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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#1201 - 2012-11-09 18:25:28 UTC
Thanks Masterplan but it still does not answer how severe your sec hit will be, at the moment you get a whomp of a sec hit for killing someone who doesn't get to fire back, and they get killrights on you; you get a far less severe sec hit if they aggro back at you. Which will you get when you attack someone in low sec now, since it is front loaded?
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1202 - 2012-11-09 18:43:14 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gneeznow wrote:
If the sec hit is front loaded, does that mean each time I attack someone in low sec, I get the full -2% ~ sec hit (the one you get now for 'ganking' someone who doesn't fire back at you) instead of the roughly 10x smaller sec hit you get when they fire back at you?

Also with killirights, someone now gets killrights on you if you attack their SHIP in low sec?


Excellent question about the sec hits.... CCP needs to answer that....


The way this works is that for as long as you have a criminal/suspect timer, or are in a limited engagement, the system will remember which offenses you have been punished for. Once your criminal/suspect timer has cleared and you are no longer in any limited engagements, this record is cleared, and you will once again incur sec-status punishments.
The memory tracks who you've offended against, and the level of the offense (ship vs pod). Repeating an offense - ie attacking the same person, perhaps after your guns have reloaded or you've chased him to another location - will not incur a repeated sec-hit.

The history is also passed across jumps, so if you attack someone in one system (and suffer a sec hit), then jump through a gate and attack him again (as long as your timers haven't expired), then you'll be able to continue fighting the same target in a different without another sec hit.

Attacking a pod is a more severe offense than attacking a ship, so you'll still get two sec hits if you shoot his ship and then his pod.

Make sense?


So if i shoot someone once and they warp out in low sec, can i shoot them at the next spot i find them without gateguns?!?!?

hint: say yes

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1203 - 2012-11-09 18:48:34 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gneeznow wrote:
If the sec hit is front loaded, does that mean each time I attack someone in low sec, I get the full -2% ~ sec hit (the one you get now for 'ganking' someone who doesn't fire back at you) instead of the roughly 10x smaller sec hit you get when they fire back at you?

Also with killirights, someone now gets killrights on you if you attack their SHIP in low sec?


Excellent question about the sec hits.... CCP needs to answer that....


The way this works is that for as long as you have a criminal/suspect timer, or are in a limited engagement, the system will remember which offenses you have been punished for. Once your criminal/suspect timer has cleared and you are no longer in any limited engagements, this record is cleared, and you will once again incur sec-status punishments.
The memory tracks who you've offended against, and the level of the offense (ship vs pod). Repeating an offense - ie attacking the same person, perhaps after your guns have reloaded or you've chased him to another location - will not incur a repeated sec-hit.

The history is also passed across jumps, so if you attack someone in one system (and suffer a sec hit), then jump through a gate and attack him again (as long as your timers haven't expired), then you'll be able to continue fighting the same target in a different without another sec hit.

Attacking a pod is a more severe offense than attacking a ship, so you'll still get two sec hits if you shoot his ship and then his pod.

Make sense?


So if i shoot someone once and they warp out in low sec, can i shoot them at the next spot i find them without gateguns?!?!?

hint: say yes


That's exactly what is implied.... gate guns only fire when they see you commit an act that incurs a sec hit.... they will fire on you the first time you shoot at them, but if you leave grid... they will no longer shoot you. And since shooting them again won't incur any additional sec hits, they will leave you alone while you keep chasing and shooting.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1204 - 2012-11-09 19:21:23 UTC
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#1205 - 2012-11-09 19:44:38 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gneeznow wrote:
If the sec hit is front loaded, does that mean each time I attack someone in low sec, I get the full -2% ~ sec hit (the one you get now for 'ganking' someone who doesn't fire back at you) instead of the roughly 10x smaller sec hit you get when they fire back at you?

Also with killirights, someone now gets killrights on you if you attack their SHIP in low sec?


Excellent question about the sec hits.... CCP needs to answer that....


The way this works is that for as long as you have a criminal/suspect timer, or are in a limited engagement, the system will remember which offenses you have been punished for. Once your criminal/suspect timer has cleared and you are no longer in any limited engagements, this record is cleared, and you will once again incur sec-status punishments.
The memory tracks who you've offended against, and the level of the offense (ship vs pod). Repeating an offense - ie attacking the same person, perhaps after your guns have reloaded or you've chased him to another location - will not incur a repeated sec-hit.

The history is also passed across jumps, so if you attack someone in one system (and suffer a sec hit), then jump through a gate and attack him again (as long as your timers haven't expired), then you'll be able to continue fighting the same target in a different without another sec hit.

Attacking a pod is a more severe offense than attacking a ship, so you'll still get two sec hits if you shoot his ship and then his pod.

Make sense?


It makes sense, but you really didn't answer the question. What people are trying to find out is WHAT the sec hit will be, not how the sec hits will be counted. From what I (and many) understand is the hit to ones security status will happen as soon as an engagement starts (front loaded?) so since that security hit was previously calculated by how the two parties reacted during the fight (did the victim shoot back?) then if the hit is now front loaded HOW is that calculated? Is there no longer any difference in sec status loss if the victim shoots back or not?
Mal journ
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1206 - 2012-11-12 21:33:03 UTC
ok i need some clarification, lets assume this scenario,

I am mining, I kill npc belt rats in defense, Am I now a target for attack from players in system?

what am I going to need to worry about form this change.

I know I'm looking forward to the can flippers ...lol
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1207 - 2012-11-12 23:36:10 UTC
Mal journ wrote:
ok i need some clarification, lets assume this scenario,

I am mining, I kill npc belt rats in defense, Am I now a target for attack from players in system?

what am I going to need to worry about form this change.

I know I'm looking forward to the can flippers ...lol

No, they get no additional rights to shoot you after you shoot NPCs. But if after shooting an NPC you log out in space, your ship will e-warp then sit there for a long time. During that time someone could scan you out and suicide gank you, and you would not know it happened until you logged back in. But its still a suicide gank. You are hardly more vulnerable than if you were logged in and sitting in the belt.

After you get can flipped, type "Flipper in belt xx-##" into local, get popcorn and watch.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1208 - 2012-11-13 15:33:03 UTC
Any public effect for carrying illegal cargo in empire space?
Natalya Bondarenko
The Salvation Army.
#1209 - 2012-11-13 21:31:32 UTC
I am not certain if this issue has been addressed yet. Assume I am running a mission, and have engaged NPC's. This will give me an NPC flag with its own timer. Now, in the middle of the mission, I get the dreaded "socket closed" message and the game goes down. Because of the flag, my ship stays in space till the timer expires.. and as the game crashed, I can do nothing to prevent the rest of the NPC's from blowing up my shiny mission ship. Will we be able to successfully petition a return of our ships when this frequent event (the "socket closed" ) occurs?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1210 - 2012-11-13 22:32:23 UTC
Natalya Bondarenko wrote:
I am not certain if this issue has been addressed yet. Assume I am running a mission, and have engaged NPC's. This will give me an NPC flag with its own timer. Now, in the middle of the mission, I get the dreaded "socket closed" message and the game goes down. Because of the flag, my ship stays in space till the timer expires.. and as the game crashed, I can do nothing to prevent the rest of the NPC's from blowing up my shiny mission ship. Will we be able to successfully petition a return of our ships when this frequent event (the "socket closed" ) occurs?


I'm sorry to inform you, but under the above scenario, you will NOT be reimbursed for your ship loss.

Please note, however, that unless an NPC is currently scrambling it, your ship will emergency warp out of the mission when the server recognizes you DC'd. As such, you have many options:

A.) Kill the scramblers first so you can ewarp if you dc.
B.) Fly a passive tanked ship that can sustain several minutes worth of NPC dps.
C.) Fly with friends. The new NPC AI will switch targets to your friends when you quit shooting and you do.

Even now, you have a two minute NPC timer, and how often does your ship get destroyed when you dc? The increased timer won't really change much...
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1211 - 2012-11-14 11:26:26 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

***
lol. there will be some fun with the usual CCP loopholes. and this game will become even more shittyer.
Aedh Erastos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1212 - 2012-11-17 04:03:11 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?



Please do this. Honestly. This is the easiest way I've ever heard to kill an entire incursion fleet, entirely without them having any say in it. They either have a guaranteed loss of at least one ship (or up to 8, just gcc 8 ships with a destroyer), or they have to risk my talos backup coming in and cleaning up the logis. It works for other things too. If you can force a flag onto someone that prevents them from getting assisted without penalty, you've created an entirely new piracy career. This would even make up for the rest of this crimewatch stuff.
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#1213 - 2012-11-18 15:34:07 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Any public effect for carrying illegal cargo in empire space?
Why? Got anything to say about that?
(Hint: click link in my signature if you do.)

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1214 - 2012-11-19 02:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
A few questions:

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
What was the rationale behind the 15 min logout timer for NPC aggression?



Went several pages (although not all 60) and I didn't see the answer to this one. So a gate rat shoots you and dc then you can be scanned down and killed for 15 minutes? IMO seems like the devs are making this game more reliant on a good connection that skill/knowledge.

eidt: they are lowering it to 5 minutes but there is no explanation why npcs would cause you to remain in space and scannable.

Also what is the point of the following change:

"• After losing a ship and entering a capsule, players will still be restricted from docking/jumping for up to a minute (if they have an active Weapons flag)."

What is the point of making us warp around longer in a pod?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1215 - 2012-11-19 17:42:47 UTC
Cearain wrote:
A few questions:

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
What was the rationale behind the 15 min logout timer for NPC aggression?



Went several pages (although not all 60) and I didn't see the answer to this one. So a gate rat shoots you and dc then you can be scanned down and killed for 15 minutes? IMO seems like the devs are making this game more reliant on a good connection that skill/knowledge.

eidt: they are lowering it to 5 minutes but there is no explanation why npcs would cause you to remain in space and scannable.

Also what is the point of the following change:

"• After losing a ship and entering a capsule, players will still be restricted from docking/jumping for up to a minute (if they have an active Weapons flag)."

What is the point of making us warp around longer in a pod?



1.) In regards to the NPC Timer:
The biggest reason for the NPC timer change is to prevent people from logging out to avoid a fight. A very common tactic used by ratters and miners is to ctrl-q anytime a hostile enter's system. Since sixty seconds is NOT enough time for an enemy to hunt you down and gank you, it's a surefire way to save your ratting carrier if it happens to be scrammed by an NPC when that hostile enters system. To be frank, logging out should NOT be a tool to "get safe" from hostiles.... When they lowered it to 5 minutes, they also made another major change: You can gain an indefinitely extendable PvP timer if someone shoots your ship before it despawns. This is a wonderful change, although the despawn timer could use some tweaking. Here's a long explanation of it.

2.) The session change timer (which controlled your ability to dock, jump, change ship) is currently 10 seconds... It used to be 30 seconds. A 60 second timer won't be a big deal... The reason for the change probably has something to do with maintaining PvP timers through a session change. Otherwise, you could clear your PvP timer anytime you traverse a WH.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1216 - 2012-11-19 17:43:40 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Masterplan:

There are still several key points brought up in this thread that should be addressed:

1.) Reducing the unflagged despawn timer from 60 seconds to about 15 seconds. 60 seconds is enough time to scan down a ship and aggress them, giving them a PvP flag and allowing everyone to gank them. A major caveat to this, the despawn timer should NOT start until your ship attempts it's emergency warp. Otherwise capital ships can despawn in warp. Link to a thorough post on it.

2.) The "Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag" comment is wonderful, but extremely problematic. Example 1: I can warp a noobship into an incursion and GCC it on a BS (ideally one with sleeper aggro). This will give that BS a PvP flag, leaving his OOC logies in a difficult position: Rep that BS and gain a suspect flag (opening them up to a gank), or let it die. Example 2: Imagine a freighter with a logi escort. When suicide ganking the freighter, the logi's are in a conundrum: If they rep the freighter, they go suspect meaning my backup can gank them. Have you thought about changing it from PvP flag to a weapons flag?

3.) The "Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)" generates untouchable logistics ships. Essentially, if Pilot A attacks a suspect B, it reads like Pilot A can have his corp mates come rep him.... and really sounds like Suspect B will NOT gain any permissions to legally attack those logis. Am I missing something, or is this how you intend it?

***
lol. there will be some fun with the usual CCP loopholes. and this game will become even more shittyer.


Yeah... I foresee massive tears if the following loopholes are not addressed prior to release...
Kristopher Rocancourt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1217 - 2012-11-19 20:30:54 UTC
Crimewatch is the douchiest , carebear coddling bunch of ass banditry i ever heard of.

Way to nuke the legit Ninja profession into nothingness.

http://killalliance.co.uk/tears/tears-holeysheet/

Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
#1218 - 2012-11-20 13:21:07 UTC
Some of the rules for ECM burst are a little harsh.

Breaking the locks of a ship which has no offensive/defence capabilities such as POD can not affect combat or even navigation.

ECM burst on POD / SHUTTLE / FREIGHTER should have no legal consequence.

In fact I would go as far as to make the aggresive act the act of breaking locks rather than hitting ships if not too lag inducing.
Also give shuttles/pods/freighters 0 max targets :P
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1219 - 2012-11-20 16:07:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
A few questions:

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
What was the rationale behind the 15 min logout timer for NPC aggression?



Went several pages (although not all 60) and I didn't see the answer to this one. So a gate rat shoots you and dc then you can be scanned down and killed for 15 minutes? IMO seems like the devs are making this game more reliant on a good connection that skill/knowledge.

eidt: they are lowering it to 5 minutes but there is no explanation why npcs would cause you to remain in space and scannable.

Also what is the point of the following change:

"• After losing a ship and entering a capsule, players will still be restricted from docking/jumping for up to a minute (if they have an active Weapons flag)."

What is the point of making us warp around longer in a pod?



1.) In regards to the NPC Timer:
The biggest reason for the NPC timer change is to prevent people from logging out to avoid a fight. A very common tactic used by ratters and miners is to ctrl-q anytime a hostile enter's system. Since sixty seconds is NOT enough time for an enemy to hunt you down and gank you, it's a surefire way to save your ratting carrier if it happens to be scrammed by an NPC when that hostile enters system. To be frank, logging out should NOT be a tool to "get safe" from hostiles.... When they lowered it to 5 minutes, they also made another major change: You can gain an indefinitely extendable PvP timer if someone shoots your ship before it despawns. This is a wonderful change, although the despawn timer could use some tweaking. Here's a long explanation of it.
[/quote]



The concern is if you are scrammed by an npc and you see someone come into local that you will log off. I am sorry but this is pretty weak. Rarely do rats scram anyone and rarely do pvers allow rats to keep them scrammed when they do. 99.9% of the time the rat aggro comes from something other than a scram.

On the flip side if I disconnect due to a bad internet connection then my ship and pod will be a sitting in space for five minutes. Does CCP believe that internet providers are now so wonderfull that no one ever loses their connection anymore? This is imbalanced toward making eve depend more on your internet connection than your knowledge or skill at the game.

Plus 15 minutes from the time of a pvp fight? Wouldn't five minutes do? I mean how bad with a scanner does the enemy need to be that they can't find you in 5 minutes?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


2.) The session change timer (which controlled your ability to dock, jump, change ship) is currently 10 seconds... It used to be 30 seconds. A 60 second timer won't be a big deal... The reason for the change probably has something to do with maintaining PvP timers through a session change. Otherwise, you could clear your PvP timer anytime you traverse a WH.



I need to go to a wormhole to get my pod out of system or docked? This doesn't make any sense.

I don't understand what you mean with maintaining pvp timers through a sessions change. If you are in a pod you won't be attacking anyone.

I would like to know why ccp is making this change. It seems like they just want to arbitrarilly change the rules so people will lose a bunch of pods at gates and stations.

Most of the changes are nice. But why do they need to sprinkle in these bad changes?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
None ofthe Above
#1220 - 2012-11-20 17:54:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Most of the changes are nice. But why do they need to sprinkle in these bad changes?


That's the CCP way. When have they not done that?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.