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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#461 - 2012-11-09 15:32:31 UTC
So Fox Four, you are pushing forward with broken code.

What a surprise.
I can't imagine the last time this happened....wait.

So drone boats get a reprieve, at least for a short period.
On Dec 4th, we just take a hit in our income generation while we have to sacrifice a T1 drone or do a release/get aggro/call back/release dance with our drones for the 1st wave, and of course subsequent spawns. But you still are forging ahead planning on trashing drones as a PvE platform. When you do fix that issue where the AI will go after drones at any time, it is game over for them.

It was also so nice to see you saved the poor null sec pilots by altering the code so they can maintain their current tactics for running high end plexes. We must never, ever impact null sec income, right?

And I would love to see you list the pros and cons of this new AI, as others have also asked.
A precise list. Not some nebulous "it will make shooting NPC's more enjoyable".
I would like to see what you envision the direct impact will be on players, and what is a pro, and what is a con.

Not that you will, or can provide such a list. Even if you were willing to try, I am sure your bosses will not allow you to.

Oh, and one last thing...are you guys truly serious, that you have now moved off Duality for testing, and forcing us to do this crap all over again on Buckingham. Wow....just wow.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#462 - 2012-11-09 15:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Yes, it seems the only changes these 'improvements' will bring is to make piracy an even less viable career and to make it easier for people to rat belts in null. I wonder if these changes were made because of all the carebears whining about AFK cloaks.

To be honest, I've only been playing the game a few months and if these changes are designed to make the game easier for new players and improve their new player retention rate, they're going about it the wrong way. I don't play EvE because I want to play something easy or carebear-friendly. I play EvE because I was sick of how much PvP sucked in WoW and when I played this game, I saw how it did everything right that WoW was doing wrong. I was really impressed by that, but I'm gradually starting to become disillusioned.

The only way I can see these AI changes being an improvement, is if CONCORD are removed from high-sec. Now gankers can open fire freely on mission runners, but have to tank NPC rats as part of the deal. Under these circumstances, perhaps the changes would be a good idea.

Oh god.
Rengerel en Distel
#463 - 2012-11-09 16:13:27 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Capqu wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

  • As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ..

    • What a joke.

    Pushing something you know is broken with the promise of a future update; software development at it's finest. Plus, forgive me if I'm wrong but CCP's track record pretty much guarentees once it's live it's not getting fixed for years.

    Why are you updating the game with something purely negative, with the intent of fixing it later? Why not just not update the game? I thought you guys were better than this. I guess it's time to realise CCP are just another company that deliberately push patches they know were broken because a deadline arrived. Pretty pathetic.


    Because we believe that this change is an improvement. The changes we want to make to the AI after Retribution are changes that will effect Incursion and Sleeper NPC as well. We don't deem them to be defects, just changes for the better. The fact that they also change Sleeper and Incursion AI is why we are waiting until after Retribution.

    The thing we consider to be a defect is the switching to drones once and not again which due to the fact that it makes it easier for players to fight NPC made it a lower priority to fix over other defects that affect players negatively, rather than positively.


    Are you not worried that the npc switch defect will lead to a bit more of an isk faucet in WHs and incursions since you can simply recall then relaunch your drones to make them immune? I realize drone boats aren't the most ideal in either circumstance anyways, but totally safe drone boats might close the gap, while making pvp harder on anyone coming to tackle them.

    With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
    CCP FoxFour
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #464 - 2012-11-09 16:25:34 UTC
    Rengerel en Distel wrote:
    Are you not worried that the npc switch defect will lead to a bit more of an isk faucet in WHs and incursions since you can simply recall then relaunch your drones to make them immune? I realize drone boats aren't the most ideal in either circumstance anyways, but totally safe drone boats might close the gap, while making pvp harder on anyone coming to tackle them.



    And this is primarily why we are not so worried about this is because this "defect" is something that has been around since Sleepers were introduced. If you can find the right combination it would happen with Sleepers as well.

    So no, not worried about WH's.

    @CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

    Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #465 - 2012-11-09 16:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
    Capqu wrote:
    CCP FoxFour wrote:
    Capqu wrote:
    CCP FoxFour wrote:

  • As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ..

    • What a joke.

    Pushing something you know is broken with the promise of a future update; software development at it's finest. Plus, forgive me if I'm wrong but CCP's track record pretty much guarentees once it's live it's not getting fixed for years.

    Why are you updating the game with something purely negative, with the intent of fixing it later? Why not just not update the game? I thought you guys were better than this. I guess it's time to realise CCP are just another company that deliberately push patches they know were broken because a deadline arrived. Pretty pathetic.


    Because we believe that this change is an improvement. The changes we want to make to the AI after Retribution are changes that will effect Incursion and Sleeper NPC as well. We don't deem them to be defects, just changes for the better. The fact that they also change Sleeper and Incursion AI is why we are waiting until after Retribution.

    The thing we consider to be a defect is the switching to drones once and not again which due to the fact that it makes it easier for players to fight NPC made it a lower priority to fix over other defects that affect players negatively, rather than positively.


    If you could make an unbiased comparison of all the things this improves versus all the things it destroys, can you honestly say it positively affects the game as a whole? If so, I would be very interested in a post from you outlining the positives and the negatives and why you think it's an acceptable update.

    It's my opinion that you are too invested in this update to make these decisions. Thanks for the response, but it's not exactly

    constructive.


    Capqu, I think it is painfully apparent to everyone in this thread that you have your self interest blinders on and are uable to post objectively on the subject. Time for you to step away until you can look at something other than the bits you are fixated on.
    Stop being a tool.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Vatek
    Rents Due Crew
    #466 - 2012-11-09 16:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
    Why are you pushing broken code to meet a deadline instead of delaying it for a post-Retribution patch and doing it properly? If recalling a flight of drones breaks the entire AI, what is the point of pushing this to TQ?

    I am happy to see that PVP concerns are finally being addressed, but what is the timeline for post-Retribution changes? A week? A month? 6 months?
    Antoine Jordan
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #467 - 2012-11-09 16:46:30 UTC
    If I deploy drones, recall drones, and deploy them again so they don't take aggro, is that an exploit? Can I get banned for it?
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #468 - 2012-11-09 16:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    So Fox Four, you are pushing forward with broken code.

    What a surprise.
    I can't imagine the last time this happened....wait.

    So drone boats get a reprieve, at least for a short period.
    On Dec 4th, we just take a hit in our income generation while we have to sacrifice a T1 drone or do a release/get aggro/call back/release dance with our drones for the 1st wave, and of course subsequent spawns. But you still are forging ahead planning on trashing drones as a PvE platform. When you do fix that issue where the AI will go after drones at any time, it is game over for them.

    It was also so nice to see you saved the poor null sec pilots by altering the code so they can maintain their current tactics for running high end plexes. We must never, ever impact null sec income, right?

    And I would love to see you list the pros and cons of this new AI, as others have also asked.
    A precise list. Not some nebulous "it will make shooting NPC's more enjoyable".
    I would like to see what you envision the direct impact will be on players, and what is a pro, and what is a con.

    Not that you will, or can provide such a list. Even if you were willing to try, I am sure your bosses will not allow you to.

    Oh, and one last thing...are you guys truly serious, that you have now moved off Duality for testing, and forcing us to do this crap all over again on Buckingham. Wow....just wow.


    Actually, you know whats amazing? The incredible amount of complaining, nit picking, and general whining because CCP is finally doing what we have been asking them to do for years. That being to make the AI more challenging, more intelligent, more dangerous to all concerned.

    ... and then people like you entered the picture, tears flowing profusely down your checks, complaining that dangerous NPC's will be too hard... Going after mission runners will be too hard, actually having to be at the keyboard to use a drone boat in a mission is too hard... aggro changing to other targets in general is too hard.


    Frankly you people are beginning to make me sick.

    Either man up or find an equally easy way to make your isk, mining comes to mind, but quit trying to undermine attempts to make it more difficult to milk NPC's with no challenge or risk involved. You are seriously beginning to **** off the majority of the EVE community.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Vatek
    Rents Due Crew
    #469 - 2012-11-09 16:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Either man up for find an equally easy way to make your isk, mining comes to mind, but quit trying to undermine attempts to make it more difficult to milk NPC's with no challenge or risk involved. You are seriously beginning to **** off the majority of the EVE community.


    I must have missed the thread where you were announced as the official spokesman for the "majority of the EVE community".

    If you don't see the problem with CCP pushing forward with an AI that they know is broken and deciding to fix it later, I really don't know what to tell you. There is no reason that this cannot be delayed until a post-Retribution patch.
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #470 - 2012-11-09 16:49:34 UTC
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Capqu wrote:
    ...


    Capqu, I think it is painfully apparent to everyone in this thread that you have your self interest blinders on and are uable to post objectively on the subject. Time for you to step away until you can look at something other than the bits you are fixated on.
    Stop being a tool.


    Are you telling me not to post because my interests conflict with yours? They asked for feedback, I'm giving mine, which obviously covers my interests. I'm not the one who should be worried about being objective. Maybe you should give your own feedback instead of just trying to berate others.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #471 - 2012-11-09 16:49:41 UTC
    Vatek wrote:
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Either man up for find an equally easy way to make your isk, mining comes to mind, but quit trying to undermine attempts to make it more difficult to milk NPC's with no challenge or risk involved. You are seriously beginning to **** off the majority of the EVE community.


    I must have missed the thread where you were announced as the official spokesman for the "majority of the EVE community".

    Who are you again?

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #472 - 2012-11-09 16:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
    Vatek wrote:
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Either man up for find an equally easy way to make your isk, mining comes to mind, but quit trying to undermine attempts to make it more difficult to milk NPC's with no challenge or risk involved. You are seriously beginning to **** off the majority of the EVE community.


    I must have missed the thread where you were announced as the official spokesman for the "majority of the EVE community".

    If you don't see the problem with CCP pushing forward with an AI that they know is broken and deciding to fix it later, I really don't know what to tell you. There is no reason that this cannot be delayed until a post-Retribution patch.

    Updates, patches, and expansions are pushed in MMO's all the time that are either not fully complete at the time of release or have issues that they know will have to be addressed after the rest of the expansion is in place.

    This is nothing new.

    Squawking about it as if they are selling you a car that doesn't run doesn't help your case. Software development happens like this frequently, and most people are savvy enough to recognize that fact.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Vatek
    Rents Due Crew
    #473 - 2012-11-09 16:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Vatek wrote:
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Either man up for find an equally easy way to make your isk, mining comes to mind, but quit trying to undermine attempts to make it more difficult to milk NPC's with no challenge or risk involved. You are seriously beginning to **** off the majority of the EVE community.


    I must have missed the thread where you were announced as the official spokesman for the "majority of the EVE community".

    If you don't see the problem with CCP pushing forward with an AI that they know is broken and deciding to fix it later, I really don't know what to tell you. There is no reason that this cannot be delayed until a post-Retribution patch.

    Updates, patches, and expansions are pushed in MMO's all the time that are either not fully complete at the time of release or have issues that they know will have to be addressed after the rest of the expansion is in place.

    This is nothing new.

    Squawking about it as if they are selling you a car that doesn't run doesn't help your case. Software developement happens like this frequently, and most people are savvy enough to recognize that fact.




    Feel free to give me one good reason why this can't be delayed for a couple of weeks until they can do it properly. Pretty sure the current AI is perfectly capable of doing the job for a little longer.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #474 - 2012-11-09 17:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
    Vatek wrote:
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Vatek wrote:
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Either man up for find an equally easy way to make your isk, mining comes to mind, but quit trying to undermine attempts to make it more difficult to milk NPC's with no challenge or risk involved. You are seriously beginning to **** off the majority of the EVE community.


    I must have missed the thread where you were announced as the official spokesman for the "majority of the EVE community".

    If you don't see the problem with CCP pushing forward with an AI that they know is broken and deciding to fix it later, I really don't know what to tell you. There is no reason that this cannot be delayed until a post-Retribution patch.

    Updates, patches, and expansions are pushed in MMO's all the time that are either not fully complete at the time of release or have issues that they know will have to be addressed after the rest of the expansion is in place.

    This is nothing new.

    Squawking about it as if they are selling you a car that doesn't run doesn't help your case. Software developement happens like this frequently, and most people are savvy enough to recognize that fact.




    Feel free to give me one good reason why this can't be delayed for a couple of weeks until they can do it properly.

    Clever phrasing, but lets be adults here.

    Just because there will need to be adjustments made after release does not mean that they aren't doing things "properly". In fact this is pretty obviously this is exactly how to handle this issue, as the changes encompass far more than the minor portions that still have issues to work out.

    Yes, making those adjustments would be best done sooner rather than later... but delaying this whole section of the update makes little if any sense. There are issues with every piece of software you have ever purchased or used in your entire life, you just didn't necessarily use the software in a way that made those defects noticable to you. That is why you see updates and patches come out on a regular basis for everything from games, to utilities, to drivers. You don't hold up major portions of a software update because of some very minor bugs that can be addressed at an appropriate time afterwards.

    You know this, stop being obtuse.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Vatek
    Rents Due Crew
    #475 - 2012-11-09 17:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
    I'm not being obtuse when they are knowingly shipping it with a defect that can be used to completely circumvent it. What's the point of pushing it to TQ if I can break it by launching a flight of drones and recalling them? If this is your definition of a minor bug I'd really hate to see what you call a major one.

    PVP concerns not being addressed until some point in the future are another matter entirely but at this point I'm just happy they didn't ignore it completely, unless "after Retribution" turns out to be 6 months from now.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #476 - 2012-11-09 17:26:26 UTC
    Vatek wrote:
    I'm not being obtuse when they are knowingly shipping it with a defect that can be used to completely circumvent it. What's the point of pushing it to TQ if I can break it by launching a flight of drones and recalling them? If this is your definition of a minor bug I'd really hate to see what you call a major one.

    PVP concerns not being addressed until some point in the future are another matter entirely but at this point I'm just happy they didn't ignore it completely, unless "after Retribution" turns out to be 6 months from now.

    If it takes 6 months to address I'll be yelling along side you.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Vatek
    Rents Due Crew
    #477 - 2012-11-09 17:34:03 UTC
    I would definitely like to know what the timeline is for the defect fix and the PVP modifications.
    Singira
    Heffalumps and Woozles.
    #478 - 2012-11-09 17:49:38 UTC
    How hard can it be to base it on damage dealt rather than sig radius?

    Seriously..

    Sig radius..

    How is this making PvE more interesting or challenging when it just means pull in your drones once or twice?
    I fly a tengu, this will make things more interesting for me how?
    At best it makes a mindnumbingly boring task a little more troublesome for some..

    This fixes nothing but breaks a lot..
    Jiska Ensa
    Estrale Frontiers
    #479 - 2012-11-09 18:20:05 UTC
    OK I tried out the new NPC AI on Buckingham...I must say after a half-hour of trying to rat with both fighters and sentries, I never ever want to see drones again.

    I had to babysit them worse than in wormholes. Seems every 5 seconds they're being shot, no matter what the carrier is doing to the NPC's.

    Well, I guess you did say you wanted to nerf ratting carriers. Time to train something else. Oh well.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #480 - 2012-11-09 18:42:30 UTC
    Jiska Ensa wrote:
    OK I tried out the new NPC AI on Buckingham...I must say after a half-hour of trying to rat with both fighters and sentries, I never ever want to see drones again.

    I had to babysit them worse than in wormholes. Seems every 5 seconds they're being shot, no matter what the carrier is doing to the NPC's.

    Well, I guess you did say you wanted to nerf ratting carriers. Time to train something else. Oh well.

    I don't believe the dialed back hostility to drones is on the test server yet.

    Personally, I support ratting in carriers. They make excellent targets.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.