These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ginger Achura
Doomheim
#481 - 2012-11-02 18:39:42 UTC
I love where this thread is headed at the moment...

Lol

"For hundreds of years my community has enjoyed cheddar cheese and pineapple on a stick" - William Ulsterman
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#482 - 2012-11-02 19:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Jet Lazuli wrote:
I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM?



No... No... No no no no no no no



No




NO!


and Why.... why...Why why why why why why why


Why




1. the Kestrel model is fine, it looks great.

2. The ships were intentionally made to look different.. the SB's are supposed to be a bit more badass.


WHY?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#483 - 2012-11-06 16:02:42 UTC
I am wondering if theoretically a few Tristan's in a gang could utilize sentry drones effectively. I have always been fascinated with the concept of a sniping ship that relies specifically on sentry drones to be effective. Though I am not sure if it would be viable for the Tristan due to its ability to only field one drone. Theory crafter's is this just a pipe dream for the Tristan?
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#484 - 2012-11-11 00:42:13 UTC
after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#485 - 2012-11-11 02:07:26 UTC
serras bang wrote:
after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far.


A 10% bonus is a bit strong especially for T1 but they keep giving them out to missile ships anyway.... doesn't help that missiles range is OP to begin with they will need a serious range nerf in order to use TE/TC's.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#486 - 2012-11-11 11:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: serras bang
Harvey James wrote:
serras bang wrote:
after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far.


A 10% bonus is a bit strong especially for T1 but they keep giving them out to missile ships anyway.... doesn't help that missiles range is OP to begin with they will need a serious range nerf in order to use TE/TC's.


hml aint op there only going about 90 someone said (havent tested myself will do soon though) but yeah light missles and ive always said it (even with fighting the initial nerf) shouldnt be going 70 on a sniper ship why they increased the range on light missles in the first place i had no idea a 50km snipping frig was just fine. but the fact that caldari ships will all use te/tc isnt that big of a deal as we will still need some resemblance of shield. and its not like the missle dps out ranks guns any time soon.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#487 - 2012-11-11 14:00:46 UTC
serras bang wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
serras bang wrote:
after having a play around with the kestral i am more positive than ever it need to lose its velocity bonus simple put its slinging missles to far.


A 10% bonus is a bit strong especially for T1 but they keep giving them out to missile ships anyway.... doesn't help that missiles range is OP to begin with they will need a serious range nerf in order to use TE/TC's.


hml aint op there only going about 90 someone said (havent tested myself will do soon though) but yeah light missles and ive always said it (even with fighting the initial nerf) shouldnt be going 70 on a sniper ship why they increased the range on light missles in the first place i had no idea a 50km snipping frig was just fine. but the fact that caldari ships will all use te/tc isnt that big of a deal as we will still need some resemblance of shield. and its not like the missle dps out ranks guns any time soon.


90 is about 35km more than most guns can hope to get near..... then add a TE/TC bonus maybe 20% extra you see were im going with this?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2012-11-11 22:03:40 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
I am wondering if theoretically a few Tristan's in a gang could utilize sentry drones effectively. I have always been fascinated with the concept of a sniping ship that relies specifically on sentry drones to be effective. Though I am not sure if it would be viable for the Tristan due to its ability to only field one drone. Theory crafter's is this just a pipe dream for the Tristan?


In theory, perhaps. In practice, not really.

Then again, "sniper" may take on a slightly different meaning with respect to frigates.

As for a sniper sentry layout - tricky but doable at "sniper" type ranges. A domi can push out over 550 DPS with wardens at over 130km range (over 190km double-falloff) and higher with other sentries at closer ranges (bouncers = over 640 DPS at over 100km w/42km single falloff... ~188km max "love tap" range).

So a sniper type sentry layout is doable but at the frigate size? To control a sentry, you need to be able to target the ship -AND- have a drone control range capable of reaching that far. Not an easy composite for a frigate to pull off.

Interesting concept through and if you change the definition of "sniper" to the roughly 50km range, it could be accomplished. Just don't expect stellar numbers from it like you can get packing Drone Damage mods in the lows of a domi. They make a healthy difference in damage output.
Oraac Ensor
#489 - 2012-11-12 16:57:21 UTC
Will the Tristan hull redesign glimpsed at Fanfest be introduced in Retribution?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#490 - 2012-11-13 01:33:56 UTC
Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great.
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#491 - 2012-11-13 05:57:59 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great.


Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly).

I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming.

With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too.
The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming.
Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones).

Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting.

Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur.
It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :)
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#492 - 2012-11-13 08:13:17 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great.


Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly).

I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming.

With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too.
The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming.
Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones).

Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting.

Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur.
It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :)


Not saying I disagree with some of your opinions on your post, but I wanted to point out that "Tiers" are going away for "roles". So the thought of needing more skills just to fly it, or its fitting being worse because of its tier are supposedly going by the wayside. Time to deprogram ourselves of that notion. Smile

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#493 - 2012-11-13 09:35:30 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Messed with tristans, found them to be lacking in powergrid, tank, speed and useful bonuses. I must be missing something here, everyone seems to think it's going to be really great.


Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly).

I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming.

With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too.
The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming.
Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones).

Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting.

Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur.
It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :)


It has three low slots, meh fittings and no tank bonus

That is a bad tank.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#494 - 2012-11-13 10:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sog Ardun
Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Not saying I disagree with some of your opinions on your post, but I wanted to point out that "Tiers" are going away for "roles". So the thought of needing more skills just to fly it, or its fitting being worse because of its tier are supposedly going by the wayside. Time to deprogram ourselves of that notion. Smile


The fact that they are going for roles (and a differenciation between combat and attack) does not change the fact that there are tech 1 frigates and tech 2 frigates.

It is also relevant to notice that you can fly an incursus a lot easier than a tristan with low SP (which is not an issue since the incursus does the job well enough and you can still use a catalyst too) which has nothing to do about their roles but about the fact that guns are faster to level than drones. It was much more an observation than a judgement on that end.

The fitting on the tristan is indeed ridiculously tight, just like the new destroyer though, to be honest, some tech 1 ships are balanced using this and generally speaking tech 2 ships have more PG/CPU. Again, just an observation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a buff to the fitting, I just feel like as the best drone frig (and only real tech 1 one) it is ok to have some limitations to your fitting.


As I said if you want a tank on a Tristan, you have to sacrifice your guns. The gank is more important than the tank for this kind of ship anyway.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#495 - 2012-11-13 19:25:33 UTC
Come on CCP, 50% rep bonus + more powergrid.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#496 - 2012-11-13 20:33:52 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Come on CCP, 50% rep bonus + more powergrid.


would be boss.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#497 - 2012-11-13 21:58:03 UTC
1/ The incursus already have a rep bonus. Giving a rep bonus on both gallente ships would be poor design IMO (especially since the Tristan is supposed to have more a focus on firepower than the incursus).

2/ DDAs are too strong on this frigate to go for armor active tanking anyway. Going for a shield active tanking only works if you forgo tackling modules and stay at range but then again I'm not sure using an active tank makes much sense in that situation and the first point still stands.

Seriously though, why do you guys think this hull need a tanking bonus?

2 DDAs and your hobs II can do up to 146DPS with a max range of 60km.
Isn't that enough to make up for having poor tanking options and make you want to fit a frigate around this obvious strength?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#498 - 2012-11-13 22:38:52 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
1/ The incursus already have a rep bonus. Giving a rep bonus on both gallente ships would be poor design IMO (especially since the Tristan is supposed to have more a focus on firepower than the incursus).

2/ DDAs are too strong on this frigate to go for armor active tanking anyway. Going for a shield active tanking only works if you forgo tackling modules and stay at range but then again I'm not sure using an active tank makes much sense in that situation and the first point still stands.

Seriously though, why do you guys think this hull need a tanking bonus?

2 DDAs and your hobs II can do up to 146DPS with a max range of 60km.
Isn't that enough to make up for having poor tanking options and make you want to fit a frigate around this obvious strength?



Active shield tanking is invalid because I require all three mids for prop and tackle before I even consider fitting for short range, which is the only range I'd fit a tristan for because of the obvious problems drones have against moving targets.

DDAs are bad on pretty much all drone ships except guristas. 3 lows is not enough for damage mods and a tank. It's not even enough for a tank imo when you have no bonus. 1 DDA is overly fragile. 2 DDAs is just plain ********. You do all this and it's not even good at doing damage. I'm kind of past the point where 'oh my god drones are so cool!' makes up for it having ****-poor actual damage and stuff compared to everything else and having to dock up to buy more drones after every fight because people pop them for fun.
Basically I'd like it to have a rep bonus because the incursus is badass and I want another overpowered frigate with a slightly different flavour, lol. Drone damage or something would also be acceptable, just anything other than turret tracking for 2 very low-PG turrets. It seems to me that they've been very careful not to give it decent speed or sig or fitting or slots for some reason, like it's at risk of being overpowered, when really it's not even good.
Sog Ardun
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#499 - 2012-11-14 00:23:24 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:

Active shield tanking is invalid because I require all three mids for prop and tackle before I even consider fitting for short range, which is the only range I'd fit a tristan for because of the obvious problems drones have against moving targets.

DDAs are bad on pretty much all drone ships except guristas. 3 lows is not enough for damage mods and a tank. It's not even enough for a tank imo when you have no bonus. 1 DDA is overly fragile. 2 DDAs is just plain ********. You do all this and it's not even good at doing damage. I'm kind of past the point where 'oh my god drones are so cool!' makes up for it having ****-poor actual damage and stuff compared to everything else and having to dock up to buy more drones after every fight because people pop them for fun.
Basically I'd like it to have a rep bonus because the incursus is badass and I want another overpowered frigate with a slightly different flavour, lol. Drone damage or something would also be acceptable, just anything other than turret tracking for 2 very low-PG turrets. It seems to me that they've been very careful not to give it decent speed or sig or fitting or slots for some reason, like it's at risk of being overpowered, when really it's not even good.


Firstly, thanks for the honest reply.
It seems obvious to me that the main point of disagreement we have is about the role the Tristan is supposed to be used as.

IMO, the Tristan is supposed to be the Gallente DPS frig using our faction preferred weapon system : drones. Drones clearly have issues and their damage application depends on a lot more variables than any other weapon systems. Regardless, all the drone issues (especially for PvP) should not be corrected by the Tristan hull but by fixing some of those broken mechanisms.

You seem to want to use Tristan as a brawler (a role an Incursus fulfill perfectly indeed). It is your right but I really don't think CCP intends to make the Tristan as effective as an Incursus in that role and that they actually should. They are several ways to apply damage as a frigate and brawling is just one of them.

Personnaly, I don't see the incursus and the Tristan thrive in the same situations. While the incursus is excellent for solo-PvP for example, I really don't think the tristan will thrive in this situation but I could be wrong (basically kite him and kill the drones first and you can be sure he won't kill you). On the other hand, the Tristan will be effective for PvE and small fleets IMO.
Since every faction has two frigates designed for combat, they should thrive in different situations IMO so that's alright.

The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull.
I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.

Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#500 - 2012-11-14 10:11:28 UTC
Sog Ardun wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

Active shield tanking is invalid because I require all three mids for prop and tackle before I even consider fitting for short range, which is the only range I'd fit a tristan for because of the obvious problems drones have against moving targets.

DDAs are bad on pretty much all drone ships except guristas. 3 lows is not enough for damage mods and a tank. It's not even enough for a tank imo when you have no bonus. 1 DDA is overly fragile. 2 DDAs is just plain ********. You do all this and it's not even good at doing damage. I'm kind of past the point where 'oh my god drones are so cool!' makes up for it having ****-poor actual damage and stuff compared to everything else and having to dock up to buy more drones after every fight because people pop them for fun.
Basically I'd like it to have a rep bonus because the incursus is badass and I want another overpowered frigate with a slightly different flavour, lol. Drone damage or something would also be acceptable, just anything other than turret tracking for 2 very low-PG turrets. It seems to me that they've been very careful not to give it decent speed or sig or fitting or slots for some reason, like it's at risk of being overpowered, when really it's not even good.


Firstly, thanks for the honest reply.
It seems obvious to me that the main point of disagreement we have is about the role the Tristan is supposed to be used as.

IMO, the Tristan is supposed to be the Gallente DPS frig using our faction preferred weapon system : drones. Drones clearly have issues and their damage application depends on a lot more variables than any other weapon systems. Regardless, all the drone issues (especially for PvP) should not be corrected by the Tristan hull but by fixing some of those broken mechanisms.

You seem to want to use Tristan as a brawler (a role an Incursus fulfill perfectly indeed). It is your right but I really don't think CCP intends to make the Tristan as effective as an Incursus in that role and that they actually should. They are several ways to apply damage as a frigate and brawling is just one of them.

Personnaly, I don't see the incursus and the Tristan thrive in the same situations. While the incursus is excellent for solo-PvP for example, I really don't think the tristan will thrive in this situation but I could be wrong (basically kite him and kill the drones first and you can be sure he won't kill you). On the other hand, the Tristan will be effective for PvE and small fleets IMO.
Since every faction has two frigates designed for combat, they should thrive in different situations IMO so that's alright.

The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull.
I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.

Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus.


Kiting with just drones doesn't work well.. The drones die.. fast..I think i could live with the Tristan having 4 lows and some more fittings.. But i would like it even better if it got a tanking bonus.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish