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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#161 - 2012-10-19 19:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators.
Goliath and I tangled in one of the other threads and he stated that he is not interested in how difficult this makes missions, or impossible, but only if the actual mechanic is working.

He stated that if the AI works in one mission, it will work in all missions, and that is all he cares about finding out with this test.

The only way he, Fox Four, and the other null sec zealots will scale back the devastation this does to high sec income will be when this mechanism hits Tranquility, and the posts start flying in the forums. Even then, it won't matter until sub rate drops can be directly attributed to this attack. And given all the other changes going on, plus the addition of Dust, it won't be possible for months to sort out how many players quit over this destruction of high sec PvE.

Further, why do you think no one has posted with any stats since Diagoras got fired or quit?
If there is no information provided on high sec income (Diagoras used to give precise info), then all CCP has to say is "nope, people are happy with the changes, since high sec income has shown no dropoff", and there is no way to refute it.

I am grinding as much ISK as I can now, using my Ishtar, and will be moving to a gunboat BS after Dec 4th. Drones as a PvE platform are dead after Dec 4th.

Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384
Rengerel en Distel
#162 - 2012-10-19 20:20:52 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators.
Goliath and I tangled in one of the other threads and he stated that he is not interested in how difficult this makes missions, or impossible, but only if the actual mechanic is working.

He stated that if the AI works in one mission, it will work in all missions, and that is all he cares about finding out with this test.

The only way he, Fox Four, and the other null sec zealots will scale back the devastation this does to high sec income will be when this mechanism hits Tranquility, and the posts start flying in the forums. Even then, it won't matter until sub rate drops can be directly attributed to this attack. And given all the other changes going on, plus the addition of Dust, it won't be possible for months to sort out how many players quit over this destruction of high sec PvE.

Further, why do you think no one has posted with any stats since Diagoras got fired or quit?
If there is no information provided on high sec income (Diagoras used to give precise info), then all CCP has to say is "nope, people are happy with the changes, since high sec income has shown no dropoff", and there is no way to refute it.

I am grinding as much ISK as I can now, using my Ishtar, and will be moving to a gunboat BS after Dec 4th. Drones as a PvE platform are dead after Dec 4th.

Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384


This is the actual feedback thread, please keep your whining confined to the other threads.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#163 - 2012-10-19 23:27:47 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators.
Goliath and I tangled in one of the other threads and he stated that he is not interested in how difficult this makes missions, or impossible, but only if the actual mechanic is working.

He stated that if the AI works in one mission, it will work in all missions, and that is all he cares about finding out with this test.

The only way he, Fox Four, and the other null sec zealots will scale back the devastation this does to high sec income will be when this mechanism hits Tranquility, and the posts start flying in the forums. Even then, it won't matter until sub rate drops can be directly attributed to this attack. And given all the other changes going on, plus the addition of Dust, it won't be possible for months to sort out how many players quit over this destruction of high sec PvE.

Further, why do you think no one has posted with any stats since Diagoras got fired or quit?
If there is no information provided on high sec income (Diagoras used to give precise info), then all CCP has to say is "nope, people are happy with the changes, since high sec income has shown no dropoff", and there is no way to refute it.

I am grinding as much ISK as I can now, using my Ishtar, and will be moving to a gunboat BS after Dec 4th. Drones as a PvE platform are dead after Dec 4th.

Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384


Have you tried it yet?

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#164 - 2012-10-19 23:28:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384


It's awesome that you can now hear things in your head that aren't there -- and you expect everyone else to verify it for you.

On the actual topic, will try to hop on tomorrowish. I'm really looking forward to this.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#165 - 2012-10-19 23:32:00 UTC
Mission completion will be hard in the mass test becouse structures can not be destroyed.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Rengerel en Distel
#166 - 2012-10-19 23:46:48 UTC
Trying level 4s with a rattlesnake, and light drones get aggro pretty quickly. One went into armor before the UI even showed they had launched to me. Was able to retrieve them and relaunch to less aggro, but still that seemed a little quick. I haven't tried one using heavy drones, but I can't see that going well if they get aggro.
Target painting wasn't enough to get me aggro over just the innate drone sig size.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Davith en Divalone
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2012-10-20 01:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Davith en Divalone
Just did Level 2 Smuggler Interception (Angels). Drones got frigate aggro once. The change was visible in the overview. The rats snapped back to me as soon as I recalled and didn't have a problem after I redeployed.

EDIT: Ship used was a Vexor.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#168 - 2012-10-20 03:21:50 UTC
Ran some quick missions in a Nighthawk and had very little frig aggro towards my drones.

Not even when I focussed on the larger boats and let the drones feast on the frigs.

They got aggro from frigs at some occasions but either a quick recall and redeploy or just flicking a missile at the misbehaving frig solved it.

Will break out the Rattler and run some more during the weekend.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
mkint
#169 - 2012-10-20 06:45:00 UTC
I'm still confused. Why the drone nerf?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#170 - 2012-10-20 07:55:13 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators.


By "examples" do you mean "actual events where I have run missions using drones" or do you mean "based on theory crafting and forum warrioring"?

mkint wrote:
I'm still confused. Why the drone nerf?


Partly because people were AFKing DED complexes with sentry Domis 24x7. Partly because CCP want to bring PvE more inline with PvP (that is: the AI will target the most dangerous/easiest to kill enemy, rather than whoever arrived on grid first).

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Scorpio DK
Doomheim
#171 - 2012-10-20 10:06:57 UTC
ran a sansha haven using a drone ship had no real issues with the aggro on the drones,

they would swap back between my main ship and the drones depending on what ship was doing more damage to them i guess i shot 1 specific npc with a railgun it aggro the dominix but the others focused on the drones

i did notice 1 thing that i am not sure if it is intended the npc had me warp scrambled so i attacked it with my light drones and it stopped warp scrambling me so i could recall my drones and warp off without being scrambled if i wanted to, not sure if this was intended or not

overall looks like it works, was more work to monitor the drones but had no issues completing the haven at all
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#172 - 2012-10-20 10:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
Just tested dualboxing in high-end complex (9/10) using bs+ab logi setup.

No problems at all.

It seems that bs generates much more threat and primaried 90% of time. Those aggro that goes on logi sometimes (at the end of the resp mostly) is totally mitigated by ab and single active tank module

Still, some of the complexes, requiring high dps (those with station like 8/10 of sansha and angel) will be undoable this way. as even with old bs+sentry domi setup they take veeery long time to break. Oh well, good riddance, since sanshas 8/10 usually drops nothing but box. Wasnt worth of time anyway.

PS. Need to test for new magnetometric setup later. Since current setup with tanking ship warping first and paperthin scanner/salvager/analyzer ship won't work i think
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#173 - 2012-10-20 13:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
mkint wrote:
I'm still confused. Why the drone nerf?



its not really a drone nerf its more a complex nerf...

right now i use a NH and rr domi to do 10/10 complexes...

after the expansion this will no longer be possible because the domi will drag aggro and die...

i'm still playing around but i think i will have to switch to a duel snake setup to solo these things...


though tbh i have been calling for enhanced AI for a while now... i just wish they reduced the amount of rats you have to shoot and made them harder to kill to offset...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#174 - 2012-10-20 13:18:00 UTC
i think the best way to offset the done pilots pain due to new drone aggro mechanincs would be to allow drones to be repaired while in a drone bay via using nano repair paste...

what this would do is allow a drone pilot to repair his drones while they are in the bay and this would greatly reduce the pain of drone death...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Rengerel en Distel
#175 - 2012-10-20 13:59:52 UTC
Perhaps instead of saying "drone ship" people can give actual info. I ran around 10 missions between a vexor and rattlesnake, and saw consistent drone aggro, while others are saying it was minimal. It would be nice to know if it's because of the inherent lack of other dps on drone boats vs ships that can also use drones. A destroyer that can deploy 1 drone is hardly a drone boat, for example.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#176 - 2012-10-20 14:25:43 UTC
I just tried AE4 with a Navy Domi. It was hard to test as Duci seems stuck at 10% TiDi, so even after an hour I had not done even the first room. But....

The sentries never got aggro. No issue.
When I launched the light drones to kill the frigates, they caught aggro right away, and it was rather difficult to get them back before one died. I did get it back, but if there were more than 2 frigs, the drone would have died. Or if I had lower skills or T1 drones. I think that is the issue: no way to control aggro; you launch drones and BAM! they die. Someone in chat said the same thing: Launched fighters from a carrier and they die to an alpha strike.

Losing drones is not like expending ammo, its not the cost of the loss that's the issue. Its that you have one less weapon system for the remainder of the mission. Its like losing a gun on a gun boat. Thinking of that, one way to adjust things is to increase the size of all drone bays, so more spares can be carried.

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Frozen fanfiction
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#177 - 2012-10-20 14:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps instead of saying "drone ship" people can give actual info. I ran around 10 missions between a vexor and rattlesnake, and saw consistent drone aggro, while others are saying it was minimal. It would be nice to know if it's because of the inherent lack of other dps on drone boats vs ships that can also use drones. A destroyer that can deploy 1 drone is hardly a drone boat, for example.



ok from the top of my head: (as i am at work)

drone boats =

tristan

ishkur

ishtar

vexor

myrm

domi

eos (lol)

guritas line up

ammar recons

gal tech III config that uses drone sub systems...

carriers.

new gal and ammar desi


though there are still lots of ships that have drones as a secondary dps source to take out frigs and smaller ships...

so it would be interesting to get a contrast between the two kinds of drone ships...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#178 - 2012-10-20 15:23:30 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
[...]one way to adjust things is to increase the size of all drone bays, so more spares can be carried.


And then suddenly we are screwing with PVP balance because of a PVE change.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-10-20 15:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ran pirate invasion lvl 4 against Angels in a Rattlesnake. Primarily used sentries with some use of heavies/lights. Drones drew no aggro from the spawn which initially aggresses. 2 frig rats specifically orbited me most of the entire mission without switching targets despite no outgoing DPS, RR or Ewar. Subsequent groups which were engaged with the drones targetted them initially, but switched to the RS once recalled and did not attempt to engage the drones again after being redeployed.

lvl 4 Mordu's folly 1/2. Initial wave aggressed RS on landing again however cruisers quickly switched to engage sentries once launched and firing. The cruisers maintained their focus on the sentries even with 4 small remote armor repairs being active on the main ship repping the sentry they were engaging. Subsequent cruiser spawns went strait for the drones. When recalled the cruisers switched back to the ship but upon redeployment the cruisers quickly re-engaged the drones. The BS on the other hand seem completely convinced that the drones are not worth their time despite those same drones causing them to erupt in balls of fire while my ship itself again output no RR/Ewar/DPS. Maybe they just hate the RS?

Edit: I know no feedback was requested on this but I must say the tempest looks amazing. Seriously.
tribcomm4
T A M
#180 - 2012-10-20 16:29:25 UTC
Ran the mission Vengence (lvl4 - Sanshas) in hi-sec.

Warped into first room and didn't shoot anything as i was waiting for the aggro from certain groups - whole pocket aggroed me.

Got an alt to fly into the same room and again didn't fire but the whole room started shooting him. Could only get the aggro off of me by both shooting and then one guy stopping.

Both toons are in tengus (surprise!)

Tried again with one of them fitted with an ecm module and the npc's eventually switched - not quickly though (may try remote reps or drones to switch aggro)

Dont know if the 'in space mission journal' is on tq (have not run missions for a while) but it is very awesome - makes everything so much easier.

Tribcomm4