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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1161 - 2012-10-26 16:25:59 UTC
Green Looter wrote:
I have a some questions:

If you attack or kill an innocent ship in low sec and you get the suspect flag will you still take a "negative standing" hit on your personal sec-status like you do now?




And will the security status system work like it does now

Players with better than -2.0 can enter any system
Players with -2.0 or worse cannot enter 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse cannot enter 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse cannot enter 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse cannot enter 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse cannot enter 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse cannot enter 0.5 systems

and so on, or will that be changed?


You will take a negative standings hit on your sec status like you do now...
The security status is not changing yet... but there are cogs in motion to change this soon(tm) (Probably Summer)...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1162 - 2012-10-26 16:47:41 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Oh I have read your points, like I said before and I'll say it again:

If 1 minute timer is too long then it can be reduced, but 10-15 seconds that you suggest is simply too short of a timer when you factor in invulnerability that happens when jumping/exiting warp, lag in client-server interaction, session timer, lock timers, etc.

Now 10-15 seconds may seem like a long time in a "perfect world". But unfortunately people can't exactly read minds of other people and register and predict if that person is going to logoff or not.

Those quickly diminishing seconds are important. Receiving information and acting on that information takes time, then you factor that along with delay between what happens on your client and what happens on the server a lot of time is lost.

10-15 seconds in a "realistic world" is a very short amount of time, therefore should not be considered.

For example:

Newbie Freighter pilot hears that the gate is camped just as he jumps. He quickly closes the client during a loading session.

The 10-15 second timer starts after that disconnect, depending on the server load may takes 5-10 seconds to load into the system. Now the campers must lock within the very little time remaining, but they are unable to lock on the target right away due to the target that has not quite left invulnerability state wasting another second or 2.

They then waste another few seconds finally being able to lock the target.

They finally activate their modules, but due to the delay between client and server, 1-2 second is spent relaying that to the server, the client show the target is "pointed" but the server does not.

By then the freighter has disappeared from space before the module activation is received by the server.

As you can see 10-15 seconds is not enough.


I suggested a very important change that fixes your dilemmas:

The despawn timer does NOT start until your ship INITIATEs its emergency warp. This solves that delimma, becuase when the client initiates warp, the ship will decloaks, the ship breaks all invulnerabilities (from docking, cynoing, warping, etc), and will immediately become a target-able object.

This won't solve lag delays,perhaps... but lag delays are not going to add more than 3 seconds to your actions. Perhaps 15-20s would set your mind at ease... If you are on grid with that freighter, that still leaves you plenty of time to target and aggress it... Anything that fails to aggro the DC'd player with the remaining 10 seconds is irrelevant, because they weren't going to stop it's ewarp anyway!

By the way, one more caveat...
The EWARP despawn timer needs to be approprately influenced by TiDi, but I think that's implied!
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1163 - 2012-10-26 18:58:36 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Oxandrolone wrote:
The situation is not at all solved unless the NPC flag can be converted into a PvP at any time during the NPC flag eg 5 minutes.

Otherwise capitals just log out and cannot be agressed quick enough in order to stop them disappearing.

If i jump into a wormhole and see capitals in a site, the fastest way to get to them is to combat them down usually, this takes about 1 minute to scan and then additional time to warp to them and aggress them. Aprox 2 minutes on a very good prober (like myself) Bearing in mind the wormhole sig in their systems spawns as soon as i initiate warp to it which gives them another minute so it takes about 3 minutes for a perfect skilled, virtue set prober who knows what their doing like myself to agress them.

So the timer needs to be atleast 3 minutes for it to even be possible to agress them (let alone try to kill them) 5 minutes is a much more reasonable amount of time to expect a non-perfect skills, non-virtue set prober to have any chance of aggressing them.

I was hoping for the 15 minute timer but i understand this is too high for legitimate disconnects.


They could just allow PvP flags to be applied during the 5 minute PvE timer. 5m is plenty of time to probe someone out and aggro them. I wouldn't be adverse to it.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2079573#post2079573

Specifically
Quote:

* NPC flag timeout will be lowered to 5 minutes. NPC flags are not further extended after log-off.
* PVP flags CAN be created and further extended after log-off even if the owner did not have a PVP flag at the time of disconnect.


I may just be reading it wrong, but I don't think it specifically says that you can inherit a PvP flag while sitting in space with your PvE timer running. I want to believe that you can, but who knows! If you can apply PvP flags to people who DCed under PvE flags, then :toot: there's nothing to fix there.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1164 - 2012-10-26 19:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Ganthrithor wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2079573#post2079573

Specifically
Quote:

* NPC flag timeout will be lowered to 5 minutes. NPC flags are not further extended after log-off.
* PVP flags CAN be created and further extended after log-off even if the owner did not have a PVP flag at the time of disconnect.


I may just be reading it wrong, but I don't think it specifically says that you can inherit a PvP flag while sitting in space with your PvE timer running. I want to believe that you can, but who knows! If you can apply PvP flags to people who DCed under PvE flags, then :toot: there's nothing to fix there.


That's certainly what it sounds like it's saying to me:

1) NPC flag timeout is 5 minutes, non-extendable.

2) PVP flag can be created after logoff and;

3) extended after logoff.

So if a ratter logs off with an NPC flag, that's active for 5 minutes, during which time their ship sits there (1). During that 5 minutes, someone can come along and apply a PVP flag to their ship (2). They don't even have to have an optimal ship for the task, because the PVP flag can be extended--it counts from the last shot fired in either direction. So if you want, you can plink at the ratting ship with the covops frigate you happened to be flying in order to give the ship a PVP flag, and then either call in reinforcements or reship to something with more DPS. You have 15 minutes, after all. If reinforcements don't come within 15 minutes, plink at the ship again to extend the timer.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1165 - 2012-10-26 20:51:35 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2079573#post2079573

Specifically
Quote:

* NPC flag timeout will be lowered to 5 minutes. NPC flags are not further extended after log-off.
* PVP flags CAN be created and further extended after log-off even if the owner did not have a PVP flag at the time of disconnect.


I may just be reading it wrong, but I don't think it specifically says that you can inherit a PvP flag while sitting in space with your PvE timer running. I want to believe that you can, but who knows! If you can apply PvP flags to people who DCed under PvE flags, then :toot: there's nothing to fix there.


That's certainly what it sounds like it's saying to me:

1) NPC flag timeout is 5 minutes, non-extendable.

2) PVP flag can be created after logoff and;

3) extended after logoff.

So if a ratter logs off with an NPC flag, that's active for 5 minutes, during which time their ship sits there (1). During that 5 minutes, someone can come along and apply a PVP flag to their ship (2). They don't even have to have an optimal ship for the task, because the PVP flag can be extended--it counts from the last shot fired in either direction. So if you want, you can plink at the ratting ship with the covops frigate you happened to be flying in order to give the ship a PVP flag, and then either call in reinforcements or reship to something with more DPS. You have 15 minutes, after all. If reinforcements don't come within 15 minutes, plink at the ship again to extend the timer.

Thankfully, the NPC flag being separate from the normal "disappear upon logoff" timer makes the issue of ships vanishing shortly after a no-flags disconnect moot WRT the concerns about carebear-logoffski tricks.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1166 - 2012-10-27 00:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Masterplan
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2079573#post2079573

Specifically
Quote:

* NPC flag timeout will be lowered to 5 minutes. NPC flags are not further extended after log-off.
* PVP flags CAN be created and further extended after log-off even if the owner did not have a PVP flag at the time of disconnect.


I may just be reading it wrong, but I don't think it specifically says that you can inherit a PvP flag while sitting in space with your PvE timer running. I want to believe that you can, but who knows! If you can apply PvP flags to people who DCed under PvE flags, then :toot: there's nothing to fix there.


That's certainly what it sounds like it's saying to me:

1) NPC flag timeout is 5 minutes, non-extendable.

2) PVP flag can be created after logoff and;

3) extended after logoff.

So if a ratter logs off with an NPC flag, that's active for 5 minutes, during which time their ship sits there (1). During that 5 minutes, someone can come along and apply a PVP flag to their ship (2). They don't even have to have an optimal ship for the task, because the PVP flag can be extended--it counts from the last shot fired in either direction. So if you want, you can plink at the ratting ship with the covops frigate you happened to be flying in order to give the ship a PVP flag, and then either call in reinforcements or reship to something with more DPS. You have 15 minutes, after all. If reinforcements don't come within 15 minutes, plink at the ship again to extend the timer.

This is correct. You'll get a PVP flag for attacking another player or having another player attack your ship (even if you've logged off, but the ship hasn't yet been removed from space). Having an NPC flag at the time of disconnect simply means you'll hang around in space for a little longer, giving someone more time to find you and attack you, which then gives you a PVP flag,.

This part is on Duality right now btw, so you should head over there and test it for yourselves to see how it behaves.
EDIT: It looks like the Duality build was taken the day before I made this change, so the ability to give new PVP flags post-logoff isn't on that server yet.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1167 - 2012-10-27 10:51:55 UTC
somewon was saying on duality it still has a build with a 15 minute timer for NPC aggression, i know its Saturday and your probably not working but anyone else know if this is the case? Soundwave says on twitter it will be changed.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1168 - 2012-10-27 14:25:14 UTC
The build on Duality is several days old already. I made the 5 minute NPC and PVP flag change a few days ago, so it definitely exists, but not yet in the public build.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
General Jung
Asgard Intelligence Services
#1169 - 2012-10-27 17:04:56 UTC
Hello Forum,

I really hope that non-podkillers in lowsec won´t drop below -5.0, as mentioned by CCP Greyscale.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
#1170 - 2012-10-28 13:31:38 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Green Looter wrote:
I have a some questions:

If you attack or kill an innocent ship in low sec and you get the suspect flag will you still take a "negative standing" hit on your personal sec-status like you do now?




And will the security status system work like it does now

Players with better than -2.0 can enter any system
Players with -2.0 or worse cannot enter 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse cannot enter 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse cannot enter 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse cannot enter 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse cannot enter 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse cannot enter 0.5 systems

and so on, or will that be changed?


You will take a negative standings hit on your sec status like you do now...
The security status is not changing yet... but there are cogs in motion to change this soon(tm) (Probably Summer)...


because CCP is too busy making it "improved" with NPC/WEAPON/PVP ridiculous flags instead.. also those arent about CRIMEWATCH imho..



p.s. how many pilots could escape from you in the middle of fight by your famous logoffski? all time, per week please??? or it is only your imagine..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
Enik3
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#1171 - 2012-10-28 19:48:26 UTC
This is great, CCP. I can't really see any downside to this. It will take away station games and risk-less ratting, it balances ganker vs. gankee, and it helps protect noobs from cheap PVP by can-flippers and the like. Very nice!
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1172 - 2012-10-29 00:27:52 UTC
really i`am scared now for sure Shocked
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1173 - 2012-10-29 17:32:59 UTC
Tsukinosuke wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Green Looter wrote:
I have a some questions:

If you attack or kill an innocent ship in low sec and you get the suspect flag will you still take a "negative standing" hit on your personal sec-status like you do now?




And will the security status system work like it does now

Players with better than -2.0 can enter any system
Players with -2.0 or worse cannot enter 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse cannot enter 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse cannot enter 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse cannot enter 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse cannot enter 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse cannot enter 0.5 systems

and so on, or will that be changed?


You will take a negative standings hit on your sec status like you do now...
The security status is not changing yet... but there are cogs in motion to change this soon(tm) (Probably Summer)...


because CCP is too busy making it "improved" with NPC/WEAPON/PVP ridiculous flags instead.. also those arent about CRIMEWATCH imho..



p.s. how many pilots could escape from you in the middle of fight by your famous logoffski? all time, per week please??? or it is only your imagine..


1.) While the system has the name Crimewatch.. it's not entirely focused on criminal actions... It is a system which deals with all forms of aggression in EvE, including NPC, Player vs Player, etc. As such, NPC, Weapons, and PvP flags are completely within it's scope...

2.) What are you talking about in your P.S.?? The new changes pretty much prevent people from logoffski'ing to avoid destruction, and strive to define a time when it is OK to logoff in a safe manner. The last major change (renewable PvP flags) really inhibit people logoffsking to avoid their death, but there are still some loopholes that the new crimewatch system is very much addressing (i.e. you can gain a PvP flag after logoff even if you didn't have one prior to logging off!)!!!1! This swings the pendulum a little too far given you can scan down almost any ship within the 1min non-aggressed despawn timer, which is why we're advocating a reduced despawn timer (like 15 seconds) which is short enough to prevent this.
Rutger Gist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1174 - 2012-10-30 01:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rutger Gist
Quote:
Q: My corporation's acquisition specialists are concerned they will be out of a job once these Crimewatch changes go into effect. What is CONCORD doing to prevent massive layoffs in the private sector of wealth redistribution?

A: CONCORD acknowledges the free enterprise of the capsuleers and respects their acceptance of the risks and consequences related to their chosen careers. To that end, the primary aim of Crimewatch is to provide clearer information to those seeking it. CONCORD's goal is to reduce the level of creative abuse without adversely affecting the capsuleers' options for creative acquisition.


CCP, why the non answer?

Bottom line is that Crimewatch is more Crimestop. I'm not talking about suicide ganking or jumping from a ship that you attracted aggro in, to then use another ship to free gank a non participating target. I'm strictly writing about ore thieves and looting / salvaging another player's wrecks.

If I understand the system correctly, stealing or salvaging another player's wreck will now allow every player in the system to freely attack you. But not only killing your ship, but your pod will be flagged as well. But wait, if they do attack you, they then get flagged and are free to being attacked by everyone in the system as well.

The you are also flagged for killing NPCs in this system as well. So mission runners and ratters alike will also be flagged and vulnerable? Killing NPC will also block us from going through gates or docking while the timer is running? We have to wait for a timer to return to our agent to turn in a mission?

This all seems really kind of silly to me. Ore Thieves and Ninja Looter / Salvagers had always had the risk of retaliation from the individual pilot or his or her corp members. There is no need to expand this to everyone in the system.

The chain reaction of this system is nothing less than total chaos. Even if you say, "Oh look an outlaw, let me shoot him." , you will then become flagged for anyone else to shoot you. The result is either everyone flies cheap frigates or no one ever shoots anyone or anything (NPC rats included) in High Sec.

Working as intended?

PS...

Quote:
Freely Attacked by Other Players


Does this mean all other players in the system or just the player(s) that we stole from (Suspect Flagged)?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1175 - 2012-10-30 01:42:51 UTC
You've not been reading it closely enough.

Salvage, as always, is free.

Steal loot, and you'll be suspect flagged, making you a viable target for all.

If you attack a suspect, you enter into a limited engagement with them, allowing them to fight back. No-one else gets to interfere (other than to attack the suspect.) without becoming a suspect themselves (unless they're repping a corp mate)


Engaging NPCs gives you the NPC flag. This flag will stop you from disappearing on logoff, for 5 minutes. That's all it will do. (if you get shot within that 5 minutes, you'll pick up the pvp flag. Which stops you vanishing for 15 minutes. sucks to be a ratter trying a logoffski)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1176 - 2012-10-30 17:15:44 UTC
Rutger Gist wrote:
.... rant about changes that mostly aren't being implemented...


Please train reading comprehension.... somehow you woefully misread or misunderstood the upcoming changes....
Rutger Gist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1177 - 2012-10-30 21:03:28 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rutger Gist wrote:
.... rant about changes that mostly aren't being implemented...


Please train reading comprehension.... somehow you woefully misread or misunderstood the upcoming changes....


Somehow you managed to attribute a quote to me, I did not make.

But, I do see that I misread the relationship between having a Suspect Flag and Limited Engagement. I still don't understand why there is an aggression timer for shooting Pirate (MOB) NPCs, but it is at least only 5 minutes.

I'm still not a huge fan of everyone having kill rights because I stole from another player, completely disassociated with those that attack me. As I said early, I don't mind being attacked by the pilot / corp I steal from but that is not really anyone else's business.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#1178 - 2012-11-01 02:11:29 UTC
Belated question on "Limited Engagements" and assistance.

Scenario 1:

Logi and guy with war dec are missioning / incursioning / other together.
* does Logi get war-flagged?

WT warps in and engages combat ship
* does this create a "limited engagement"? If so, does the logi get suspect flagged if he continues to rep?


Scenario 2:

Incursion fleet. Some guy warps in and attempts to suicide gank a gunship.
* does this create a "limited engagement"?
* in any case, what is the status of a logi that attempts to rep the target?

Possible exploit:
- warp expendable ship into incursion.
- attack same target as Sansha (concord retaliates)
- logi is suspect flagged when it attempts to (keep) repping target
- gank "suspect" logi


Also, it would be really nice to be able to create a consensual fleet vs fleet engagement. Example of how this might work:
- Fleet A boss challenges Fleet B boss to consensual engagement
- Fleet B boss accepts
- All members of both fleets receive a warning message: accept engagement or be auto-kicked from fleet in 1 minute.
- At expiration of timer, engagement begins

Refinements:
- do the bosses get to see the enemy fleet numbers / composition before confirming the engagement?
- can other people join fleet subsequent to the challenge?

In a strict mechanic, the answers would be "yes" and "no", but maybe that level of strictness isn't needed in the situations where this might be used.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1179 - 2012-11-01 21:37:52 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
Belated question on "Limited Engagements" and assistance.

Scenario 1:

Logi and guy with war dec are missioning / incursioning / other together.
* does Logi get war-flagged?

WT warps in and engages combat ship
* does this create a "limited engagement"? If so, does the logi get suspect flagged if he continues to rep?


Scenario 2:

Incursion fleet. Some guy warps in and attempts to suicide gank a gunship.
* does this create a "limited engagement"?
* in any case, what is the status of a logi that attempts to rep the target?

Possible exploit:
- warp expendable ship into incursion.
- attack same target as Sansha (concord retaliates)
- logi is suspect flagged when it attempts to (keep) repping target
- gank "suspect" logi


Also, it would be really nice to be able to create a consensual fleet vs fleet engagement. Example of how this might work:
- Fleet A boss challenges Fleet B boss to consensual engagement
- Fleet B boss accepts
- All members of both fleets receive a warning message: accept engagement or be auto-kicked from fleet in 1 minute.
- At expiration of timer, engagement begins

Refinements:
- do the bosses get to see the enemy fleet numbers / composition before confirming the engagement?
- can other people join fleet subsequent to the challenge?

In a strict mechanic, the answers would be "yes" and "no", but maybe that level of strictness isn't needed in the situations where this might be used.


Scenario 1: No information has been provided on the interaction between flags and wardecs.... Essentially, we are in the dark here. There has been ONE comment that has not been thoroughly explained that is VERY applicable here:

CCP Masterplan wrote:
Looks like I forgot to include the other, inverse rule, which goes something like this:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion


I believe this "rule" was proposed to flag all neutral logistics ships as suspect if they stick there head into the middle of a legal war.

Scenario 2:
A suicide ganker will gain a Criminal Flag when they attack their target... As long as the target does not fire back, no Limited Engagement is created, so the original proposal would NOT create a suspect flag for the logi's. However, quote above changes things. When the suicide ganker aggresses their target, both the suicide ganker and the target gain a PvP Flag. From the above statement, you could infer that non-corp/alliance/militia logi's WILL get a suspect flag if they rep the target of the suicide ganker....

I HOPE that the quote was slightly miss-stated, and that they meant
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a WEAPONS flag would get you a Suspect flag[/b]
Again, this one is still under discussion. This would solve the incursion fleet exploit you elude to, as well as flag neutral logistics as Suspects when they stick there head into a fight (although neutral logi's could rep a ship that doesn't shoot back all day long!).

It would be really nice to here back from CCP on this....
Iwant Urstuff
Iwant Urstuff Corp
#1180 - 2012-11-02 07:54:57 UTC
The progammers CCP hires are just that programmers. They write code, they probably for the most part do not understand games.

Just two things:

PVE players specifically mission runners are going to HATE this. Some will hate it enough to quit the game. Less accounts equals less dollars.

I can't wait till the roaming fleets in null sec after this encounter gate rats. Gate rats are now the invincible GODS of the PVP world of EVE. This is freaking hilarious.