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Fred's second-hand shoppe

Author
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#21 - 2012-10-31 22:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Casirio wrote:
Eve should always be proactive about keeping isk in the hands of players not giving it to an NPC for no reason other than to make an isk sink...

Problem is that it is too effective at doing just that. There is always more isk flowing in than flowing out right now. The new wardec cost may or may not have done anything at all as people will less frivolously toss money for decs. But the amount of ground sinks need to make up for is pretty staggering.
Will be back with precise numbers: from this years fanfest monthly 4Q average
Faucets:
NPC Bounties 26 trillion
wormhole 8.9 trillion
Incusion 8 trillion
Mission rewards 4.3 trillion
Other 3.4 trillion
Sinks:
Skillbooks 6.8 trillion
Blueprints 6.1 trillion
Fees and tax 3.7 trillion
Other 4.6 trillion

50 in, 26 out. that was 24 trillion inflow per MONTH.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-10-31 22:09:33 UTC
Paying to jump through NPC stargates: Its a terrible idea because it would give a reason not to travel, to camp gates more, new players not having the isk to make it to that null sec to pew so they dont. In general make people have one less reason to roam around New Eden. I mean really does it have to be spelled?
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#23 - 2012-10-31 22:15:10 UTC
I reconsiderd reduction in performance (because of depreciation) and see it is a bad idea.

The fix is that depreciation only escalates maintenance costs to keep the ship at 100& effectiveness.

The older the ship the more it costs to fix. Replacement at some point is inevitable. It becomes both a good sink and a boost to the player economy. (I'll add this to my OP)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#24 - 2012-10-31 22:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Touval Lysander wrote:

The older the ship the more it costs to fix. Replacement at some point is inevitable. It becomes both a good sink and a boost to the player economy. (I'll add this to my OP)


Cashing in ships with insurance at a calculated time or just replacing them or just grinding them down to minerals isn't a sink. Its still just shuffling isk or more faucet work with insurance. A proper sink needs isk eventually get sucked up by a npc. Keeping ships around to constantly be repaired in a meaningful way would push isk out. If damage was limited to parts you could live with slowly degrading for a good while, it wouldn't be as invasive. Like Heat damage addition, or warp speed penalty. like 6.0AU to 5.9 AU within a week or so. To a max of 10% damage, so 5.4 AU. Those freighters will be repairing all the damn time.
This with a added repair in the right mouse menu in inventory to quickly repair items than the current messy repair UI would decrease the hassle.
Same with visual cues that your current piloted ship is suffering damage would be the highlight of your current ship could change from green to yellow to red.
And decay should only ever happen to ships you're currently using.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#25 - 2012-10-31 22:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

The older the ship the more it costs to fix. Replacement at some point is inevitable. It becomes both a good sink and a boost to the player economy. (I'll add this to my OP)


Cashing in ships with insurance at a calculated time or just replacing them or just grinding them down to minerals isn't a sink. Its still just shuffling isk or more faucet work with insurance. A proper sink needs isk eventually get sucked up by a npc. Keeping ships around to constantly be repaired in a meaningful way would push isk out. If damage was limited to parts you could live with slowly degrading for a good while, it wouldn't be as invasive. Like Heat damage addition, or warp speed penalty. like 6.0AU to 5.9 AU within a week or so. To a max of 10% damage, so 5.4 AU. Those freighters will be repairing all the damn time.

Yeah, I see what you mean.

I suppose ship performance SHOULD degrade as long as the option to fix to 100% is included. If you choose not to pay the maintenance (to NPC) your ship performance will suffer. We also need to escalate the costs (% x age) to make replacement cost effective at some point. (modifying OP again - added that "permanent" damage is bad)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#26 - 2012-10-31 22:44:15 UTC
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#27 - 2012-10-31 22:47:33 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.

We I think are well beyond that when a frig full of plex can be vaporized and nothing drops.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#28 - 2012-10-31 22:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:

This with a added repair in the right mouse menu in inventory to quickly repair items than the current messy repair UI would decrease the hassle.

Same with visual cues that your current piloted ship is suffering damage would be the highlight of your current ship could change from green to yellow to red.

And decay should only ever happen to ships you're currently using.

From a coding POV, one additional ship field and the inclusion of the value at repair time is easy enough. Checking the condition of ship etc. is a good habit anyway. This might promote development of a better repair UI too.

I'm not suggesting that the degradation should occur at any speed that would be noticeable in real time. So visual cues would be moot.

And on not using ships means no bills. Not so sure. Depreciation shouldn't be something you can pick and choose. If you own 100 ships you need to pay 100 bills. The biggest sinks should be occuring to the richest players imo.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#29 - 2012-10-31 22:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nexus Day
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.

We I think are well beyond that when a frig full of plex can be vaporized and nothing drops.

Depends on how risk averse you are. Remember a large portion of the population would be too scared to transport said Plex.

Edit: Said isk instead of Plex.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#30 - 2012-10-31 22:51:41 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.

Moot point. Real money (RM) can be used to buy whatever ship whenever.

SP's are the only real limiter and even that's circumventable with RM - i.e. char bazaar.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#31 - 2012-10-31 22:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Nexus Day wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.

We I think are well beyond that when a frig full of plex can be vaporized and nothing drops.

Depends on how risk averse you are. Remember a large portion of the population would be too scared to transport said Plex.

Edit: Said isk instead of Plex.


Still, you use up isk all the time already. people stay in NPC corps for safety, that's 11% of bounties and missions taxed as it is. This would be a tax on usage (My ideal would be that it caps out. Others want more.) This whole game is built on losing assets already. And it is the players call to use real money to acquire more isk from another players effort. We are not talking large quantities of isk anyway. We nickle and dime the whole game to pull some more isk out while adding maintenance awareness which is just an addition to "do I have ammo? check, Do I have cap batteries? check, its my hull(which includes the wear-and-tear) at max? check. then fly.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#32 - 2012-10-31 22:59:40 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.

Moot point. Real money (RM) can be used to buy whatever ship whenever.

SP's are the only real limiter and even that's circumventable with RM - i.e. char bazaar.

We are not discussing something in-game, we are discussing adding a cost not already in game that can devalue something you bought with real money. Something that does not occur now. people generally disapprove of something that takes away value.

I am not disagreeing with the OP. I have had the same thoughts and it makes sense. But I also know that I would buy less Plex if I had to repair what I bought with it. It would seem like renting not owning.

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#33 - 2012-10-31 23:01:37 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
This would be a tax on usage

I'm happier with a "tax" on ownership rather than usage...

JOTD
Player 1> Do you ownership?
Player 2> Yes.
Big smile

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#34 - 2012-10-31 23:07:28 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy.

Moot point. Real money (RM) can be used to buy whatever ship whenever.

SP's are the only real limiter and even that's circumventable with RM - i.e. char bazaar.

We are not discussing something in-game, we are discussing adding a cost not already in game that can devalue something you bought with real money. Something that does not occur now. people generally disapprove of something that takes away value.

I am not disagreeing with the OP. I have had the same thoughts and it makes sense. But I also know that I would buy less Plex if I had to repair what I bought with it. It would seem like renting not owning.


It get's sticky when we starting saying "what I bought with real money" regardless of what it was spent on. Starts the process of "I bought this ship in a PvP game" for real money and you have right to asplode it.

We pay to play with real money. And while playing we accumulate wealth and buy ships etc. Does that now fall under the same auspice? I hope not.

(Gawd, we could end up with litigators sueing VR char Joe Bloggs because RL person George Trenbath paid RM for his ship and VR Joe blew it up. A slippery, slippery slope.)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#35 - 2012-10-31 23:59:02 UTC
Alternativelly, you could try and actually follow what is actually happening in the game. The reason for the inflation is not the amount of ISK or the size of faucets. It's because CCP removed drone alloys earlier this year. It's actually pretty easy to see - just open the market, list "Tritanium", "Pyerite" or "Nocxium" and go tho the "Market history" tab. Detect the spike, compare it to the devblog announcing drone loot removal and the enlightenment is guaranteed.

Sorry to say this, but maintenance cost is is one of the dumbest ideas for "improving" the game.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-11-01 00:12:12 UTC
There must be a less annoying way to scoop some ISK out of the game. Someone go find it before something like this gets implemented.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#37 - 2012-11-01 00:18:29 UTC
Gorn Arming wrote:
There must be a less annoying way to scoop some ISK out of the game. Someone go find it before something like this gets implemented.

They have increased ISK requirements for FW LP store in the last FW changes. That, for example, is pretty good ISK sink.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#38 - 2012-11-01 00:32:44 UTC
So, all ships to be sold by contract then?

Well, unless you want to leave a hole for repackaging.

Or reselling only by contract.

Because once a ship is repackaged, it's exactly the same as all others (or they wouldn't stack)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#39 - 2012-11-01 00:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Steve Ronuken wrote:
So, all ships to be sold by contract then?

Well, unless you want to leave a hole for repackaging.

Or reselling only by contract.

Because once a ship is repackaged, it's exactly the same as all others (or they wouldn't stack)


Repair ship to 100% and repackage. I don't like the idea of increasing cost to repair the longer you own it as OP suggests which just complicates a new complication further.
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