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[Winter] New destroyers

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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#961 - 2012-11-02 17:37:16 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I hope you are right. I am concerned however, that it will become a mothball ship, which is the reason for my posts. If it is only a deterrent, but the other ships of same class are actual killers (also a very good deterrent), there will not be much reason for flying it in comparison.

There is always reason to fly neutralizing ships.


Not if other ones are more effective (sentinel, curse) due to layout.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#962 - 2012-11-02 21:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I hope you are right. I am concerned however, that it will become a mothball ship, which is the reason for my posts. If it is only a deterrent, but the other ships of same class are actual killers (also a very good deterrent), there will not be much reason for flying it in comparison.

There is always reason to fly neutralizing ships.


Not if other ones are more effective (sentinel, curse) due to layout.

That depends entirely on what you are doing.
As an example:
RvB fights where often neither the Sentinel nor the Curse would be allowed, but destroyers are fine.

Or.

Faction Warfare, where ship restrictions heavily come into play.

Or.

Any tournament setting.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#963 - 2012-11-02 22:15:35 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Not if other ones are more effective (sentinel, curse) due to layout.

This one is a destroyer (there is no other neutralizing destroyer), and a T1 ship (there is no other neutralizers bonused T1 ship).

Indeed you could use a curse or sentinel, though the destroyer will be cheaper, more resistant than the sentinel and faster than the curse.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#964 - 2012-11-02 22:50:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Not if other ones are more effective (sentinel, curse) due to layout.

This one is a destroyer (there is no other neutralizing destroyer), and a T1 ship (there is no other neutralizers bonused T1 ship).

Indeed you could use a curse or sentinel, though the destroyer will be cheaper, more resistant than the sentinel and faster than the curse.


This this this.

It's the same reason the T1 logi is going to be popular. Cheap disposable neut ship (or logistics) that aren't 100mill+ a pop.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#965 - 2012-11-03 00:11:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Not if other ones are more effective (sentinel, curse) due to layout.

This one is a destroyer (there is no other neutralizing destroyer), and a T1 ship (there is no other neutralizers bonused T1 ship).

Indeed you could use a curse or sentinel, though the destroyer will be cheaper, more resistant than the sentinel and faster than the curse.


Keep in mind, according to them, Tiers are going away. Roles are replacing them. And I am not sure the price is going to be cheaper (anyone seen build prices yet?). And bringing up tournaments, and particular spots like that falls into pure niche, which is what I am hoping this ship avoids. I love the concept behind the ship, and would like to be able to use it in things other than just a couple of places.


Reading back across some of my previous posts here, it almost appears as if I am just trying to be argumentative. That is not my intention.

What I see (purely from looking and eft'ing, I will stress that this is all I have done because there is the important distinction between paper numbers and how it actually performs in game, which I have not experienced yet. I don't want to say something is fact when it may not be) currently is an oddly built ship layout. It is a drone boat, with a combat boat's slots, an ewar's bonuses, and a tank's speed.

It is not really able to afford the slots to boost its offense and defense, and being the slowest boat, defense is kind of needed on it. It only has 1 mid slot to use (since prop mod is mandatory in pvp), and is very heavy on high slots for unbonused weapons and neuts. I do not really see a way to fit it to complement its build / synergize, do you?

I may be wrong. Hell, I HOPE I'm wrong Big smile. And as I stated above, I am talking purely from an armchair warrior perspective atm, since I can not get on. It seems as if some of the people going back and forth with me over it are in the same boat (if I am wrong and you have been on it, please, let me know your experiences in it).

I believe Kuenelt is one of the few that has managed to get any time in the cockpit so far. His feedback has been helpful. More testing in it is needed to get feedback on it in action, vs frigates, and other dessies. It is the only dessie that seems to have an odd placement for role.

o7

~Z



There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#966 - 2012-11-03 00:27:48 UTC
Indeed it's not like the other, because of neutra bonus.

And I didn't meant tier 1, but tech 1. It's price will be the one of a tech 1 ship, and nowhere near the price of the tech 2 sentinel/curse/pilgrim.
Neal Altol
What Shall We Call It
#967 - 2012-11-03 06:57:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Indeed it's not like the other, because of neutra bonus.

And I didn't meant tier 1, but tech 1. It's price will be the one of a tech 1 ship, and nowhere near the price of the tech 2 sentinel/curse/pilgrim.



Cruor is T1 has neut bonus and web bonus is a frig

Ashimmu is t1 has neut bonus and web bonus is a cruiser

yes they be not cheap but non t2 neut ships exist at the frig level
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#968 - 2012-11-03 07:43:11 UTC
Hairs, they are split.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#969 - 2012-11-03 16:28:00 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I think you should lock the Amarr and Gallente drone Bonus to their racial Dmg Types.

Why?

Because the uproar might actually make you fix Amarr Drones. Lol

The drone issue has been bugging me for quite some time. Why has this not been fixed yet? There is a simple typo in their attributes in which of the two smaller drones (amarr and minmatar) the amarr drone has both lower damage AND worse tracking, when (since it's the bigger of the two), it should clearly have the higher damage. It's very simple:

(damage has highest on top, and tracking has slowest on top)
Damage:.....Tracking:
Hobgoblin.....Hobgoblin
Hornet..........Hornet
Warrior.........Acolyte
Acolyte........Warrior

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#970 - 2012-11-04 14:25:23 UTC
OMG love that new Caldari Destroyer,
8 Light Missile Launchers
Afterburner, Target Painter, Sensor Booster
2 Ballistic Control Systems

Ready to roll, missiles, missiles and more missiles

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
androch
LitlCorp
#971 - 2012-11-04 15:16:18 UTC
why do caldari ships always have to be so damn ugly, cant you guys give them a symetrical ship once and awihle? the random parts you add to them **** me off
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#972 - 2012-11-04 16:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
androch wrote:
why do caldari ships always have to be so damn ugly, cant you guys give them a symetrical ship once and awihle? the random parts you add to them **** me off


Caldari have plenty of symmetrical ships, and they're still ugly. Take for instance the flying brick, the Rokh, which looks like a sci-fi assault rifle. Actually come to think of it, it's pretty cool looking. And the Heron, which looks like a tuning fork or maybe the letter H. Nah, I kinda like that one too. Well then there's the Cormorant, which looks like some sort of malformed arachnid. Yeah, I can agree that one's ugly. But that's not all, what about the Merlin? Oh wait, that one actually looks pretty swell. Well howabout the Charon? Nah, that one is pretty awesome too. And it's not even symmetrical. Scorpion? No way, that's got to be one of the most impressive-looking ships in any sci-fi ever.

I agree partly with you, in that the asymmetrical Caldari ships look like garbage, but I think the same can be said for all races. Perhaps the only good-looking asymmetrical ship is the Thanatos.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#973 - 2012-11-04 16:54:39 UTC
The new caldari destroyer is fantastic looking. So is the Gallente. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Johnny Bloomington
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#974 - 2012-11-05 20:52:34 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
androch wrote:
why do caldari ships always have to be so damn ugly, cant you guys give them a symetrical ship once and awihle? the random parts you add to them **** me off


Caldari have plenty of symmetrical ships, and they're still ugly. Take for instance the flying brick, the Rokh, which looks like a sci-fi assault rifle. Actually come to think of it, it's pretty cool looking. And the Heron, which looks like a tuning fork or maybe the letter H. Nah, I kinda like that one too. Well then there's the Cormorant, which looks like some sort of malformed arachnid. Yeah, I can agree that one's ugly. But that's not all, what about the Merlin? Oh wait, that one actually looks pretty swell. Well howabout the Charon? Nah, that one is pretty awesome too. And it's not even symmetrical. Scorpion? No way, that's got to be one of the most impressive-looking ships in any sci-fi ever.

I agree partly with you, in that the asymmetrical Caldari ships look like garbage, but I think the same can be said for all races. Perhaps the only good-looking asymmetrical ship is the Thanatos.


You may want to look at thoughs ships again. The Rokh is mostly symmetrical but there is a L-shaped part on one side. Heron is not symmetrical. Look at the cockpit on the side.

Cormorant?
http://eve.raavi.org/SHIPS/Caldari/02%20Destroyer%20-%20Cormorant%204.jpg

CCP wish list: show damage on ships and open that door!
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#975 - 2012-11-06 00:49:54 UTC
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
You may want to look at thoughs ships again. The Rokh is mostly symmetrical but there is a L-shaped part on one side. Heron is not symmetrical. Look at the cockpit on the side.
They're symmetrical enough for me to call them symmetrical. I draw the line approximately where the Navitas is--I'm not sure whether I think it's symmetrical or not.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Manes Avatarr
Superfast
#976 - 2012-11-06 01:03:38 UTC
Come on guys, Caldari and Gallente new dessies look fantastic. Altough i could have some issues with minmatar dessie (1st World War tank gun turret, wtf?) but more i look at this, more i like it. Aand a bit too boring design of amarr boat (its just too plain) but all new designg are holding each own style so im sure all of them is gonna be favored by various people.

And i completely dont understand non-symmetrical hatery. Diversity, its all about it.
And yes, Cormo is symmetrical , though even this side part. Whole ship's line is symmetrical, one element just doesn't change it at all.

I really hope they leave new Tempest hull a bit junkyard-look and asymetrical. I saw new model and im optimistic altough i will really miss this side "twin sensor light bulb" section.

FRONTIER ADVENTURERS Corp. | To explore, build & fight! | recruitment topic
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#977 - 2012-11-06 02:10:03 UTC
If they could add turret effects for nos and nuets I'd be happier with the Amarr one. And a more obvious hangar that all the drones on a small ship would pour out of.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#978 - 2012-11-06 16:18:25 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Not if other ones are more effective (sentinel, curse) due to layout.

This one is a destroyer (there is no other neutralizing destroyer), and a T1 ship (there is no other neutralizers bonused T1 ship).

Indeed you could use a curse or sentinel, though the destroyer will be cheaper, more resistant than the sentinel and faster than the curse.


Agreed. It is a cost effective E-War platform like the Griffin that if used properly can dictate the fight and provide a needed bonus as a support ship. It will also have the benefit of being able to hold its own to a decent level and act not just solely as a neuting ship.

Having a cost effective method for players in a variety of ship sizes improves the dynamic of the game as a whole. If I am having a frigate fleet / destroyer fleet I may opt to bring some of these in order to wolf pack a larger ship. We take his guns out of the equation and his tank, then we make actively feast on the hull of his ships like the vultures we are.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#979 - 2012-11-06 20:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Hey, I was just EFT warrioring, and maybe I don't have a ******* clue, but I think the missile (all?)dessies might need a buff.

Either that or AML's need to be nerfed, or something.

I got to playing around with the Caracal in comparison to the U-Boat (new Caldari Dessy) and I found a disturbing truth.


***REQUIRES GENOLUTION SET OR OTHER FITTING IMPLANTS***
[NEW Caldari Tier2, Test]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
NEW Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

[NEW Caracal, Test]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x2


These are 2 equivalent fits. Drones weren't included in the damage comparison.

Caracal vs Dessy:
Damage: 218 vs 203 (with scourge, lower with any other damage type)
Tank: 35418 EHP vs 4493 EHP
Speed: 1881 vs 1533
Align (MWD off): 5.1 vs 4.4
Signature: 197 vs 75.6//1143 vs 444
Range: 63.3km


The Caracal comes out ahead in almost everything, only giving the Destroyer the edge in: Signature Radius, locking time, cost, engagability, and explosion velocity.

I'm sure the comparison works with the Minmatar destroyer too, and I'm sure it's not too far off with the drone destroyers (at least the gun destroyers can do about double the DPS).

What I'd like to see done to both the Minmatar and Caldari destroyers is an increase to fitting, not a big one, but still an increase, and I'd like to see ALL destroyers get a large increase to speed. Destoyers are supposed to be there to kill frigates. I'd assume that in order to do their job, they should have enough DPS to kill the targets before they kill them, and enough speed to at least keep close to them (not keep pace with them). The fact that destoyers are edged out in speed by the attack cruisers (and probably a few others) is... disturbing, in my opinion.


Edit: and before you tell me that the Destroyer fit wasn't complete, I know it wasn't. I didn't have enough CPU or PG to spare to finish it, even with the Genolution set. Assuming I dropped the BCU's for fitting mods to complete the fit, then we're still looking at pathetic DPS.

Also, if you're going to tell me to look at Rockets instead:

***Needs Genolution and 5% PG implant to fit***
[NEW Caldari Tier2, test2]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, NEW Scourge Rage Rocket

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I

242 dps, 8k EHP tank. Still slower then the Caracal, and less damage (counting drones), tank, and range.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#980 - 2012-11-06 21:20:51 UTC
I think the problem is that CCP is under the impression that 8 missile launchers is somehow too much. I don't know why they feel this way, but take a look at all of the missile boats. None of them can fit 8 missile launchers, despite the fact that missiles do less dps than other weapon systems (with the exception of torpedoes, and only with a target painter and/or webifier) and also that missile ships generally field fewer drones than other ships.

I think if they just give the new caldari destroyer an 8th missile slot and 6 more powergrid, and a bit of CPU to balance, then it'd be great. It'll match the caracal's damage output with light missiles while being harder to hit.

Also, I think they could maybe add a 2mn AB & MWD for destroyers and I'd suggest a 20mn for battlecruisers but they're barely more massive than cruisers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."