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W-ORE ships
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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1 - 2012-10-29 15:11:19 UTC
It seems a shame to train up skills like "ORE Industrial" and "Industrial Command Ships" when there is currently only one ship available for each skill, (not including the utterly redundant Primae.)

I would like to see a new ship or two available in these classes:

A semi-modular heavy hauler in the "ORE Industrial" class. A battlecruiser sized hauler with a bit more EHP than the normal haulers. Add a single sub-system slot. Into this slot you could place one of the following sub-systems:
Cargo Bay - this could give the hauler say a 40k m3 cargo bay
Ore Bay - this could replace the normal cargo bay with say an 60k m3 ore bay

A sub cap command and support ship ine the "Industrial Command Ships" class. Same size as the Orca but with no ore bay, a about 5k m3 cargo bay, same corp bay as the Orca and a larger maintainance bay, (maybe 800k m3, so you could fit an a BS and a few cruisers.) Allow one gank link, (low or no bonus,) and you've got a ship that you can load up and allow small fleets to swap and/or repair their ships on roams or just load up a bunch of fitted ships and drop them off in a station without having to fly them all to the location individually.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

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Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#2 - 2012-10-29 20:08:08 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
It seems a shame to train up skills like "ORE Industrial" and "Industrial Command Ships" when there is currently only one ship available for each skill, (not including the utterly redundant Primae.)

I would like to see a new ship or two available in these classes:

A semi-modular heavy hauler in the "ORE Industrial" class. A battlecruiser sized hauler with a bit more EHP than the normal haulers. Add a single sub-system slot. Into this slot you could place one of the following sub-systems:
Cargo Bay - this could give the hauler say a 40k m3 cargo bay
Ore Bay - this could replace the normal cargo bay with say an 60k m3 ore bay

A sub cap command and support ship ine the "Industrial Command Ships" class. Same size as the Orca but with no ore bay, a about 5k m3 cargo bay, same corp bay as the Orca and a larger maintainance bay, (maybe 800k m3, so you could fit an a BS and a few cruisers.) Allow one gank link, (low or no bonus,) and you've got a ship that you can load up and allow small fleets to swap and/or repair their ships on roams or just load up a bunch of fitted ships and drop them off in a station without having to fly them all to the location individually.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?


On your 3 parts:
1. More ships for these skills.
YES! I absolutely agree.

2. Modular Hauler
I've seen other people recommend "T3 Haulers/Harvester" but never really liked the idea. I do like your version. I'd say the ore Bay should be larger (let's say 4x the normal cargo bay as it's limited to Ore only).

3. Sub Cap Command ship.
I'd posted a similar idea. Make one or two more ships like the orca. But lose the ore bay, increase the maintenance bay, increase EHP a bit, but everything else is good (same(-ish) fittings, warefare link w/ no bonuses, etc)

+3
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#3 - 2012-10-30 20:34:55 UTC
Cheers

The modular hauler wasn't really intended as a "T3 wannabe". I was thinking literally just swapping the holds, offering a decent general cargo bay or a larger dedicated ore bay. Two ships, one hull. I dont think a massive ore bay would be balanced, it would detract too much from freighters. I also thought about adding something like a stealth module or armour module, (like the T2 haulers,) but then there would be no point to the ones in use.

As for the Sub Cap Command Ship, I thought it would be quite fitting. Given the close link between ORE and Mordu's, I dont think its a great leap to think that ORE would be willing to redevelop the Orca hull to suit military purposes as part of the payment to their Merc

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Pearl Canopus
#4 - 2012-11-05 19:48:51 UTC
In general I support this idea.

The ORE Industrial Skill-Path allows a huge amount of new ships or modules for different industrial activities.

In further way tech1 ships may be usable preferred to HiSec and tech2 and above with several "nice modules" for Low- and 0-sec.

A medium sized hauler is a must. To have an ore hauler would continue the started work with ore cargo bays on mining barges and exhumers. I would also like a more modular ship system, where the industrial path allows more and more modules for the same "base ship". This may touch a bit the tech3 idea.

The capacity of about 30-75m^3 is missing at the moment. There is no need for faction haulers of that size.

Noctis an Primae are still very specialized. Maybe a modular hauler can assist in dependence of builtin modules.
Specialized cargo modules for ore (75,000m^3). Specialized cargo for PI. Common cargo for misc items (35,000m^3).

But maybe the InterBus will give us some larger haulers and the need of "IB Industrial" skill. These ships are unarmed and have no slots at all. But they have a larger amount of cargo capacity. It can rising by skill level of abput 10%.

The ORE Industrial Skill may allow the ORE Capital Industrial. There I see station-like mobile production for nomads. A refining-bonus could be possible. "Wastecollectors" with onboard scrapmetal processing modules...

Here I seealso modules for compressing ore or nano-stacking minerals (more minerals per m^3). So more ore or minerals may fit a common faction hauler.

There may be "Mining Super Barges" with specialized cargo- and dronebays. It should not come in concurrence with a Rorqual because the Super Barge would be a Ore-Miner/Hauler (100,000m^3) without any gang-assistance module support and without a corp-hangar.


However. Many words no sense... I support the idea of following up an ORE Industrial Path in any way.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#5 - 2012-11-06 14:43:17 UTC
I like a lot of those idea's, though I'll draw the line at the super-miner... even if I did have an ORE-gasm...

Anyway, at the very least, it seems we do want more depth to the industrial ship skills.

Mining and mining support are throughly covered.
Mass salavaging is covered.
Cokebreaking and analyzing is covered by exploration frigs.
PI is supposedly covered by the Primae, but its naff. Then again, a normal hauler is fine or the job.

That leaves mid-scale hauling.
I would like to see a semi-static nomad vessel that acts a a portable base. Very cool, but would need to be limited in its abilities to prevent it being over powered.
I really want to be able to move larger amounts of fitted ships without the use of capitals.

Anyone got any other thoughts on the use for industrial ships? A niche not yet covered?

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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#6 - 2012-11-08 15:03:11 UTC
bump

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Pearl Canopus
#7 - 2012-11-09 10:53:08 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I like a lot of those idea's, though I'll draw the line at the super-miner...

When I introduce a "Super Mining Barge" I don't see more mining efficiency or revenue but much more resilience and independence in mining process for the "lone wolf lowsec/0-sec miners". Much more ore cargo or possibilities to reduce the needed cargo amount for instance by onboard ore processing (low grade). Super Barge Skills may slightly buff refining bonus or ability to use refining modules or additional drones or so on.
Mining Barge Skill rise (ore) cargo, Exhumers skill rise whatever it do and the ORE industrial and Ore Capital Industrial Skills may be needed on a average level too.

Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Anyway, at the very least, it seems we do want more depth to the industrial ship skills.

Fully agreed. :)

Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I would like to see a semi-static nomad vessel that acts a a portable base. Very cool, but would need to be limited in its abilities to prevent it being over powered.
I really want to be able to move larger amounts of fitted ships without the use of capitals.

Anyone got any other thoughts on the use for industrial ships? A niche not yet covered?

I support the "private capital vessels for nomadic lifestyle". :) I could fly my own POS with all my ships onboard. Modular system to build it but more like a Capital Tech3 ship than a POS.

Unfortunately I still have no closer view to the given possibilities in interacting.

But for instance the Thukkers may have redesigned ships for nomadic life futurally, though they are nomads for generations.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#8 - 2012-11-09 13:19:11 UTC
Pearl Canopus wrote:

When I introduce a "Super Mining Barge" I
don't see more mining efficiency or revenue
but much more resilience and
independence in mining process for the
"lone wolf lowsec/0-sec miners". Much
more ore cargo or possibilities to reduce
the needed cargo amount for instance by
onboard ore processing (low grade). Super
Barge Skills may slightly buff refining bonus
or ability to use refining modules or
additional drones or so on.
Mining Barge Skill rise (ore) cargo,
Exhumers skill rise whatever it do and the
ORE industrial and Ore Capital Industrial
Skills may be needed on a average level
too.

So, a massive Procurer then, with Rorqal bits stuck on AMD a mobile refinery...

I think that's just a hit too much autonomy. You can still use an orca, with an improved cloak, to get about and setup a ninja POS and mine what you need, refine it, send your stuff here and there, pack up and move on. Though you would really need a small group of combat pilots for backup and protection.

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Pearl Canopus
#9 - 2012-11-12 11:51:34 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

So, a massive Procurer then, with Rorqal bits stuck on AMD a mobile refinery...

Yes, I saw a huge Procurer. An autonomous system with either compressing ore refining onboard. Maybe modular.
The "super Barge" would have no gang link abilities or they will be modules, what nerf another featured modules or disable them.
What could work after balancing:
Modules:
- ore cargo
- station like refining service (10% efficiency per module * Skills)
- compressing
- crystal cargo
- station like repair service
- station like hangar
- drone bay module
- rig bays
- station like fitting possibilities (refit modules while not using them)
- common cargo
- gang links
- ...

The number of modules is limited, so you cannot use all of them.
I really see balancing issues there. But also I see chances for further "ORE Capital Industrials". Maybe several skills are needed, which will rise special module efficiency. This also could be skills from skill path. (Mining Barge rises ore cargo, shield and hull HP, ORE Industrial rises common cargo capacity, ORE Capital Industrial Command Ship rises efficiency of ganglink-modules...) Skills may be connected but not in path. If you have a usual skill used for other profession paths, a module may have higher bonus.

For "ORE Industrial" I see a midsize ore transport ship or a ship what have ability to transport ore/minerals in a compressed way. An ORE cargo ship would have a lower common cargo amount than the racial industrials but a higher capacity for ore and minerals. Effective this may be a value of 50k m^3 common cargo. The "ORE Industrial" skill could rise the common cargo space or the "compressing" amount. (No, ore won't be really compressed by industrial ships.)
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#10 - 2012-11-12 12:24:51 UTC
As I said, that's too much autonomy.

What your suggesting is basically the carebears deathstar. Mining isn't meant to be a pure solo career. It's a chain of tasks conducted as a group that makes the isk. Why have a rorqal supporting a mining gang if you can hair send out the 'mega mining death barge star'?

Plus, most of what you want, aside from being able to actually fly it and mine from it will be a achievable when the POS system gets done. You could setup a POS almost anywhere with the ability to do and look like anything, of CCP does it the way they said they want it.

As for the ORE hauler, 50k m3 is massive, more than the racial maxed out haulers. I would have said minimal cargo space and big ore hold, 500m3 and 70k m3 respectively. But then I've already suggested a modular hauler system for that.

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Pearl Canopus
#11 - 2012-11-15 13:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pearl Canopus
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
As for the ORE hauler, 50k m3 is massive, more than the racial maxed out haulers. I would have said minimal cargo space and big ore hold, 500m3 and 70k m3 respectively. But then I've already suggested a modular hauler system for that.

The modular hauler got already my support several days ago. :)

Maybe my "hauler suggestion" was not explained clearly enough. If a modular hauler would not be possible I could imagine the following:
ORE hauler (or Interbus hauler or whoevers hauler) with a smaller amount of common cargo but the ability to carry more ore/minerals than regularily would fit to the common cargo. So ore and minerals would be carried "virtually compressed".

So far it's an ore AND mineral cargo ship.

[EDIT]If I can carry about 30k m3 ore in a barge, there 50k to 75k m3 would be a nice to have for a hauler. 3 times a Retrievers of ore cargo.
If minerals could be transported in an equal way, it would be really nice. Also a worthy ship for beginenrs after the first one or two months as me. But I'd dislike an idea to have a specialized hauler for each cargo type.

If you take a pacifistic skill path with ORE Frigate, ORE Industrial, ... this could be much faster than skilling racial frigates, racial industrials and racial destroyers, racial cruisers...[/EDIT]
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2012-11-15 16:10:16 UTC
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a ship that can 'virtually compress' minerals/ore for transport. I just don't see CCP going for it. I think they would be more likely to go for a specialised ore hauler over a hauler with a new mechanic.

A Retriever can hold 27,500m3 of ore and a Mackinaw can hold 37,500m3. I suggest a total of 70,000m3 for transport by a 'specialised hauler', regardless of its origin. A standard cargohold of 12,500m3 using a ''virtual compression' ratio of 5.6:1 would provide the 70,000m3

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Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-11-16 02:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mohini
Hey, I didn't see this before i posted my thread but I completely agree with having another ship(s) using the ORE Industrial skill.

My suggestion was more focused on people using rorquals to haul when they are not specifically designed for hauling and the need for a specialized ore hauler.

I like your idea a lot. i think its important to have a small cargo bay in comparison to the Ore hold.

Heres my post if you want to take look for ideas.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172754&find=unread
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#14 - 2012-11-16 02:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Never mind, misread.
Pearl Canopus
#15 - 2012-11-16 11:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Pearl Canopus
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
A Retriever can hold 27,500m3 of ore and a Mackinaw can hold 37,500m3. I suggest a total of 70,000m3 for transport by a 'specialised hauler', regardless of its origin. A standard cargohold of 12,500m3 using a ''virtual compression' ratio of 5.6:1 would provide the 70,000m3
Well, I know that's not, what you will tell me... ;)
Let me take the "vitual compression" idea and push it forward. Only CCP will know, whether this way would be available for developement. Maybe yes, maybe no. :) I'd like and see advantages over a more traditional path.

I only know the Caldari Industrials Badger and Badger Mark II yet.
When I take 3 ORE haulers (not even ore haulers... ;)) so I imagine following:
Hauler Mk1 (ORE frigate IV, Racial Industrial I, ORE Industrial I)
- 3500 m3 common cargo hold, what can store about 10000m3 ore or 7000m3 minerals
Hauler Mk2 (ORE frigate IV, Racial Industrial I, ORE Industrial III)
- ndustrial skilled 6000m3 common cargo hold, what can store about 24000m3 ore or 12000m3 minerals
Hauler Mk3 (ORE frigate IV, Racial Industrial III, ORE Industrial V)
- Industrial skilled 12k m3 common cargo hold, what can store 60k m3 ore or 24k m3 minerals

The Racial Industrial skill may rise the size of common cargo hold by usually 5%, while the ORE Industrial skill rises the "compression rate". With Racial AND ORE Industrial you may reach the 70k or 75k ore capacity.
Mineral compression keeps 2:1 until there will be a skill to rise it. So a mining profession will be buffed by ore/mineral trading.


Focussing to plain ore haulers I'm completely with you. The highest level may be about 75k of specialized ore cargo bay.


Maybe a skill as "nano stacking" or "bulk materials compression" may come up, to improve load capabilities of racial haulers for more ore/mineral cargo.
Pearl Canopus
#16 - 2012-11-16 12:15:11 UTC
When I read the whol thread again, I see an option, what might be instantly available...

Specialized Cargo Containers
This would meet a bit of modularity, although I still support the modular idea at all.

A "standard ore container" may have a volume of 4k and a capacity of 7k ore.
A container can fit every racial hauler.

An ORE hauler may have outside slots to fit the containers without the need to store them inside a cargo bay.
An "Adapting" skill my be useful, because that's no "Anchoring". Then an ORE hauler would be more a tugboat.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#17 - 2012-11-16 13:24:36 UTC
You beat me to it. I was thinking of ore containers yesterday. I meant to write some stuff down but I didn't get around to it.

As it stands, it takes a lot less space to move minerals than ore. 33.3 m3 of veldspar yields up to 10 m3 of tritanium, a ratio of 3.33:1. If we could have a container that could carry ore at a ratio of 2.5:1 it would be easier to move large amounts of ore but it would still be easier to move minerals in the same space.

A giant storage container takes up 3,000 m3, but holds 3,900 m3, a ratio of 1.3:1. Ore bays seem to hold a lot more for their size than normal cargo bays. So if we could get a specialised ore container that could hold 7,500 m3 but takes up 3,000 m3, that would be awesome. Still easier to move minerals, so not over the top. Rorqal has a 40/20:1 compression ration so that's not even near.

As for a hauler that can fit container externally, (maybe have a ship specific mod for the job,) I say why not? Fit 2 or 3 low slots with specialised external storage mods and bang, multiple ore bays. Maybe have some normal external cargo pods too, as an option. Allow scan proofing to them, jobs a good'un.

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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#18 - 2012-11-18 19:45:47 UTC
bump

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Beta Miner
COBRA Logistics
#19 - 2012-11-20 00:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Miner
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Cargo Bay - this could give the hauler say a 40k m3 cargo bay
Ore Bay - this could replace the normal cargo bay with say an 60k m3 ore bay


You need THREE modules …

Tractor Array – able to slowly tow a single object (jet can/ship/pos module) in warp and through stargates (jumpbridges?). The mass of the object would be skill dependent and would not exceed the mass of the largest battleship so that there won’t be anyone moving an orca/freighter around without spending the SP the fly it.

AFK Cloaking? An afk cloaker has never ganked me. In fact a cloaker at his keybourd has never ganked me either.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#20 - 2012-11-20 06:13:09 UTC
Beta Miner wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Cargo Bay - this could give the hauler say a 40k m3 cargo bay
Ore Bay - this could replace the normal cargo bay with say an 60k m3 ore bay


You need THREE modules …

Tractor Array – able to slowly tow a single object (jet can/ship/pos module) in warp and through stargates (jumpbridges?). The mass of the object would be skill dependent and would not exceed the mass of the largest battleship so that there won’t be anyone moving an orca/freighter around without spending the SP the fly it.

Now this is a whole new mechanic your talking about. I deliberatly didn't want to put forward anything too radical so it would be easy to put out with the tech thats already there.

Your idea does have merit though. I have often wondered why tractor beams don't work on ships... Of course, hauling in this manner would be open to all sorts of piracy, involving bumping the container and the hauler away from each other and landing another hauler to take its place. Not bad.

Space tug...

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