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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

First post
Author
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#561 - 2012-11-20 00:13:38 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Exactly,
PVP is done for fun, for the challenge. PVE is done to make isk. If PVE was changed to the point where the isk made from it took to much effort it would break the game.

It costs a lot of isk to PVP in decent ships. Where does that isk come from? There is a small income from loot drops and will be a small income from bounties if the new bounty system works out well. But this is not and will never be enough to support a PVP career.

Most null sec PVPers use ratting and plexing to raise this much needed isk. It is a fact that even the most avid PVPer has little chance of survival if caught by a small gang while flying their PVE ship. So why do they not rat in a PVP ship? Because a PVP ship is no better suited for PVE than a PVE ship is suited for PVP.

Changing the game to make PVP and PVE similar enough to be able to use the same ship is a nice idea. But this would require a complete reworking of the entire game, not just making the NPC's "smarter". A large group of NPC's will tear apart a PVP ship just as quickly as a gate camp will. Buffer tank just does not work for PVE. Likewise a PVE ship caught by a small gang will not be near capable of handling the incoming DPS with its local tank. It just does not have enough buffer. Changing the NPC A.I. will throw a wrench into the current PVE balance. It will take a very long time to fix the damage this will do. And the game will suffer for that time. Likely even losing a large number of active subscriptions.


I do not agree..
I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu..
I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain.
Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage..
But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE...

As for the subscriptions, I have allready unsubbed the bulk of my accounts because I don't need that many for all the PvE I am suddenly forced to do because blob warfare is boring..
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#562 - 2012-11-20 01:09:25 UTC
Singira wrote:
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...

Seems you don't really know how PLEX works...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#563 - 2012-11-20 06:34:18 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Singira wrote:
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...

Seems you don't really know how PLEX works...


They just magically appear?...

Obviously people buy these, but if just a few percentage of the players switch from spending real currencies to ISK...
I assume you now understand how that part works and will not need a step by step, handheld explanation for the rest?

Got any real insights aswell?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#564 - 2012-11-20 09:59:08 UTC
Singira wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Singira wrote:
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...

Seems you don't really know how PLEX works...


They just magically appear?...

Obviously people buy these, but if just a few percentage of the players switch from spending real currencies to ISK...
I assume you now understand how that part works and will not need a step by step, handheld explanation for the rest?

Got any real insights aswell?

CCP still makes more money because PLEX costs more than a 1 month subscription. Having a few percentage of players buy PLEX with ISK for their game time increases demand and decreases supply, causing inflation in PLEX prices, making it even more attractive to players with expendable RL income who need or want a quick boost to their EVE wallet.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#565 - 2012-11-20 11:04:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Singira wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Singira wrote:
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...

Seems you don't really know how PLEX works...


They just magically appear?...

Obviously people buy these, but if just a few percentage of the players switch from spending real currencies to ISK...
I assume you now understand how that part works and will not need a step by step, handheld explanation for the rest?

Got any real insights aswell?

CCP still makes more money because PLEX costs more than a 1 month subscription. Having a few percentage of players buy PLEX with ISK for their game time increases demand and decreases supply, causing inflation in PLEX prices, making it even more attractive to players with expendable RL income who need or want a quick boost to their EVE wallet.


As opposed to the current record high PLEX prices?
Yes PLEX price will rise, but if they will actually start selling more than they lose in current sale is purely speculative on your part, to put it mildly..
PLEX prices will rise with the new AI anyway, as most 0.0 players will have risk-free ratting and because of that a lot more disposable ISK..
However should you have a better way of getting through to Foxfour and stopping this joke of an AI, then feel free to let the rest of us know..
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#566 - 2012-11-20 14:27:49 UTC
Singira wrote:

I do not agree..
I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu..
I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain.
Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage..
But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE...

As for the subscriptions, I have allready unsubbed the bulk of my accounts because I don't need that many for all the PvE I am suddenly forced to do because blob warfare is boring..
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...

No offense but that is a very ignorant point of view.

While I agree with you that the Tengu will be relatively unaffected by the coming changes aside from a slight range and DPS nerf, it is one of very few ships that will not be hit hard by the coming changes.

Every battleship or drone boat that rely's on drones for DPS or just defense dealing with small ships will be hit like a freight train by these changes.

Just because you believe these changes will have minimal impact on your own PVE does not mean they will not affect the majority of the player base.

Blob warfare is something that has been around for years. I really do not understand what that has to do with the current changes. Most players who have multiple accounts do not do so for PVP but for PVE. aside from off grid boosters multi boxing for PVP is generally a bad idea. Most multi boxing is done for PVE. Again you are in the minority.

PLEX brings in more revenue per unit than subscriptions do. When I sub for 6 months at a time I pay about $12 per month. PLEX if bought on sale, is at the cheapest $17 per unit or $20 at normal price. So every account subbed with PLEX actually puts more cash in CCP's pocket than an account payed thru a sub. It does not matter whether that PLEX was bought today or a year ago. It is still worth more real money than a regular sub. Every PLEX in game was bought by someone with real money. So no matter how many are floating around in the market every account subbed through PLEX is a bonus for CCP not a loss.



Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#567 - 2012-11-20 16:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Singira
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Singira wrote:

I do not agree..
I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu..
I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain.
Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage..
But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE...

As for the subscriptions, I have allready unsubbed the bulk of my accounts because I don't need that many for all the PvE I am suddenly forced to do because blob warfare is boring..
I can only urge anyone enjoing PvP to start ratting for their monthly PLEX, cause I doubt it is the PvE crowd that is spending the most REAL currency on this game over spending ISK..
Apparently we are not really getting through to the Devs, likely the guys in accounting will have more push...

No offense but that is a very ignorant point of view.

While I agree with you that the Tengu will be relatively unaffected by the coming changes aside from a slight range and DPS nerf, it is one of very few ships that will not be hit hard by the coming changes.

Every battleship or drone boat that rely's on drones for DPS or just defense dealing with small ships will be hit like a freight train by these changes.

Just because you believe these changes will have minimal impact on your own PVE does not mean they will not affect the majority of the player base.

Blob warfare is something that has been around for years. I really do not understand what that has to do with the current changes. Most players who have multiple accounts do not do so for PVP but for PVE. aside from off grid boosters multi boxing for PVP is generally a bad idea. Most multi boxing is done for PVE. Again you are in the minority.

PLEX brings in more revenue per unit than subscriptions do. When I sub for 6 months at a time I pay about $12 per month. PLEX if bought on sale, is at the cheapest $17 per unit or $20 at normal price. So every account subbed with PLEX actually puts more cash in CCP's pocket than an account payed thru a sub. It does not matter whether that PLEX was bought today or a year ago. It is still worth more real money than a regular sub. Every PLEX in game was bought by someone with real money. So no matter how many are floating around in the market every account subbed through PLEX is a bonus for CCP not a loss.





MY PvE..
The point I was making is that this change does not in any way make current PvE content more challenging, interesting or fun..
I too have dronepilots and carrier pilots, and obviously they will be affected by the change..
For some this change will have little to no impact, but for others it will be an absolutely gamebreaking feature..
I hope this clarifies things for you..
We actually agree, I was merely pointing out that my tengu pilot will not see any fun new AI feature from this and that doing a Sanctum or a lvl4 mission in a PvP fit ship is possible..

As for multiboxing in PvP, I seem to do just fine so don't concern yourself with that part..
Some people like a blob, and that is all good and fine, but a lot of people have multiple accounts for PvP purposes and should you have any data that proves otherwise I would be very interested in seeing this..
If not I am going to dismiss your statement as a guess..
Personally I find blobs boring and frustrating most of the time, but again this is my point of view, people are different and the beautifull thing about EvE thus far has been it had room for all sorts of playstyles...

About the PLEX..
Every PLEX bought, has allready been bought..
Those money are allready in their pocket..
They are in not generating any new income..
Every Sub lost means that someone else has to fish up real cash from their pocket to supply the PLEX needed ingame..
With an increase in ISK ingame more will be prone to use ISK as payment rather than cash..
Since we have no numbers regarding how many will drop sub, and how many will start buying more PLEX for cash more than usual, any and all debate regarding this will be purely speculative and completely useless..
However the number of PLEX sold is not something you can rely on in the same way as someone making a subscription because CCP do not know when it will be used or by who..
This is really not as complicated as you want it to be..

Either way..
Everything is going to get more expensive after dec.4th due to the increase in ISK, and like I told James Amril-Kesh if you have a better suggestion to how you make CCP listen to valid complaints I am looking forward to hearing them..

So far all we have gotten is an admission of a terribad AI that will be "looked at sometime after Retribution"..
That is really not good enough for me..
If this is fine with you guys, good for you..
I however feel the need to complain about it some more untill I get a satisfactory response..
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#568 - 2012-11-20 16:49:02 UTC
So you say the changes will not significantly affect your game play.
Then you say this terribad new A.I. must be fixed.
Well which is it. This change can not have minimal effect and be game breaking at the same time.

There are a few game play styles that will not be affected as much as others. How ever I have tested this new A.I. on Duallity and found it game breaking for my play style.

FOXFOUR has made some further changes I have not tested yet, I just hope they are enough. The positive side is She has stated that this as it will be released on Dec 4th is not a done deal but will still need tweaking. I am encouraged by this as if this change does break the game and need to be futher adjusted it is already in the que so will get addressed quicker.

When it comes to running missions in a PVP boat. sure it can be done. Although some of the harder lvl 4 missions would be very dificult. But a PVP boat will not have near the completion times of a PVE mission runner. Besides most mission runners are obsessed with isk/hr and a dedicated PVE ship completes them much faster. For the record a Tengu although it can be used for PVP is a prime PVE boat. T3 cruisers are the exception not the rule.

As Far as PLEX goes, you talk as if every PLEX in game bought bought years ago. This is so far from reallity. The simple fact that the number of PLEX is game has been relatively stable is proof that the number of PLEX used for subs is fairly balanced with the number of new PLEX purchased and brought into game.

If the use of PLEX for account game time increases the demand will go up. When the demand goes up the cost of those PLEX will go up. The higher the price gets the more players will buy PLEX to sell in game as they will get more isk for it. The supply vs demand of PLEX will always balance out. I do agree with you that the demand for PLEX used for game time will increase. In fact I expect to see PLEX prices closer to 1 bil by X-mas.

The effect of this though will be an increase in PLEX purchased for real money by players with disposable income. So in reality the more players that shift from paying subscriptions to buying PLEX in game will only increase CCP's income as more PLEX will be bought with real isk for higher prices than a normal sub in order to meet the demand for PLEX in game.

I understand what you are saying about PLEX that have been sitting in the market for some time is money CCP has already received, while active subscriptions produce fresh income. However it makes no difference if the PLEX was bought to day or two years ago. It still cost more than a monthly sub. Any company that ran their fiances in a way that would allow for your prediction to be true would go bankrupt very quickly. This is just not done.

It is like balancing your cheque book. Once you write a cheque you must treat that money as if it is already spent. If you do not when the cheque gets cashed it will bounce. I actually had a cheque I wrote for several hundred dollars once not get cashed until 8 months after I wrote it. Had I not accounted for that money already being spent it could have easily bounced. Like wise every time CCP sells a PLEX they must plan on that PLEX being applied and replacing a months sub at some future point. This is why PLEX will always cost more than a normal subscription. There is more work involved in financial planning with such things included. The advantage for CCP is they can have a PLEX sale to raise cash quickly when needed while the pay back of that cash is distributed slowly over a longer period of time thru the subscription fees that it offsets. Add to this the fact that PLEX in game can be destroyed or lost and they are even further ahead.

A month or so ago there was a freighter destroyed with several hundred PLEX in its cargo. Most of those PLEX were destroyed not dropped. now CCP no longer has to supply services for those lost PLEX. This may have even been a CCP DEV alt intentionally destroying PLEX as I do not believe any real player in EVE would be that stupid. But regardless no matter how you look at it. the PLEX system is a benefit to CCP not as burden. The few minor inconveniences it causes are worked into their financial model and have minimal impact.




Sid Grey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#569 - 2012-11-20 18:05:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Grey
Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it!

If your actively using them they way CCP wants us too, they shouldnt get nuked. If you just drone drones and let the game kill itself then yeah, bad stuff should happen.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#570 - 2012-11-20 18:17:26 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
So you say the changes will not significantly affect your game play.
Then you say this terribad new A.I. must be fixed.
Well which is it. This change can not have minimal effect and be game breaking at the same time.

There are a few game play styles that will not be affected as much as others. How ever I have tested this new A.I. on Duallity and found it game breaking for my play style.

FOXFOUR has made some further changes I have not tested yet, I just hope they are enough. The positive side is She has stated that this as it will be released on Dec 4th is not a done deal but will still need tweaking. I am encouraged by this as if this change does break the game and need to be futher adjusted it is already in the que so will get addressed quicker.

When it comes to running missions in a PVP boat. sure it can be done. Although some of the harder lvl 4 missions would be very dificult. But a PVP boat will not have near the completion times of a PVE mission runner. Besides most mission runners are obsessed with isk/hr and a dedicated PVE ship completes them much faster. For the record a Tengu although it can be used for PVP is a prime PVE boat. T3 cruisers are the exception not the rule.

As Far as PLEX goes, you talk as if every PLEX in game bought bought years ago. This is so far from reallity. The simple fact that the number of PLEX is game has been relatively stable is proof that the number of PLEX used for subs is fairly balanced with the number of new PLEX purchased and brought into game.

If the use of PLEX for account game time increases the demand will go up. When the demand goes up the cost of those PLEX will go up. The higher the price gets the more players will buy PLEX to sell in game as they will get more isk for it. The supply vs demand of PLEX will always balance out. I do agree with you that the demand for PLEX used for game time will increase. In fact I expect to see PLEX prices closer to 1 bil by X-mas.

The effect of this though will be an increase in PLEX purchased for real money by players with disposable income. So in reality the more players that shift from paying subscriptions to buying PLEX in game will only increase CCP's income as more PLEX will be bought with real isk for higher prices than a normal sub in order to meet the demand for PLEX in game.

I understand what you are saying about PLEX that have been sitting in the market for some time is money CCP has already received, while active subscriptions produce fresh income. However it makes no difference if the PLEX was bought to day or two years ago. It still cost more than a monthly sub. Any company that ran their fiances in a way that would allow for your prediction to be true would go bankrupt very quickly. This is just not done.

It is like balancing your cheque book. Once you write a cheque you must treat that money as if it is already spent. If you do not when the cheque gets cashed it will bounce. I actually had a cheque I wrote for several hundred dollars once not get cashed until 8 months after I wrote it. Had I not accounted for that money already being spent it could have easily bounced. Like wise every time CCP sells a PLEX they must plan on that PLEX being applied and replacing a months sub at some future point. This is why PLEX will always cost more than a normal subscription. There is more work involved in financial planning with such things included. The advantage for CCP is they can have a PLEX sale to raise cash quickly when needed while the pay back of that cash is distributed slowly over a longer period of time thru the subscription fees that it offsets. Add to this the fact that PLEX in game can be destroyed or lost and they are even further ahead.

A month or so ago there was a freighter destroyed with several hundred PLEX in its cargo. Most of those PLEX were destroyed not dropped. now CCP no longer has to supply services for those lost PLEX. This may have even been a CCP DEV alt intentionally destroying PLEX as I do not believe any real player in EVE would be that stupid. But regardless no matter how you look at it. the PLEX system is a benefit to CCP not as burden. The few minor inconveniences it causes are worked into their financial model and have minimal impact.






Ok, since apparently reading is hard..

My PvE = Not affected because I can easily do 0.0 anoms and lvl4's without the use of drones, and there is no such thing as a "hard" lvl4 mission..
Actually I can fit less tank to my missionboats now, because I know agro will be distributed between them and none of them will take full agro..

My PvP = Broken cause I can no longer hunt ratters in a bomber or other small stuff solo..

Simple enough I should think..

As for the PLEX debate:

ALL PLEX on market have been paid for allready with RL cash.
The time they have been there is irrelevant, it is a I.O.U. from CCP to the person who redeems said PLEX.
If you stop supplying RL cash, it will show up in the "checkbook" because less money is going in and if this is going to balance then "someone" has to start buying more PLEX to make up for the loss in subs, or GTC's..
There are no two ways about that..

If you feel that you should keep paying CCP for adding the AI you allso dislike, feel free to do so..

PLEX will get more expensive regardless, simply because more people will have more ISK to spend so demand will rise..

Clear cut enough for you?
I hope so, cause im not argueing with you about this anymore.

Pay them if you want to, don't if you want to push them a little towards making proper changes sooner than later...
I for one am going to keep my money and let someone else with too much RL cash pay for Foxfours terrible AI that is going live despite the fact that Foxfour has infact stated that it will be replaced because it is not working as intended..
It should simply just not go live untill a proper AI is created..
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#571 - 2012-11-20 18:18:05 UTC
Sid Grey wrote:
Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it!

I must have missed that post.

Actually would work well. AFK drone boats would be useless, while players willing to tell there drones what to do are rewarded with no drone aggro.

However this will not address the problem with group PVE. A battleship will still not be able to protect a logi. The logi will pull even more aggro from smaller ships as it will not share those ships with drones. Large weapon systems need a large increase in hate generation. And hate generation needs to be more powerful than size preference. A battleship should be able to pull the agro of cruiser size ships off other cruiser size ships.

I really do not want to have to give up flying battleships in PVE and switch to HAC's just to manage aggro. And what does this do to mission runners that can not fly T3 cruisers or HAC's?

A well fit logi can tank agro from a couple cruiser and smaller ships long enough for the BS to kill them. But sometimes there are 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships. If they all aggro the logi at once it is dead. the missions where a logi is actually needed, like most level 5 missions, 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships is very common. So the missions where the logi is needed the most are the same missions where it is the hardest to protect.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#572 - 2012-11-20 18:18:17 UTC
Sid Grey wrote:
Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it!


Far more issues than just drones..
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#573 - 2012-11-20 18:56:47 UTC
Singira wrote:


Ok, since apparently reading is hard..

My PvE = Not affected because I can easily do 0.0 anoms and lvl4's without the use of drones, and there is no such thing as a "hard" lvl4 mission..
Actually I can fit less tank to my missionboats now, because I know agro will be distributed between them and none of them will take full agro..

And you say I can't read??

Your PVE in a Tengu not being affected has absolutely zero impact on how other play styles are affected. This change is game breaking for battleships and drone boats. Ships like Tengu's that speed tank and do not use drones are irrelevant to this discussion.

Singira wrote:
My PvP = Broken cause I can no longer hunt ratters in a bomber or other small stuff solo..

Simple enough I should think..


If you actually read the comments from FOXFOUR this has already been fixed. Attacking a ratter will no longer generate threat with the NPC's. You will still have to deal with some small rats that the ratter has not generated threat with switching to your smaller ship. But hey, even ganking ratters needs to have some risk.

Singira wrote:
As for the PLEX debate:

ALL PLEX on market have been paid for allready with RL cash.
The time they have been there is irrelevant, it is a I.O.U. from CCP to the person who redeems said PLEX.
If you stop supplying RL cash, it will show up in the "checkbook" because less money is going in and if this is going to balance then "someone" has to start buying more PLEX to make up for the loss in subs, or GTC's..
There are no two ways about that..

Yes they have been payed for. The game time they will eventually cover has also been accounted for in CCP's finacial plan. You massively underestimate the number of new PLEX brought into the game thru players buying them with real money.
Do you recall what happened to PLEX a few months ago when the website to purchase PLEX was down? PLEX prices spiked to almost 700 mil and supply in Jita almost dried up. At one point there was less than 30 PLEX available in Jita.
You think I do not understand what you are saying. I do. It is just that you are wrong. If everyone stopped buying PLEX for real money today there would be no PLEX to buy in game within a few days. They move that fast. The more players buy PLEX for ISK in game the higher the price will go. The higher the price goes the more players will buy PLEX for cash to sell for isk. The more this happens the faster the PLEX market will move.
No matter how many players stop paying subs and switch to buying PLEX with isk it will only benefit CCP. there are already thousands of accounts payed with PLEX bought with isk. The one day their web site was down proved how quickly the PLEX supply depletes with the supply is stopped. There is no financial scenario where players switching from subs to buying PLEX for isk will not benefit CCP. The PLEX in the in game market are turned over in days not years. And the account extension from every PLEX in game has already been accounted for by CCP. So the scenario you are pushing does not exist.

Singira wrote:
If you feel that you should keep paying CCP for adding the AI you allso dislike, feel free to do so..

PLEX will get more expensive regardless, simply because more people will have more ISK to spend so demand will rise..

How is it that players have more isk to spend? Mining income has been increased some, most other incomes from mission running, plexing, ratting, incursions, etc. have not changed much, while the costs of everything in game has gone way up. Similar incomes combined with higher expenses means players have less isk over all to spend not more.

Singira wrote:
Clear cut enough for you?
I hope so, cause im not argueing with you about this anymore.

Pay them if you want to, don't if you want to push them a little towards making proper changes sooner than later...
I for one am going to keep my money and let someone else with too much RL cash pay for Foxfours terrible AI that is going live despite the fact that Foxfour has infact stated that it will be replaced because it is not working as intended..
It should simply just not go live untill a proper AI is created..


Well no offense but it make absolutely no difference to CCP if the money for your account comes from you or someone else who payed for the PLEX. In fact it is actually better for CCP to receive $17.50 to $20 for the PLEX than to receive $11.25 to $15 from you for the same game time. All the money goes to the same place, and increasing the demand for PLEX will only cause more PLEX to be purchased for real money. This will in now way reduce CCP's income, it will only increase it. The PLEX you use for your game time was not generated two years ago. It was probably generated within the last 48 hours. PLEX does move that fast. We have all seen it.

When the PLEX spike comes around X-mas as it always does. I plan On buying 6-12 PLEX to sell for isk. This will give me the capital needed to keep me in ships over the holidays when I do not wish to spend time grinding isk.
I do understand what you are trying to say. You just do not understand that you are wrong.
Mund Richard
#574 - 2012-11-20 18:59:30 UTC
Sid Grey wrote:
Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it!

While I see what you want to achieve, I don't see it being done from a designer's POW.

As in, it makes not much sense. Could just remove the aggressive drone setting and call it a day.

Of course that would be a terrible idea, when you are jammed or dampened below the target's range. What about NPCs that do those, suddenly drones need to be on "auto pilot", but then they are ripped apart? Not good.

You could just call for disabling target swapping for drones, but allow new waves to target drones.
That would still require some presence from the player, and yet wouldn't be just a switch on the player's part, which is a bit silly.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Mund Richard
#575 - 2012-11-20 19:06:31 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

A well fit logi can tank agro from a couple cruiser and smaller ships long enough for the BS to kill them. But sometimes there are 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships. If they all aggro the logi at once it is dead. the missions where a logi is actually needed, like most level 5 missions, 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships is very common. So the missions where the logi is needed the most are the same missions where it is the hardest to protect.

Interestingly enough, it's not just the cruisers that swap to new targets at times, but the WHOLE FRAGGIN ROOM!
So you'll need a logi that tanks, and a similarly fit logi that repairs the logi under fire, and then the other way around when the AI goes for the other one.
And let's not head into the Gurista jamming topic...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Sid Grey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#576 - 2012-11-20 19:35:35 UTC
Seriously though, CCP is trying to crackdown on farming, which sounds mostly legit. Dropping them in anoms and walking away yes is wrong, but active using your drones shouldnt get them nuked while there 30km and have no hope of making it back. Its like CCP gives drone users a reward in one hand(drone dps buff), then smacks the **** outta us with the other (dead drones). Hoever you can, please fix with either less aggro or no aggro for actively using my drones in anoms
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#577 - 2012-11-20 19:35:50 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

A well fit logi can tank agro from a couple cruiser and smaller ships long enough for the BS to kill them. But sometimes there are 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships. If they all aggro the logi at once it is dead. the missions where a logi is actually needed, like most level 5 missions, 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships is very common. So the missions where the logi is needed the most are the same missions where it is the hardest to protect.

Interestingly enough, it's not just the cruisers that swap to new targets at times, but the WHOLE FRAGGIN ROOM!
So you'll need a logi that tanks, and a similarly fit logi that repairs the logi under fire, and then the other way around when the AI goes for the other one.
And let's not head into the Gurista jamming topic...

Interesting. With my testing I was able to hold the agro of the Battlecruisers and battleships off my logi, but all the cruisers, destroyers, and frigates in the room attacked the logi and drones. when the drones where gone they all switched to the logi.

In a mission where there are only a handful of smaller ships this was manageable. I could pop them quickly. But some missions has over 20 small ships. That was enough DPS to insta pop my logi even with a tank on it. The alfa of so many NPC's switching at the same time insta popped it. having another logi there to throw reps would not have helped. There is no way of fitting a logi with enough buffer and still be an effective logi. This is level 5 missions not level 4. No need for logi in level 4 missions.

you can spider tank a bunch of HAC's and/or T3's but the traditional BS with logi support is no longer viable with this change.
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#578 - 2012-11-20 20:36:25 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


Whenever I read something like this, I wonder if this is really 'your' goal, or 'our' goal. Perhaps it is both. Reading this makes it sound so enjoyable, I mean who doesn't like PvP? But when you delve a little deeper into this statement, you come up with some pretty nagging questions:

1) Will the NPC rats drop the nice deadspace booster that the last tengru I killed did? Perhaps then it will be worth my time.

2) CCP hates solo PvP and has said so on multiple occasions, face it. PvP in EvE is always a matter of 'bring more', as 'bring more' always wins. So missions will turn into affairs of 'bring more' with the proposed change? We already have team NPC stuff (incursions and sleepers), now all rats will require teams?

3) Maybe you're much better than I am, but I have never considered PvPing in a marauder, ever. Not to mention that active tanks in PvP become rather pointless as numbers grow. So are you changing Marauders into solo pwn mobiles, or removing them from the game? See marauders are suppose to be mission running ships, and not PvP ships (thus the minimal sensor strength and gimped grid on the vargur so you can't put neuts on it - remember that's what you told us when you released them) Can I have my sp refunded when they are removed from the game?

Face it, turning missions into solo PvP contests is rife with problems. Shield tanks are often gimped when they have to fit webs and scrams to hold NPC's while you kill them. But we can handle this in PvP since we don't solo in them, I love my hawk when I'm roaming in a gang, but for solo work I normally switch to the vengence.

I guess I applaud your decision to not allow NPC's to target drones multiple times until you fix the problems with NPC agression (because I like to hunt ratters too). But you need to fix other issues too, like frigates than can target you @ 70k and web you from 60. NPC's that you can't neut off their guns and reps. NPC torps that hit you from beyond t2 jav ranges. And the fact that tanking 20 NPC battleships shooting at you isn't all that difficult. When you give NPC's the same ships that players have, with the same limitations and drops, then by all means make me kill one or two of them and call it a mission, hell remove the bounties and let me live on random drops of faction/deadspace loot.

Oh and fix the marauders so that they work against these new NPC's or remove them and refund our sp's.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#579 - 2012-11-20 21:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Singira
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

And you say I can't read??

Your PVE in a Tengu not being affected has absolutely zero impact on how other play styles are affected. This change is game breaking for battleships and drone boats. Ships like Tengu's that speed tank and do not use drones are irrelevant to this discussion.


This is a perfect example of you reading but apparently not understanding. Not bothering anymore..

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

If you actually read the comments from FOXFOUR this has already been fixed. Attacking a ratter will no longer generate threat with the NPC's. You will still have to deal with some small rats that the ratter has not generated threat with switching to your smaller ship. But hey, even ganking ratters needs to have some risk.


Foxfour has said no such thing, and if you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that it is the small rats that is the problem, not the battleships..
You think there is not enough risk involved in jumping a BS or BC in a frig deep in hostile 0.0 with 10+ of his friends in local?
Either you are clueless or trolling.

I just went to Buckingham before posting this, to test that I am not wrong..
Went to an anomaly with an alt and started ratting..
Jumped my alt with a Purifier and warpdisrupted him.
Instantly caught agro from frigates/dessies regardless if he had drones out.
Most of the time I get agro from a few cruisers too
Even got up to BS agro ONLY for warpdisrupting the ratter if I stuck around disrupting the ratting BS for long enough.
I even caught agro from rats the ratting BS was currently shooting at..

Edit: And how do you suggest the ratter will "generate threat" on these other rats, when their agro is based on Sig radius and use of Ewar?... Roll

Even from the viewpoint of a ratter this is so incredibly stupid, and it is in sharp contrast to wanting to nerf 0.0 PvE income..

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

bla bla bla more crap about PLEX


Not getting into this anymore as you clearly do not understand the point, do as you wish I dont care..

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

How is it that players have more isk to spend? Mining income has been increased some, most other incomes from mission running, plexing, ratting, incursions, etc. have not changed much, while the costs of everything in game has gone way up. Similar incomes combined with higher expenses means players have less isk over all to spend not more.


They will have more ISK because the only thing that is preventing full farm 23-7 in 0.0 is people trying to kill them.
And you make significantly more out there than you do running missions..

The new "AI" quite simply means that hunting ratters is close to impossible without a gang or upshipping to the point where I can tank the ratter and the rats.
But in turn that will mean getting around will become close to impossible as I will be a lot easier to catch for the blob having SOV and a more expensive and thus more interesting target to hunt.

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Blabla more PLEX ****. You just do not understand that you are wrong.


Well you assume that you are right based solely on the assumption that an equal ammount of PLEX will be bought to compensate.
And like I said, it is your money do with them as you please, keep paying for admitted broken content going live regardless.

But from my point of view.. If you want to avoid your logi getting agro, don't bring it..
Bring a fast frigate with a targetpainter/remote sebo/trackinglinks and speedtank everything while your ratting BS can just sit practically without a tank and kill everything while the fast frigate is orbitting you at your optimal range speedtanking everything..
Most of the time the frig will get most of the agro..

Last but not least, any testing done lately should have been done on Buckingham, so clearly you havent been on testservers for quite a while.
So stop trying to lecture me about how it works when you have not even checked it. Roll
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#580 - 2012-11-20 21:08:10 UTC
Veryez wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


Whenever I read something like this, I wonder if this is really 'your' goal, or 'our' goal. Perhaps it is both. Reading this makes it sound so enjoyable, I mean who doesn't like PvP? But when you delve a little deeper into this statement, you come up with some pretty nagging questions:

1) Will the NPC rats drop the nice deadspace booster that the last tengru I killed did? Perhaps then it will be worth my time.

2) CCP hates solo PvP and has said so on multiple occasions, face it. PvP in EvE is always a matter of 'bring more', as 'bring more' always wins. So missions will turn into affairs of 'bring more' with the proposed change? We already have team NPC stuff (incursions and sleepers), now all rats will require teams?

3) Maybe you're much better than I am, but I have never considered PvPing in a marauder, ever. Not to mention that active tanks in PvP become rather pointless as numbers grow. So are you changing Marauders into solo pwn mobiles, or removing them from the game? See marauders are suppose to be mission running ships, and not PvP ships (thus the minimal sensor strength and gimped grid on the vargur so you can't put neuts on it - remember that's what you told us when you released them) Can I have my sp refunded when they are removed from the game?

Face it, turning missions into solo PvP contests is rife with problems. Shield tanks are often gimped when they have to fit webs and scrams to hold NPC's while you kill them. But we can handle this in PvP since we don't solo in them, I love my hawk when I'm roaming in a gang, but for solo work I normally switch to the vengence.

I guess I applaud your decision to not allow NPC's to target drones multiple times until you fix the problems with NPC agression (because I like to hunt ratters too). But you need to fix other issues too, like frigates than can target you @ 70k and web you from 60. NPC's that you can't neut off their guns and reps. NPC torps that hit you from beyond t2 jav ranges. And the fact that tanking 20 NPC battleships shooting at you isn't all that difficult. When you give NPC's the same ships that players have, with the same limitations and drops, then by all means make me kill one or two of them and call it a mission, hell remove the bounties and let me live on random drops of faction/deadspace loot.

Oh and fix the marauders so that they work against these new NPC's or remove them and refund our sp's.


THIS... SO MUCH THIS!
Can I vote for you next CSM?