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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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elflorien
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2012-10-29 08:00:40 UTC
are we allowed to fleet up and do the missions for the mass test? or do we have to do five missions each?
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#382 - 2012-10-29 11:16:00 UTC
elflorien wrote:
are we allowed to fleet up and do the missions for the mass test? or do we have to do five missions each?


CCP will only give credit to whoever takes / completes the mission. So.. sorta!
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#383 - 2012-10-29 11:17:06 UTC
Adigard wrote:
elflorien wrote:
are we allowed to fleet up and do the missions for the mass test? or do we have to do five missions each?


CCP will only give credit to whoever takes / completes the mission. So.. sorta!


This man is correct. Credit goes to whoever turns the mission in.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#384 - 2012-10-29 11:19:36 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have already posted yet another idiotic bug I found: The TD effect does not show up, so I have no idea which ships are TD'ing me.


Did you bug report this?

More importantly does the effect not show up on the effects bar just above your HUD? You can right click on that and see a list of who is doing the effect on you.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#385 - 2012-10-29 11:20:58 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have already posted yet another idiotic bug I found: The TD effect does not show up, so I have no idea which ships are TD'ing me.


Did you bug report this?

More importantly does the effect not show up on the effects bar just above your HUD? You can right click on that and see a list of who is doing the effect on you.


Not in effects bar.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
redsleeper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#386 - 2012-10-29 12:30:40 UTC
I wonder, must be in Motsu or can be any npc and any place for mission ? Since some mission runner don't have access certain corp. agent lv 4 belong area of Motsu but work on different npc corp. under faction. I plan to do test run to see what up with rats AI.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#387 - 2012-10-29 13:17:50 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have already posted yet another idiotic bug I found: The TD effect does not show up, so I have no idea which ships are TD'ing me.


Did you bug report this?

More importantly does the effect not show up on the effects bar just above your HUD? You can right click on that and see a list of who is doing the effect on you.


Yes, I created a bug report.
And no, I am not an idiot, contrary to the opinion of many.

When I was webbed. the effect showed up on the overview and also in that effects bar.
TD did neither.

Clearly, you guys did not do a lot of internal testing before releasing this code.
Further, unless this issue is unique to those missions, no else has complained about that in this thread. That leads me to believe very few people are actually testing this code.

I can only imagine the carnage we are going to see Dec 5th when all the bugs not picked up become known to the masses on TQ.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#388 - 2012-10-29 13:53:38 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have already posted yet another idiotic bug I found: The TD effect does not show up, so I have no idea which ships are TD'ing me.


Did you bug report this?

More importantly does the effect not show up on the effects bar just above your HUD? You can right click on that and see a list of who is doing the effect on you.


Yes, I created a bug report.
And no, I am not an idiot, contrary to the opinion of many.

When I was webbed. the effect showed up on the overview and also in that effects bar.
TD did neither.

Clearly, you guys did not do a lot of internal testing before releasing this code.
Further, unless this issue is unique to those missions, no else has complained about that in this thread. That leads me to believe very few people are actually testing this code.

I can only imagine the carnage we are going to see Dec 5th when all the bugs not picked up become known to the masses on TQ.


I have now tested and confirmed this my self. Can I get your bug report number?

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#389 - 2012-10-29 13:54:49 UTC
redsleeper wrote:
I wonder, must be in Motsu or can be any npc and any place for mission ? Since some mission runner don't have access certain corp. agent lv 4 belong area of Motsu but work on different npc corp. under faction. I plan to do test run to see what up with rats AI.


I can set your standings with specific corporations. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#390 - 2012-10-29 14:19:26 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have already posted yet another idiotic bug I found: The TD effect does not show up, so I have no idea which ships are TD'ing me.


Did you bug report this?

More importantly does the effect not show up on the effects bar just above your HUD? You can right click on that and see a list of who is doing the effect on you.


Yes, I created a bug report.
And no, I am not an idiot, contrary to the opinion of many.

When I was webbed. the effect showed up on the overview and also in that effects bar.
TD did neither.

Clearly, you guys did not do a lot of internal testing before releasing this code.
Further, unless this issue is unique to those missions, no else has complained about that in this thread. That leads me to believe very few people are actually testing this code.

I can only imagine the carnage we are going to see Dec 5th when all the bugs not picked up become known to the masses on TQ.


I have now tested and confirmed this my self. Can I get your bug report number?


Bug # 145830
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2012-10-29 14:45:13 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Adigard wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp.


Ummm, I read the Dev Blog... did you? Did you happen to see what the second step was, or when it would occur, or how soon we'd see it, or when we'd see the eventual NPC AI be more PvP like?

Honestly just curious where you're drawing your insights from.

I'm personally all for them holding off on these changes, although we know that won't happen... and I don't see a future with a true universal PvE and PvP fit in a MMO, certainly not in this one.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947688#post1947688
There were others, but some of the content was edited out. I was never trying to say that i agreed with the direction, or that i thought it was going to be a quick process. I'd guess it'd be years, because they'd have to rewrite every mission in the game, and they don't seem to have the staff or desire to do that.



Yes they certainly have to do that because PVP fitted ship cant tank mission rats in lvl4 or rats in anoms or incursions rats etc.. All PVE content needs to be rewrited to balance PVP fits in them if so..

Also this still will ruin the game for those who uses drone boats and for those who uses multiple accounts to PVE.

So gamebraking idea this is.. I smell CCP losing tons of subcritions if this hits TQ.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#392 - 2012-10-29 15:17:25 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Adigard wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp.


Ummm, I read the Dev Blog... did you? Did you happen to see what the second step was, or when it would occur, or how soon we'd see it, or when we'd see the eventual NPC AI be more PvP like?

Honestly just curious where you're drawing your insights from.

I'm personally all for them holding off on these changes, although we know that won't happen... and I don't see a future with a true universal PvE and PvP fit in a MMO, certainly not in this one.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947688#post1947688
There were others, but some of the content was edited out. I was never trying to say that i agreed with the direction, or that i thought it was going to be a quick process. I'd guess it'd be years, because they'd have to rewrite every mission in the game, and they don't seem to have the staff or desire to do that.



Yes they certainly have to do that because PVP fitted ship cant tank mission rats in lvl4 or rats in anoms or incursions rats etc.. All PVE content needs to be rewrited to balance PVP fits in them if so..

Also this still will ruin the game for those who uses drone boats and for those who uses multiple accounts to PVE.

So gamebraking idea this is.. I smell CCP losing tons of subcritions if this hits TQ.


I am on Duality right now.
Fox Four and Highlander are in the Duality chat.
As it stands right now, there are 2 enormous problems with the AI.

1. Fox Four "tweaked" the AI since last test window, so the Ogres that I released and were ignored are now insta-attacked by the entire room of NPC's.
If you are speed-tanking, the Ogres are dead because they can't catch up.
2. The problem above is easily circumvented by a huge AI bug where the drones are ignored once you have called back a set and then re-release them.

Once CCP "fixes" the 2nd issue, all drone boats are rendered useless, since if the AI works as designed, any drone any distance from your ship is history.

As for the sub drops, indeed they will lose tons. But given all the cross-over from Dust, it will be impossible to tell how many dropped to this disaster.
Rengerel en Distel
#393 - 2012-10-29 15:55:55 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have already posted yet another idiotic bug I found: The TD effect does not show up, so I have no idea which ships are TD'ing me.


Did you bug report this?

More importantly does the effect not show up on the effects bar just above your HUD? You can right click on that and see a list of who is doing the effect on you.


Yes, I created a bug report.
And no, I am not an idiot, contrary to the opinion of many.

When I was webbed. the effect showed up on the overview and also in that effects bar.
TD did neither.

Clearly, you guys did not do a lot of internal testing before releasing this code.
Further, unless this issue is unique to those missions, no else has complained about that in this thread. That leads me to believe very few people are actually testing this code.

I can only imagine the carnage we are going to see Dec 5th when all the bugs not picked up become known to the masses on TQ.


I have now tested and confirmed this my self. Can I get your bug report number?


Bug # 145830

No one else reported it in this thread because it's a HUD bug, and it's been reported in both the open testing thread and the HUD thread. I realize you have a very high regard for your own testing, but being an ass really doesn't help anyone.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#394 - 2012-10-29 19:13:21 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:


No one else reported it in this thread because it's a HUD bug, and it's been reported in both the open testing thread and the HUD thread. I realize you have a very high regard for your own testing, but being an ass really doesn't help anyone.



I may be acting like an ass (seems t have worked out pretty well for the goons), but my actions DO NOT absolve CCP from the fact that a very critical issue (no TD'ing EWAR icons) slips by internal testing and has to be discovered by the players.
Bernard 2007
The Scarlet Storm
#395 - 2012-10-29 21:35:17 UTC
Tried this and honestly the changes are crap. Drones are already the weakest weapon system and the only real advantage they had (in PVE) was that they served as an infiite source of ammo and that you could simply release say a flight of light drones and watch them quickly dispatch an entire room full of frigates.

If this patch goes live drones will need constant attention at all times, and EVE is simply not played like that. The only thing this patch will achieve is the death of drone ships and the prevalence of all ships that do not rely on them or have them. For instance I'm likely to field a field say a fleet full of Zealots rather then the current setup with a HAMgu + Gila + Cheetah maybe also swap from exploration to plain lvl 4 missions. I just have to say, I don't see anything good coming out of this situation. You don't really have to pay attention with any of the other weapon systems, why should drones be so damn different without actually having an edge of them in the first place?
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#396 - 2012-10-29 22:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Bernard 2007 wrote:
Tried this and honestly the changes are crap. Drones are already the weakest weapon system and the only real advantage they had (in PVE) was that they served as an infiite source of ammo and that you could simply release say a flight of light drones and watch them quickly dispatch an entire room full of frigates.

If this patch goes live drones will need constant attention at all times, and EVE is simply not played like that. The only thing this patch will achieve is the death of drone ships and the prevalence of all ships that do not rely on them or have them. For instance I'm likely to field a field say a fleet full of Zealots rather then the current setup with a HAMgu + Gila + Cheetah maybe also swap from exploration to plain lvl 4 missions. I just have to say, I don't see anything good coming out of this situation. You don't really have to pay attention with any of the other weapon systems, why should drones be so damn different without actually having an edge of them in the first place?


I expect it's a round-about attempt (failed, mind) to nerf the Dual AFK Sentry Domi's that were grinding certain always re-spawning complex's that CCP fixed in a different way, and the dual frigate FW farming thing that CCP also fixed in a different way.

We certainly haven't seen any long-term plans using the new AI... I still expect drone boats to become less popular after Dec 4, and PvE to become less enjoyable after that date as well.

Still confused on the long-term payoff from all this... other than just another bullet point on a patch list.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
As for the sub drops, indeed they will lose tons. But given all the cross-over from Dust, it will be impossible to tell how many dropped to this disaster.


Always worth keeping in mind... CCP is ruining their own logged in numbers with Dust, so we'll never really know how the effects of this patch goes over with the players.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#397 - 2012-10-29 23:33:44 UTC
Any thought to allowing the movement of replacement drones from the cargo bay to the drone bay in space? Might help to soften the blow for all those drone boats.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2012-10-30 00:04:01 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Any thought to allowing the movement of replacement drones from the cargo bay to the drone bay in space? Might help to soften the blow for all those drone boats.

While this would help, it kinda removes the point of having limited drone bays to begin with depending on the limits imposed.
Mund Richard
#399 - 2012-10-30 00:21:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Any thought to allowing the movement of replacement drones from the cargo bay to the drone bay in space? Might help to soften the blow for all those drone boats.

While this would help, it kinda removes the point of having limited drone bays to begin with depending on the limits imposed.

Quite so.
I'm calling for an "ammo hangar", clearly a design flaw that it is missing! Roll

Joke aside, imagine what it would mean...
A Thorax could unleash either flights of light/medium scout drones to suit the situation, or ECM drones.
Atmo one has to make choices (mediums, 2 flights of light scouts, a flight of scout and an ECM one, ect...), it would be taken away.
Even though I'm a rabid drone-lover, not sure it would bring any good.

...Although if CCP is so set on making drones even more disposable, why the hell not have drakes with 6 flights of lights.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2012-10-30 02:49:32 UTC
So, asking for answers from any fellow drone users out there (who did more testing than I did). Assuming the issue were recall/relaunch causes drones to be forgotten by NPC's will be fixed, what is working well for pulling aggro from drones in a Domi/RS? My Ewar/RR options are limited at the moment and as such I may need to get some new skills to keep up depending on what works.