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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

First post
Author
Harland White
Adventurer's Guild
#541 - 2012-11-18 18:38:23 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
is the long term goal having less redboxes but more powerfull ships like incursions and sleepers ?

I would really like that, it's a pain killing all these little things who loot nothing and have no chance killing us, and I don't even talk about thinking of salvaging these...

When you kill a sleeper frigate you don't have the impression of losing your time, cause this thing hurt, have lots of scamble, neut or web so it's real dangerous, but it does also loot not bad.
a nullsec frigate however... it may scramble and need to be killed quickly in this case, but you two shot it, and it loot nothing. so you only have the impression of losing your time.


Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


Awesome. I'm a L4 mission runner primarily and this sounds a lot more fun. I assume bounties on the ships are going to be higher since there will be fewer ships?

By their fruit you will recognize them.

Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#542 - 2012-11-18 18:53:36 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
If you seriously believe that NPC EWAR is being nerfed, I would love to see the link for that.

Was going to add another line to make it clear where I stand with my oppinion (think it was NPC normal or citadel torpedo...), but thought it would be apparent enough.

On a sidenote, as far as I know NPC jamming *is* dependant on the ship's sensor strength (Marauders?), so in an indirect way, it is getting nerfed by the new skill.

I can confirm boosting sensor strength greatly reduces the chance of being jammed by NPCs, despite the all-too common misconception to the contrary. Now if only NPC TD worked like player's TD.
Mund Richard
#543 - 2012-11-18 20:28:58 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Now if only NPC TD worked like player's TD.

And a few more random stuff...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#544 - 2012-11-19 11:04:18 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#545 - 2012-11-19 11:51:39 UTC
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#546 - 2012-11-19 11:56:28 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.

I hope you're considering increasing bounties and such to match.
The last thing we need is for PVE to become even more of a pain in the ass than it already is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#547 - 2012-11-19 12:03:22 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.

I hope you're considering increasing bounties and such to match.
The last thing we need is for PVE to become even more of a pain in the ass than it already is.


Yes. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#548 - 2012-11-19 12:12:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.

I hope you're considering increasing bounties and such to match.
The last thing we need is for PVE to become even more of a pain in the ass than it already is.

QFT

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#549 - 2012-11-19 14:34:59 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.

I'm not against the AI changes in themselves, but you seem to be implying that you want to remove a certain playstyle from the game. Instead of revamping the existing content to fit a new paradigm, why not add another Agent type and add new missions in the new style to those agents?
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#550 - 2012-11-19 15:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Irregessa
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


Then you will need to do more than merely alter the AI. NPCs today are immune to scram/warp disruption (yes, rats will warp away from you in belts), ECM and dampening (like the frigs that start targeting me from 150km away) and essentially immune to energy warfare (neuts/NOS). There are even some complex 'boss' NPCs that are immune to all EWAR. Unless CCP's definition of PvP is Red vs. Blue's, I don't see this being close to PvP.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#551 - 2012-11-19 15:22:33 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.


Are you remembering scram/point range.....? Shocked
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#552 - 2012-11-19 15:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.

I have a problem with this.

Not that I do not want to see the A.I. get more challenging. But a PVP fit does not work for running missions now. Making the A.I. more challenging will only make PVP fits less viable.

In PVP as soon as the odds are stacked against you you die. If you jump through a gate and there are 10 or more ships waiting for you what chance do you have? PVP fights are also over very quickly so you fit a buffer as you are usually dead before your active tank can repair anything. You Omni tank because other players will switch damage types to hit your weakest resists.

In PVE you are almost always up against large numbers of ships. All NPC's in that site or mission do the same damage types. If you tried to Omni tank you may die as you can not get omni resists high enough to mitigate enough damage without gimping your DPS. PVE fights last much longer so a Buffer tank will not last, you need an active tank to rep damage as it comes in.

To make PVE feel more like PVP by changing the A.I. of the rats, will not work unless all the PVE content is also reworked to make a PVP play style viable for PVE. These are two completely different types of content with completely different play styles used to play them. You can not just blurr these lines without causing massive imbalance in the game.

If I knew the specifics of how the NPC A.I. was done, How it chooses agro, How it is programed to attack. Basically how it all worked, it would be easy for me to adapt my play style to best fit and counter act it. But players do not have this information. We learn thru trial and error what works and what does not. A developer that is involved in making these changes will automatically know how to best counter the new NPC responses. Players will take much more time to adapt.

A dedicated mission runner who looses a multi billion isk ship due to the way missions play out being drastically changed. And having to learn all over again how to best run these missions will get very frustrated. The chances of these players rage quitting will be huge.

Especially after watching every thing they have taken sometimes years to accumulate in game, be blown away by new game mechanics. Some mission runners have put all the isk they have earned for years into dead space mods and fittings on their PVE mission runner ships. Loosing it all in a short amount of time because the developers decided to change the A.I. of the NPC's will not go over well.

What are they going to do. Spend the next several months relearning to play the game. Followed by a couple years of playing to get back the same level of stuff they lost? Make no mistake their are mission runners who spent years building up their very expensive mission running ships.

Seeing many months or even years worth of work vaporized by more intelligent NPC's, will just encourage them to work harder in game to rebuild their wealth? Or will they just quit and move onto another game? The number that will quit will be much higher than the number that will start over.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#553 - 2012-11-19 16:50:56 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.

I hope you're considering increasing bounties and such to match.
The last thing we need is for PVE to become even more of a pain in the ass than it already is.


Yes. :)


So when are you going to implement this grand experiment?
Let me guess, sometime before moon goon mining is addressed, but sometime after BC's and BS's go through Tiericide.

And as others have stated, your concept of "more enjoyable" varies dramatically from many, many players.
Do I WANT to go into missions in PvP boat with ANYTHING CLOSE to the risk I have when I did PvP?
Errrrrr....no.

Missions are for one thing, and one thing only: making money.
No one would do them for any other reason.
If people want the PvP experience, THEY WOULD FLIPPING PVP!!!!!!
And many people do. They grind the ISK in missions to afford PvP ships.

But CCP, with their infinite wisdom, have decided that PvE is bad, and everyone would be so much happier experiencing the PvP style of play all the time, even if it is against NPC's.

Where does this lead us to?
1. More risk in missions, leading to more boats getting blown up, leading to reduced ISK generation for mission runners.
2. People being forced to fleet up to run harder missions, leading to reduced ISK generation for mission runners.

Why can't you simply state the truth: CCP wants to hammer mission ISK, which is predominately high sec income, into the ground. Meantime, null sec belt rats are already small spawns of tougher ships, high end null sec plexes are already run in groups with specialized fits more like PvP (logis are a must in 10/10's), and of course, null sec moon goo income must never, ever be touched.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#554 - 2012-11-19 17:07:30 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So when are you going to implement this grand experiment?
Let me guess, sometime before moon goon mining is addressed, but sometime after BC's and BS's go through Tiericide.

And as others have stated, your concept of "more enjoyable" varies dramatically from many, many players.
Do I WANT to go into missions in PvP boat with ANYTHING CLOSE to the risk I have when I did PvP?
Errrrrr....no.

Missions are for one thing, and one thing only: making money.
No one would do them for any other reason.
If people want the PvP experience, THEY WOULD FLIPPING PVP!!!!!!
And many people do. They grind the ISK in missions to afford PvP ships.

But CCP, with their infinite wisdom, have decided that PvE is bad, and everyone would be so much happier experiencing the PvP style of play all the time, even if it is against NPC's.

Where does this lead us to?
1. More risk in missions, leading to more boats getting blown up, leading to reduced ISK generation for mission runners.
2. People being forced to fleet up to run harder missions, leading to reduced ISK generation for mission runners.

Why can't you simply state the truth: CCP wants to hammer mission ISK, which is predominately high sec income, into the ground. Meantime, null sec belt rats are already small spawns of tougher ships, high end null sec plexes are already run in groups with specialized fits more like PvP (logis are a must in 10/10's), and of course, null sec moon goo income must never, ever be touched.


The changes in Retribution to the NPC AI are affecting all NPC, the ones in null-sec and the ones in high-sec.
CCP Fozzie has recently made changes to moon-goo and knowing him probably won't stop.

The idea of creating missions that encourage players to bring fits that are more in line with PvP does not mean we are forcing those players to PvP because as you said, if they wanted to PvP they would. Anyways, since nothing has been decided for sure yet on what we will do with missions I am not going to say anything else on that.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#555 - 2012-11-19 17:12:33 UTC
So basically the changes to the A.I. are going live on Dec 4th, but the necessary changes to other elements of the game to make the new A.I. actually viable from a game play perspective will not be addressed until a future undetermined date.

Most likely not what you meant, but this is how it comes across.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#556 - 2012-11-19 17:23:12 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
[

The changes in Retribution to the NPC AI are affecting all NPC, the ones in null-sec and the ones in high-sec.
CCP Fozzie has recently made changes to moon-goo and knowing him probably won't stop.



Yes, the standard solo null sec ratter who uses heavy and light drones, and probably fighters, is doomed as well. That part is true.

But, tell me about the changes to moon goo mining, other than the add of alchemy, which had such an enormous impact on null sec income.
I am fascinated to hear about the changes that have been made to tech moons since the last time I logged on.

As for the changes to the AI affecting all NPC's, including null sec, I guess exempting plex structures from the AI because it made the null sec plexes too hard, was a complete figment in my imagination, and I did not read about that some 20 pages ago in this thread.

It is very hard for me to be nice and polite in responses to you when you keep treating us like idiots.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#557 - 2012-11-19 18:26:42 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
The idea of creating missions that encourage players to bring fits that are more in line with PvP does not mean we are forcing those players to PvP because as you said, if they wanted to PvP they would. Anyways, since nothing has been decided for sure yet on what we will do with missions I am not going to say anything else on that.

Could you perhaps share what the motivation is for making PVE more like PVP? That is of course apart from content like incursions and sleeper drones. I get that the idea is that the content should be more entertaining, but the idea of "if they wanted to PVP, they would so since they aren't we should make PVE more like PVP" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't do PVE because I don't PVP. I PVE to get money to spend on PVP.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#558 - 2012-11-19 18:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Exactly,
PVP is done for fun, for the challenge. PVE is done to make isk. If PVE was changed to the point where the isk made from it took to much effort it would break the game.

It costs a lot of isk to PVP in decent ships. Where does that isk come from? There is a small income from loot drops and will be a small income from bounties if the new bounty system works out well. But this is not and will never be enough to support a PVP career.

Most null sec PVPers use ratting and plexing to raise this much needed isk. It is a fact that even the most avid PVPer has little chance of survival if caught by a small gang while flying their PVE ship. So why do they not rat in a PVP ship? Because a PVP ship is no better suited for PVE than a PVE ship is suited for PVP.

Changing the game to make PVP and PVE similar enough to be able to use the same ship is a nice idea. But this would require a complete reworking of the entire game, not just making the NPC's "smarter". A large group of NPC's will tear apart a PVP ship just as quickly as a gate camp will. Buffer tank just does not work for PVE. Likewise a PVE ship caught by a small gang will not be near capable of handling the incoming DPS with its local tank. It just does not have enough buffer. Changing the NPC A.I. will throw a wrench into the current PVE balance. It will take a very long time to fix the damage this will do. And the game will suffer for that time. Likely even losing a large number of active subscriptions.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#559 - 2012-11-19 18:55:48 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Exactly,
PVP is done for fun, for the challenge. PVE is done to make isk. If PVE was changed to the point where the isk made from it took to much effort it would break the game.

It costs a lot of isk to PVP in decent ships. Where does that isk come from? There is a small income from loot drops and will be a small income from bounties if the new bounty system works out well. But this is not and will never be enough to support a PVP career.

Most null sec PVPers use ratting and plexing to raise this much needed isk. It is a fact that even the most avid PVPer has little chance of survival if caught by a small gang while flying their PVE ship. So why do they not rat in a PVP ship? Because a PVP ship is no better suited for PVE than a PVE ship is suited for PVP.

Changing the game to make PVP and PVE similar enough to be able to use the same ship is a nice idea. But this would require a complete reworking of the entire game, not just making the NPC's "smarter". A large group of NPC's will tear apart a PVP ship just as quickly as a gate camp will. Buffer tank just does not work for PVE. Likewise a PVE ship caught by a small gang will not be near capable of handling the incoming DPS with its local tank. It just does not have enough buffer. Changing the NPC A.I. will throw a wrench into the current PVE balance. It will take a very long time to fix the damage this will do. And the game will suffer for that time. Likely even losing a large number of active subscriptions.

This. Very much this.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#560 - 2012-11-19 23:46:06 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Singira wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


I assume this will mean more scramming NPC's?
It will hardly be more like PvP if they do not follow the first rule of PvP..


Actually I think something even better would be making it so that there is a need to scram the NPC and stop them from running.


Why not the other way around too?
Seems like a pretty one-sided approach to this, largely in favor of PvE security.
Are we moving towards a safer more pink EvE where everyone wins and PvP must only be done in large blobs with the consent of both parties?
If the aim is to make ratting more like PvP, the number of scramming NPC's really should increase.

Allso, any idea how long the "sig-radius AI" is going to be around for?
Are we talking weeks, months or years?

I am asking about the timeframe so I know if I should just wait it out, or if I should join one of the blobs to profit from the newfound safety in 0.0 ratting.