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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1221 - 2012-11-20 18:21:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
What was the rationale behind the 15 min logout timer for NPC aggression?


1.) In regards to the NPC Timer:
The biggest reason for the NPC timer change is to prevent people from logging out to avoid a fight. A very common tactic used by ratters and miners is to ctrl-q anytime a hostile enter's system. Since sixty seconds is NOT enough time for an enemy to hunt you down and gank you, it's a surefire way to save your ratting carrier if it happens to be scrammed by an NPC when that hostile enters system. To be frank, logging out should NOT be a tool to "get safe" from hostiles.... When they lowered it to 5 minutes, they also made another major change: You can gain an indefinitely extendable PvP timer if someone shoots your ship before it despawns. This is a wonderful change, although the despawn timer could use some tweaking.


The concern is if you are scrammed by an npc and you see someone come into local that you will log off. I am sorry but this is pretty weak. Rarely do rats scram anyone and rarely do pvers allow rats to keep them scrammed when they do. 99.9% of the time the rat aggro comes from something other than a scram.

On the flip side if I disconnect due to a bad internet connection then my ship and pod will be a sitting in space for five minutes. Does CCP believe that internet providers are now so wonderfull that no one ever loses their connection anymore? This is imbalanced toward making eve depend more on your internet connection than your knowledge or skill at the game.

Plus 15 minutes from the time of a pvp fight? Wouldn't five minutes do? I mean how bad with a scanner does the enemy need to be that they can't find you in 5 minutes?


The scramming rat is unimportant. The important part: People are currently using the log-off mechanics to "get their ship safe". A carrier and Orca takes 30 seconds to align, and are at serious risk of being tackled when a hostile enters system... so many just log off to insure even if they do get tackled, they will despawn long before they die. Nullsec mining ops, where people are using many clients, often just dc all exhumers rather than attempting to warp them to safety. This is broken, wrong, and needs to be changed. The incoming changes do just that, making it so you have to fly your ship to safety for it to be safe! The new game mechanics discourage dc'ing as a means to "get safe".

As for the I dc'd and now my ship is in space for 5 minutes:
--- If you have the 5 minute NPC timer, yup... My internet dc's moderately often, and I usually have a 15 minute PvP timer. I just log back in when I can (about 60-90 s normally) and continue doing what I was doing. Here's the biggest issue: While there are legit cases of people dc'ing, the EvE playerbase, as a whole, has overwhelmingly abused dc/logoff mechancis to "save" their ships. CCP is nyxing this in the butt, and that's a GOOD thing!

As for the 15 minute PvP timer:
--- The PvP timer is currently 15 minutes, and has been for a long time. One reasons it was 15 minutes: you originally couldn't extend the PvP timer once your target logged out, and CCP wanted it long enough for a medium gang to kill a capital ship (Freighter, Orca, Carrier) before it despawned. Since you can now indefinitely extend the PvP timer, reducing the despawn timer to 5 minutes sounds acceptable; however, it has implications elsewhere. The PvP timer also controls how long you can be legally shot at when you commit a criminal/suspect action. Reducing this timer to 5 minutes would significantly reduce the "penalties" for criminal/suspect actions. Additonally, we easily manage 15 minute timers now, so I don't particularly see a need to reduce it.

Cearain wrote:
What is the point of making us warp around longer in a pod?
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

2.) The session change timer (which controlled your ability to dock, jump, change ship) is currently 10 seconds... It used to be 30 seconds. A 60 second timer won't be a big deal... The reason for the change probably has something to do with maintaining PvP flags through a session change. Otherwise, you could clear your PvP timer anytime you traverse a WH.

I don't understand what you mean with maintaining pvp timers through a sessions change. If you are in a pod you won't be attacking anyone.


Let me elaborate on what I said:

The Weapons timer is what prevents you from docking, ejecting, jumping, or boarding a new ship. The purpose of the weapons timer is to give you a penalty when you commit a hostile action, so you can't shoot someone and dock up or jump through a gate.

The session change timer happens anytime you change sessions, which includes: dock/undock, ejecting/boarding/changing a ship, change system, change fleet position, and perhaps a few others... The purpose of the session change timer: to allow your client and the server to synchronize with each other before you perform another session change. The session change timer used to be 30 seconds, then they reduced it, and reduced it, and currently it is 10 seconds.

In the old days, a session change often cleared your flags. Pilots often cleared their PvP flag by jumping through a gate, and then logging off while under gate cloak. Without the PvP timer, your ship despawns within 60 seconds, often saving it from otherwise destruction. Now, PvP flags (usually) follow you through a session change timer, so now you can only shed a PvP Flag by waiting 15 minutes.

With the new system your PvP, Criminal, and Suspect flags should follow you through all session changes. There are many session changes you can perform while you have a Weapons flag, which include cynoing, jumping through a WH, changing fleet positions, etc. While I support not transferring the Weapons flag through a session change, they need to transfer the rest.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1222 - 2012-11-20 21:17:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
What was the rationale behind the 15 min logout timer for NPC aggression?


1.) In regards to the NPC Timer:
The biggest reason for the NPC timer change is to prevent people from logging out to avoid a fight. A very common tactic used by ratters and miners is to ctrl-q anytime a hostile enter's system. Since sixty seconds is NOT enough time for an enemy to hunt you down and gank you, it's a surefire way to save your ratting carrier if it happens to be scrammed by an NPC when that hostile enters system. To be frank, logging out should NOT be a tool to "get safe" from hostiles.... When they lowered it to 5 minutes, they also made another major change: You can gain an indefinitely extendable PvP timer if someone shoots your ship before it despawns. This is a wonderful change, although the despawn timer could use some tweaking.


The concern is if you are scrammed by an npc and you see someone come into local that you will log off. I am sorry but this is pretty weak. Rarely do rats scram anyone and rarely do pvers allow rats to keep them scrammed when they do. 99.9% of the time the rat aggro comes from something other than a scram.

On the flip side if I disconnect due to a bad internet connection then my ship and pod will be a sitting in space for five minutes. Does CCP believe that internet providers are now so wonderfull that no one ever loses their connection anymore? This is imbalanced toward making eve depend more on your internet connection than your knowledge or skill at the game.

Plus 15 minutes from the time of a pvp fight? Wouldn't five minutes do? I mean how bad with a scanner does the enemy need to be that they can't find you in 5 minutes?


The scramming rat is unimportant. The important part: People are currently using the log-off mechanics to "get their ship safe". A carrier and Orca takes 30 seconds to align, and are at serious risk of being tackled when a hostile enters system... so many just log off to insure even if they do get tackled, they will despawn long before they die. Nullsec mining ops, where people are using many clients, often just dc all exhumers rather than attempting to warp them to safety. This is broken, wrong, and needs to be changed. The incoming changes do just that, making it so you have to fly your ship to safety for it to be safe! The new game mechanics discourage dc'ing as a means to "get safe".


They are worried people won't be able to gank null sec carebears. Ok.

30 seconds if they are not aligned. But even then its going to be hard to scan someone down and point them if they are at the keyboard. (which they presumably are if they can log off.) It may be that the nullbears currently avoid getting ganked by dcing now but its not like they will be getting ganked much more if they are at keyboard even with this change.

In the mean time many ships of people who dc due to internet connection will be just sitting there with nothing they can do about it.

In any event this change clearly tips the scales toward puting more importance on internet connections instead of skill or knowledge. I hope we can agree on that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1223 - 2012-11-20 21:59:11 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

As for the I dc'd and now my ship is in space for 5 minutes:
--- If you have the 5 minute NPC timer, yup... My internet dc's moderately often, and I usually have a 15 minute PvP timer. I just log back in when I can (about 60-90 s normally) and continue doing what I was doing.


Your lucky. When my internet cuts out I call and I am told it might be 24 hours to get it back. This has been happening about 1 per week or 2.



Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Here's the biggest issue: While there are legit cases of people dc'ing, the EvE playerbase, as a whole, has overwhelmingly abused dc/logoff mechancis to "save" their ships. CCP is nyxing this in the butt, and that's a GOOD thing!


After, playing this game for about 3 years I never had an issue with someone getting away due to the log off trick. I realize that was an issue with capital ships but they fixed that. These changes are draconian and make connections very important while addressing very slight problems.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

As for the 15 minute PvP timer:
--- The PvP timer is currently 15 minutes, and has been for a long time. One reasons it was 15 minutes: you originally couldn't extend the PvP timer once your target logged out, and CCP wanted it long enough for a medium gang to kill a capital ship (Freighter, Orca, Carrier) before it despawned. Since you can now indefinitely extend the PvP timer, reducing the despawn timer to 5 minutes sounds acceptable; however, it has implications elsewhere. The PvP timer also controls how long you can be legally shot at when you commit a criminal/suspect action. Reducing this timer to 5 minutes would significantly reduce the "penalties" for criminal/suspect actions. Additonally, we easily manage 15 minute timers now, so I don't particularly see a need to reduce it.!


Thats because when you dc you can log in again in 60-90 seconds so you ship is not sitting there for 15 minutes.

I didn't think shooting someone in self defense was criminal. Will my timer still be 15 minutes if I didn't shoot first?

There is no need for the ship to be sitting there that long if the timer keeps refreshing. They can leave this at 1 minute or so, unless they really want to punish people with bad connections.



Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Let me elaborate on what I said:

The Weapons timer is what prevents you from docking, ejecting, jumping, or boarding a new ship. The purpose of the weapons timer is to give you a penalty when you commit a hostile action, so you can't shoot someone and dock up or jump through a gate.

The session change timer happens anytime you change sessions, which includes: dock/undock, ejecting/boarding/changing a ship, change system, change fleet position, and perhaps a few others... The purpose of the session change timer: to allow your client and the server to synchronize with each other before you perform another session change. The session change timer used to be 30 seconds, then they reduced it, and reduced it, and currently it is 10 seconds.

In the old days, a session change often cleared your flags. Pilots often cleared their PvP flag by jumping through a gate, and then logging off while under gate cloak. Without the PvP timer, your ship despawns within 60 seconds, often saving it from otherwise destruction. Now, PvP flags (usually) follow you through a session change timer, so now you can only shed a PvP Flag by waiting 15 minutes.

With the new system your PvP, Criminal, and Suspect flags should follow you through all session changes. There are many session changes you can perform while you have a Weapons flag, which include cynoing, jumping through a WH, changing fleet positions, etc. While I support not transferring the Weapons flag through a session change, they need to transfer the rest.



I knew most of this history. But this history doesn't explain why they are changing how pods work now.

They are purposely changing the way pods work. Currently you have to wait out a 10 second timer to jump or dock. (which basically means you can dock or jump after you warp your pod out) They are changing it to a a sixty second timer. I am just wondering why they are changing it. It seems arbitrary. What advantage to the game is there, in forcing people to keep warping their pods around?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1224 - 2012-11-21 18:48:16 UTC
I believe part of it is so that you don't have people almost instantly back with a 2nd ship after you worked hard to remove him from the battle field (this is most noticeable with logi and ecm). By doing this it a) gives you a little breathing room to try and go after another target, and b) makes that pod a little more vulnerable for people to try and get a lock on / pod kill.

At least that's the way I see it by their change.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#1225 - 2012-11-21 20:17:32 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

Pretty sure 1 is intentional

2 points out some interesting edge cases.

3 You didnt read the line where they inherit all the flags of the ship they're repping. If you're attacking something and it gets repped, whatever allowed you to attack the first dude will allow you to attack his repairers.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1226 - 2012-11-21 20:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

Pretty sure 1 is intentional

2 points out some interesting edge cases.

3 You didnt read the line where they inherit all the flags of the ship they're repping. If you're attacking something and it gets repped, whatever allowed you to attack the first dude will allow you to attack his repairers.


1.) These are my suggestion, in response to CCP's posted cahnge to the PvP flag: The amazing, wonderful change states: You can give a person an indefinitely extendable PvP flag by aggressing their ships before they despawn, even if they did NOT have a PvP flag prior to logging off.

The problem this creates: The current 60 second despawn window is long enough that anytime you notice someone log off in system, you can can easily deploy probes, locate their ship, and aggress it before it can despawn. This NEEDS to be addressed, and I suggested reducing the unaggressed despawn timer to do so. It might also be addressed by a "safe" logoff feature...

2.) The impacts on highsec incursion fleets are a pretty significant "edge" case. With the changes as they currently are stated, ripping apart highsec incursion fleets becomes trivial... and will essentially destroy that community. <-- Changing the trigger to require a Weapons flag solves this....

3.) You don't understand the scenario here. If you shoot a Suspect (which you can legally do because they have a Suspect Flag), you create a Limited Engagement between you and that suspect. Limited Engagements are NEVER transferred. Additionally, you won't have any Suspect or Criminal Flags, because shooting a Suspect/Criminal is LEGAL. As such, when an in-corp / alliance / militia buddy of yours repairs you, they will gain a PvP and Weapons Flag (because you have those flags), but they will NOT gain a Suspect or Criminal Flag, and the LE will NOT be transferred to them. As such, the Suspect CANNOT legally shoot that logi. Hence, an untouchable logistics ship. <-- In truth, this is not game breaking. It just really sucks to be a Suspect under these circumstances.
Miccet
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
#1227 - 2012-11-22 09:11:59 UTC
Sorry if this was already covered but I browsed through about 40 pages without finding my specific question. There should be a FAQ in the first post with the most popular questions.

Anyway. If I'm in a carrier, repping someone who is aggressing (having a PVP flag), I will get that flag too, correct? Will that prevent me to refit using another carrier next to me in a reasonable time frame (a few seconds)? If so, I guess subcap pilots will be unable to grab stuff from my hangar / reship as well mid-fight?
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1228 - 2012-11-22 13:32:19 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

1) Using Safe-Logoff (dev blog coming shortly with more details) should let you get your ship out of space quicker than disconnecting, AND let you keep an eye on dscan for incoming probes/attackers in case you need to get to another (safer) spot

2) This has been modified: Assisting a non-corpmate with a PVP flag who is at war will get you a Suspect flag

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1229 - 2012-11-22 18:37:05 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

1) Using Safe-Logoff (dev blog coming shortly with more details) should let you get your ship out of space quicker than disconnecting, AND let you keep an eye on dscan for incoming probes/attackers in case you need to get to another (safer) spot

2) This has been modified: Assisting a non-corpmate with a PVP flag who is at war will get you a Suspect flag

3) This has been changed: Assisting anyone who is in an LE will get you a Suspect flag if the other parties in the LE can't already shoot you back.


Perfect... Thank you for the update! I look forward to the new crimewatch system!!!!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1230 - 2012-11-22 18:50:43 UTC
Miccet wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered but I browsed through about 40 pages without finding my specific question. There should be a FAQ in the first post with the most popular questions.

Anyway. If I'm in a carrier, repping someone who is aggressing (having a PVP flag), I will get that flag too, correct? Will that prevent me to refit using another carrier next to me in a reasonable time frame (a few seconds)? If so, I guess subcap pilots will be unable to grab stuff from my hangar / reship as well mid-fight?



To elaborate:
If you are in a Carrier and you rep someone, you inherit their flags. Assuming they are attacking someone, they will have the PvP flag and the Weapons flag, which your carrier will inherit.

A PvP Flag prevents your ship from despawning.
A Weapons Flag prevents a ship from stargate jumping, docking, or leaving their ship (except by explosion).

At the moment, Flags do NOT prevent refitting.

As such, so you and your buddies should be able to refit all mods using the carriers fitting services, including accessing / storing mods in the Corp Hangars (soon to be renamed fleet hangars). Aggressed Pilots (i.e. those with a Weapons Flag) will not be able to reship to ships in the Ship Hangar until they wait out their 60s weapons timer.
Dultas
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1231 - 2012-11-23 18:18:50 UTC
Looked though and didn't see anything about this but if you go suspect on a station in lowsec now the guns will shoot you, that is expected. However if you dock up and undock they will resume shooting you. Is that expected behavior, is docking up treated differently than simply warping off and the guns don't continue to shoot you when you get back. Seems like both of those actions should result in the guns not shooting you on your return.
Statutory Ape
Fairy Fleet
#1232 - 2012-11-23 21:27:57 UTC
Reticle wrote:
If the sec status hit is "front loaded" so that the penalty applies whether or not the target is killed, that implies that the sec status hit is going to be changed. Right now you get a lesser penalty for aggression and a heavier penalty for the kill. If you get a front loaded hit, then crimewatch will not be distinguishing between aggression and kills. Since kill rights are being given for criminal actions whether or not a kill results, a single shot at a target in high sec that resulted in you getting Concorded will get you a significant sec status hit, kill rights for the player you aggressed, and 3 flags (maybe more). Please note that this is for a single shot... like say a noob with hot weapons who hasn't turned off the Auto Target Back function.

It's good to have consequences, but there should be a valid path for becoming a high sec villain. Full penalties for a failed gank is a bit much. Kill rights for every criminal flag is a step too far. It should be kill rights for kills only.


He does not get a free kill on you.. you tried to kill him so now he gets to try to kill you.. seems legit imo.
Nerpimus
Doomheim
#1233 - 2012-11-24 11:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerpimus
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


The scramming rat is unimportant. The important part: People are currently using the log-off mechanics to "get their ship safe". A carrier and Orca takes 30 seconds to align, and are at serious risk of being tackled when a hostile enters system... so many just log off to insure even if they do get tackled, they will despawn long before they die. Nullsec mining ops, where people are using many clients, often just dc all exhumers rather than attempting to warp them to safety. This is broken, wrong, and needs to be changed. The incoming changes do just that, making it so you have to fly your ship to safety for it to be safe! The new game mechanics discourage dc'ing as a means to "get safe".

As for the I dc'd and now my ship is in space for 5 minutes:
--- If you have the 5 minute NPC timer, yup... My internet dc's moderately often, and I usually have a 15 minute PvP timer. I just log back in when I can (about 60-90 s normally) and continue doing what I was doing. Here's the biggest issue: While there are legit cases of people dc'ing, the EvE playerbase, as a whole, has overwhelmingly abused dc/logoff mechancis to "save" their ships. CCP is nyxing this in the butt, and that's a GOOD thing!


A good thing, sure, but if that's the intent behind the 5 minute rat timer, it's a pretty **** poor bandaid fix. If a ship's already scrammed when the DC happens, yeah, sure, whatever, it should remain in space for a time. Logging off in space should also require your ship to align to the emergency warpout location before leaving the grid (I always thought this was how it worked, but I guess I'm mistaken?).

IMO, with the possible exception of Incursions, the PvE in EVE is absolute crap. To help make things interesting for myself while grinding rats for ISK, I usually run around in something with a paper mache tank that requires me to be pretty careful about how I fly (the tier 3 BC's have been my favorite for this recently). However, I'm on a ****** rural DSL connection that tends to drop fairly regularly for hours at a time. This new timer crap is going to ensure that I'll be returning to the bad ol' days of ratting semi-AFK in something reasonably tanky while watching movies rather than, y'know, actually playing the game.
Ibeau Renoir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1234 - 2012-11-24 15:53:43 UTC
Auto-targetting (FOF) missiles seem to have been left out of the first table.

Ceci n'est pas un sig.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1235 - 2012-11-24 18:39:30 UTC
Nerpimus wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


The scramming rat is unimportant. The important part: People are currently using the log-off mechanics to "get their ship safe". A carrier and Orca takes 30 seconds to align, and are at serious risk of being tackled when a hostile enters system... so many just log off to insure even if they do get tackled, they will despawn long before they die. Nullsec mining ops, where people are using many clients, often just dc all exhumers rather than attempting to warp them to safety. This is broken, wrong, and needs to be changed. The incoming changes do just that, making it so you have to fly your ship to safety for it to be safe! The new game mechanics discourage dc'ing as a means to "get safe".

As for the I dc'd and now my ship is in space for 5 minutes:
--- If you have the 5 minute NPC timer, yup... My internet dc's moderately often, and I usually have a 15 minute PvP timer. I just log back in when I can (about 60-90 s normally) and continue doing what I was doing. Here's the biggest issue: While there are legit cases of people dc'ing, the EvE playerbase, as a whole, has overwhelmingly abused dc/logoff mechancis to "save" their ships. CCP is nyxing this in the butt, and that's a GOOD thing!


A good thing, sure, but if that's the intent behind the 5 minute rat timer, it's a pretty **** poor bandaid fix. If a ship's already scrammed when the DC happens, yeah, sure, whatever, it should remain in space for a time. Logging off in space should also require your ship to align to the emergency warpout location before leaving the grid (I always thought this was how it worked, but I guess I'm mistaken?).

IMO, with the possible exception of Incursions, the PvE in EVE is absolute crap. To help make things interesting for myself while grinding rats for ISK, I usually run around in something with a paper mache tank that requires me to be pretty careful about how I fly (the tier 3 BC's have been my favorite for this recently). However, I'm on a ****** rural DSL connection that tends to drop fairly regularly for hours at a time. This new timer crap is going to ensure that I'll be returning to the bad ol' days of ratting semi-AFK in something reasonably tanky while watching movies rather than, y'know, actually playing the game.


I might have confused you: When you disconnect:
1rst.) Your ship attempts a 1m km emergency warp. This is just like a standard warp, where your ship aligns, and any warp scrambling effect can prevent the warp.
2nd.) Your ship waits out your timers and then despawns. The current timers are: a 1m base timer you have when you don't have aggression, a 2 minute NPC aggresssion, and a 15 minute PvP aggression timer that can be renewed by further acts of aggression to your ship.

The new changes only alter the timers: Your ship will still try to ewarp, and then it will wait out it's timers and despawn. The differences are:
1.) The NPC timer is increased from 2 minutes to 5 minutes.
2.) You can gain a PvP timer even if you didn't have a PvP timer prior to logging off.

In short, the only thing that changes for you is how long your ship takes to despawn. If you already run missions in paper thin tanks on a shifty connection, then dramatic is changing for you. Currently, if you are scrammed with lots of enemies on the field when you dc, you die.... If you are not, your ship ewarps out. This is just like it currently is....

This change makes it so if there is a hostile in system, and you dc with rat aggro, then you face a serious risk of them scanning your ship down and killing you.
Nerpimus
Doomheim
#1236 - 2012-11-24 23:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerpimus
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


I might have confused you: When you disconnect:
1rst.) Your ship attempts a 1m km emergency warp. This is just like a standard warp, where your ship aligns, and any warp scrambling effect can prevent the warp.
2nd.) Your ship waits out your timers and then despawns. The current timers are: a 1m base timer you have when you don't have aggression, a 2 minute NPC aggresssion, and a 15 minute PvP aggression timer that can be renewed by further acts of aggression to your ship.

The new changes only alter the timers: Your ship will still try to ewarp, and then it will wait out it's timers and despawn. The differences are:
1.) The NPC timer is increased from 2 minutes to 5 minutes.
2.) You can gain a PvP timer even if you didn't have a PvP timer prior to logging off.

In short, the only thing that changes for you is how long your ship takes to despawn. If you already run missions in paper thin tanks on a shifty connection, then dramatic is changing for you. Currently, if you are scrammed with lots of enemies on the field when you dc, you die.... If you are not, your ship ewarps out. This is just like it currently is....

This change makes it so if there is a hostile in system, and you dc with rat aggro, then you face a serious risk of them scanning your ship down and killing you.


Yeah, I totally just skimmed the bits of the Crimewatch blog that detailed the new timers and interpreted '"will prevent a ship from being removed from space" as "it'll stay where it was when you logged for x minutes". Then made a dumb post. Then I downloaded the patch to test it out on Buckingham.

The expression on my face in RL was very similar to my avatar's shortly thereafter.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1237 - 2012-11-26 13:12:16 UTC
Dultas wrote:
Looked though and didn't see anything about this but if you go suspect on a station in lowsec now the guns will shoot you, that is expected. However if you dock up and undock they will resume shooting you. Is that expected behavior, is docking up treated differently than simply warping off and the guns don't continue to shoot you when you get back. Seems like both of those actions should result in the guns not shooting you on your return.

This is a defect and I'm fixing it at the moment. Docking and undocking should indeed clear your sentry aggro.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1238 - 2012-11-26 19:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: TrouserDeagle
I'm in reblier atm sitting on the 6-C gate unable to jump. Why is it so broken?

I aggressed a drone at a gate, and now about 5 minutes later I'm still unable to dock at any stations or jump. I also have 15 minutes 'suspect' timer, which obviously doesn't affect me since I'm outlaw master race, but surely it should've been ticking down? My weapons timer and my capsuleer log-off timer have both been at full this whole time as well. That other log-off timer was the only one ticking down.

Somewhat related: I bugreported drones auto-aggressing sentry guns, and your goons told me it's an intended feature, which is totally ********. FOFs do it as well. The badness of ECM-proof weapons is one of the reasons I dislike ECM so much. It's not even possible to lock a sentry gun, so I don't see why it should be a valid target for drones or missiles. They don't do this on TQ right now, I'm pretty sure.

(I'm still unable to jump after writing all this.)


edit: it all started ticking down as it should once I got movemed to 6-c.
Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1239 - 2012-11-27 17:34:30 UTC
One question regarding the mechanics... Some of the flags prohibit you from switching ship and docking while having the flag. Does that only apply to players who're still in a ship, or does it also apply to those whose ships have been destroyed and are going to re-ship? Currently, I know you can get a new ship if your ship is destroyed and you're a criminal, but the new flags do bring up some questions.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1240 - 2012-11-27 17:42:04 UTC
Plaude Pollard wrote:
One question regarding the mechanics... Some of the flags prohibit you from switching ship and docking while having the flag. Does that only apply to players who're still in a ship, or does it also apply to those whose ships have been destroyed and are going to re-ship? Currently, I know you can get a new ship if your ship is destroyed and you're a criminal, but the new flags do bring up some questions.


The Weapons flag prevents you from Docking, Jumping, or switching ships in space. It also follows you through session changes (like when your ship explodes and you enter a POD).

In short, if you lose your ship, you have to wait out your weapons flag (60 seconds from the last time you shot someone) before you can dock, board a new ship in space, use a gate, etc...

Strangely, if you get podded, and end up in station, it sounds like you can immediately board a new ship and undock to rejoin the fray even though your 60s weapons timer might not be up.