel conservation skill) * (1 - 0,5 (afterburner skill))
= base activation cost * 0,5^2
= base activation cost * 0,25

And I saw it on the test server, cap use is not zero.

As far as I know, most (if not all) things work this way in the game.

With the afterburner skill now reducing the afterburner duration too, the cap use will be the same (exactly) than before. The only advantages of the change are a lower cap use tic at each cycle (good when neutralized) and a lower cycle time (good for reaching warp speed ?).
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#532 - 2012-11-26 00:20:31 UTC
The new skills and Grail/ Jackal/ Spur/ Talon make ECCM a bit like over kill. I dare say it would take 2 Falcons to Jam me but it's not as bad as one might think. So many PvP people are as OCD on dps as miners are on yield and they won't lose a quarter of a volley to counter a falcon.
trited
#533 - 2012-11-26 03:49:40 UTC
Has the new eccm skills been tested with the ratts in some of the missions that ecm?

http://youtu.be/8vdlqLGgrW0

Luscius Uta
#534 - 2012-11-29 12:01:33 UTC
I'd prefer if there was one sensor compensation skill with higher multiplier (x5 would be perfect) instead of 4 racial ones.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Anthar Thebess
#535 - 2012-11-29 23:02:57 UTC
CCP shoudl think about anti capital jammers, carriers will be now hard as hell to jamm.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#536 - 2012-11-30 16:45:32 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP shoudl think about anti capital jammers, carriers will be now hard as hell to jamm.


Good.
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#537 - 2012-11-30 23:38:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated on November 22nd:

Hello everyone. Another set of changes to get feedback on for Retri.
Since we're adjusting so many ewar ships between the disruption frigates and disruption cruisers, we saw the need to make some moderate adjustments to the modules as well as to other ewar ships to keep them competitive.

The reason these are being revealed near the end of our feature announcements is that we were investigating options for a more comprehensive ECM rebalance, however that will not be able to make it into Retribution. These changes are not the final solution for ewar by a long shot, they are incremental changes that will build towards the more complete changes we would like to make to the mechanics.

Here's what we currently have on our plate for Retribution:

    ECM
    *Reduce Optimal Range and Falloff of all ECM modules by 10%
    *Add to the Optimal Range and Falloff bonus on ECM range bonused ships by 2.5% for the Blackbird, Kitsune and Tengu Obfuscation Manifold (bringing it to 12.5%) and 5% for the Scorpion (bringing it to 25%)
    *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 4% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 2 skills in the Electronics category)

    Damps
    *Increase Optimal Range of all Remote Sensor Dampeners by 20%
    *Set the Damp strength bonus on Damp bonused ships to 7.5% per level

    Tracking Disruptors
    *Reduce TD base module effectiveness by 5%
    *Set the TD strength bonus on all TD bonused ships to 7.5% per level

    Target Painter
    *Set the TP strength bonus on TP bonused ships to 7.5% per level for T1 and 10% per level for T2


We are aware of the effect the new skills will have on probing, and we're going to be keeping our eyes on it and have a few tricks up our sleeve in that regard.

We also want to reiterate that we are not looking at these ecm changes as a complete solution to the problems with that mechanic. It's a moderate change that we can make with the resources available for this expansion and that won't get in the way of our more comprehensive changes down the road.




This is a joke!

Do below and I'll sub 2 more accounts for 1 year;

*Reduce TD base module effectiveness by 20%
*Leave Remote Sensor Dampeners AS IS
*Reduce Optimal Range and Falloff of all ECM modules by 20 - 30%

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#538 - 2012-12-01 09:11:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Oh, im not complaining they are imbalanced, I just think the skill point multiplier should be knocked down by 1.

We agree that the rank of the new Sensor Comp skills is a bit excessive and have decided to lower it down. However 5% per level at a rank 2 was a bit too powerful in this case so we're also reducing the effect to 4% per level.

The end result is a better bang for your hour spent training, but a slightly lower potential end result.

So the skills are now Rank 2 Int/Mem, providing 4% increased sensor strength in their chosen sensor type per level.

Actually this is much WORSE bang for the buck. I'd much rather you reverted it; with this change you need to train a rank 2 skill to V (slightly over a week of training) to get the same result you used to get from training a rank 3 skill to IV (slightly over 2 days of training).

I feel betrayed. :(

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#539 - 2012-12-01 16:56:08 UTC
If you don't train the skill you will only be as terrible as you are now. If you do train the skill you are less likely to get falcon'd. Whats the big deal?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2012-12-01 19:19:50 UTC
A few things:

Four new skills are a terrible idea. There should be only one skill that affects sensor strength or no skills. Additionally, this makes it even easier to make magical ships that can't be probed without virtues, and that's just stupid.

You didn't touch ECM drones.

The last thing that needs to happen is to make ECM modules MORE specialized. They're already trash on unbonused ships (racials against the proper race are not completely terrible, but still not good and you can only counter one race). Bonused ships should be better at EWAR, but not the only ships where it's worth fitting the modules.