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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#141 - 2012-10-17 18:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Quoted from another thread.
CCP FoxFour wrote:


You can find the dev blog here: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413
The comments page there is pretty long so I will try and give a few highlights:

  • Sleepers and Incursion NPC will not be changing
  • You can now actually manage aggro beyond just "target the first ship!" Things like ewar, RR, drones, and weapons all generate threat to the NPC.
  • NPC like to target things close to their own signature. So frigates on frigs/drones. You should not have the entire room suddenly switch to and insta pop your drones.


If you have any more questions or feedback please put it in the dev blog comments or the test server feedback thread.

Thanks for the clarity, I did read thru the Dev blog again, thanks for the link.

I am sill concerned though. elite frigs and cruisers could insta pop drones and very quickly kill logi's.

Losing a few more drones is not really an issue. But after your drones are gone or recalled if the preferred target of the frigs, destroyers, and cruisers is your logistics cruisers, when there are only a few BC's and battleships but dozens of smaller ships in the pocket, how are you supposed to protect them?

Adding this threat agro mechanic is a great improvement, i really like the idea behind it, but for it to work your tank class ships will need a taunt mechanic to increase threat and pull agro off the weaker ships. I am thinking more of level 5 missions and 9/10 10/10 complex ratting that is often done in small gangs.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#142 - 2012-10-17 21:51:30 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Adding this threat agro mechanic is a great improvement, i really like the idea behind it, but for it to work your tank class ships will need a taunt mechanic to increase threat and pull agro off the weaker ships. I am thinking more of level 5 missions and 9/10 10/10 complex ratting that is often done in small gangs.


There are no tank class ships. This is not Naked Elves Dancing on Mailboxes Online. There is no "Taunt" spell.

Here are the mechanisms you can use with Sleeper and Incursion rats to get their attention (in EVE PvE speak, "generate threat" or in Naked Elves speak, "generate threat"):

  1. Run a warfare link
  2. Use any form of EWAR
  3. Use a remote repper of any kind
  4. Do more DPS
  5. Be really fat, soft and slow
  6. Be a better match for the signature size of the target than anything else in your fleet


Since the new NPC AI will be using a variant of the same AI, the same attention-seeking tactics should work.

My testing plan is to try flying a three-character fleet with two T2 sentry boats and a Huginn. The Huginn will web and paint (i.e.: use EWAR) which may be enough to generate more threat than the T2 sentries. If that doesn't work, I'll be using a Scorpion (i.e.: using ECM) to generate more threat than the T2 sentries. If that doesn't work, I'll try a skirmish boosting Loki instead. Finally, I'll be trying out a Scimitar to rep the drones as they get damaged.

You could try a similar experiment yourself: fly fleets with weaker pilots in T1 interceptor frigates. See whether you can keep them alive with logistics or simply out-attention-seeking the weaker pilots :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lokiria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-10-17 22:20:30 UTC
I have a better idea than screwing up the game play. Why don't the devs get off their butts and add some content? Instead of running off players who have been here for years, Why don't you actually give people something to do besides run missions or mine or God Forbid PVP. Not everyone wants to PVP. Some of us play to relax.


I have one serious question for the folks at CCCP. Is it the dev's goal to run off anyone who doesn't PVP. You screw up mining. You screw up missions. You do not ever add any content. Yes you added incursions. And screwed them up so badly it's a waste of time to run them. Way to go.

Should the "carebears" all cancel our accounts now? This is what I'm asking of CCCP now.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#144 - 2012-10-17 22:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Lokiria wrote:
I have a better idea than screwing up the game play. Why don't the devs get off their butts and add some content?


You are the content. The PvE side of the game is really just filler, like rice or pasta in the main course of a dinner. The tasty stuff (the bolognese sauce on your pasta) is the players. Sure, it's nice to have bowties sometimes instead of spaghetti. Then there are macaroni, penne, vermicelli, egg noodles, etc: all pasta, just slightly different shapes to add novelty and hold sauces differently.

This change to NPCs will have very little impact on solo mission-runners.

If you do want more variety of pasta in your diet, it would help a lot if you treated the devs nicely, rather than telling them they've been sitting on their arses for too long. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lokiria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2012-10-17 22:35:10 UTC
I was being nice, and am just waiting on an answer from the devs.
Rengerel en Distel
#146 - 2012-10-18 01:06:02 UTC
Lokiria wrote:
I was being nice, and am just waiting on an answer from the devs.


An answer to what? Why they aren't adding new "content"? What content could they add that would be considered new?

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#147 - 2012-10-18 14:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Mara Rinn wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Adding this threat agro mechanic is a great improvement, i really like the idea behind it, but for it to work your tank class ships will need a taunt mechanic to increase threat and pull agro off the weaker ships. I am thinking more of level 5 missions and 9/10 10/10 complex ratting that is often done in small gangs.


There are no tank class ships. This is not Naked Elves Dancing on Mailboxes Online. There is no "Taunt" spell.

Here are the mechanisms you can use with Sleeper and Incursion rats to get their attention (in EVE PvE speak, "generate threat" or in Naked Elves speak, "generate threat"):

  1. Run a warfare link
  2. Use any form of EWAR
  3. Use a remote repper of any kind
  4. Do more DPS
  5. Be really fat, soft and slow
  6. Be a better match for the signature size of the target than anything else in your fleet


Since the new NPC AI will be using a variant of the same AI, the same attention-seeking tactics should work.

My testing plan is to try flying a three-character fleet with two T2 sentry boats and a Huginn. The Huginn will web and paint (i.e.: use EWAR) which may be enough to generate more threat than the T2 sentries. If that doesn't work, I'll be using a Scorpion (i.e.: using ECM) to generate more threat than the T2 sentries. If that doesn't work, I'll try a skirmish boosting Loki instead. Finally, I'll be trying out a Scimitar to rep the drones as they get damaged.

You could try a similar experiment yourself: fly fleets with weaker pilots in T1 interceptor frigates. See whether you can keep them alive with logistics or simply out-attention-seeking the weaker pilots :)

So 5 out of the 6 threat generation mechanics will cause NPC's to attack support ships rather than the ships tanked to absorb the damage? And this is supposed to be a Fix?

In what way is there no tank class? What are battle ships with over 100k ehp? Ships that sacrifice DPS for more tank to absorb incoming damage while other more squishy high DPS ships dish out the big damage. Then you have logistics ships repair/heal the others. if you do not see the parallels your are blind.

A heavily tanked BS is as much a tank class ship as a logistics is a healer class ship. If CCP wants to modify agro mechanics to a threat generation more comparable to mainstream MMO's than the agro management mechanics that go along with the threat mechanics also need to be added. How is a high tank low DPS ship going to hold agro off a low tank high DPS ship if it has no mechanic to generate more threat than the high DPS ship? How much threat will a logi with 4 large shield transfers generate? I am not speaking of the current game mechanics but the proposed changes in the "Brains NOM NOM" dev blog, and related discussions.

Currently when in a small gang running level 5 missions or 9/10 10/10 plex's you warp in the heavy tanked BS first to pull agro then bring in the support and logistics. Without agro management your logi's will die as they are just cruisers. Without logi alot of the game content currently available to small gangs will require larger fleets.

I agree that EVE is not a "Naked Elves Dancing on Mailboxes" type of game. But the proposed changes to agro mechanics will make it much closer to that kind of game. One of the things I have loved about EVE since I started playing, is that it is not just like all the other MMO's with a new skin. The mechanics are completely different. But when I read a dev blog that seems to indicate they are shifting EVE mechanics in that direction, I do not like it.

In my experience many of these missions and site will have a number of Battleship rats but usually 3-4 times as many frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. If your gang is 3 BS's and a logi, these numerous smaller rats are going to default to the ships closest to there own size, i.e. the logi. What are the chances of a logi tanking 15-20 cruiser and smaller size ships while your BS's are only holding agro on the larger ships.

Please correct me if I have miss interpreted the intended changes. But if it is going to work this way it could very well be game breaking. At least for small gang PVE.

In theory the new argo mechanics sound great. But I fear when actually implemented it will cause more problems than it solves.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2012-10-18 16:19:56 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Drone users:
I flew a Dominix into Angel Extravaganza, I began with taking aggro, then I launched light drones to kill off the frigates. While my light drones were out the frigates switched their fire to them, but I dispatched them quickly enough that it was of no concern. Then I switched to heavies and moved on. The whole mission maybe took me a few minutes longer, but based on how long the overall mission took it was not that much of a change. I didn't lose a drone through out it either. So if our "nerf" to drone users is that they have to pay more attention to the game and interact with it, well we can live with that.


ok, but more minutes to run a mission = less isk/hour... this nerfed dominix and all drone boats on running missions... . well if the signature radius of drones was a little smaller and there were a Hi-Slot module to buff drones HP or damage these ships would be usefull again.......

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#149 - 2012-10-18 16:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

So 5 out of the 6 threat generation mechanics will cause NPC's to attack support ships rather than the ships tanked to absorb the damage? And this is supposed to be a Fix?

In what way is there no tank class? What are battle ships with over 100k ehp? Ships that sacrifice DPS for more tank to absorb incoming damage while other more squishy high DPS ships dish out the big damage. Then you have logistics ships repair/heal the others. if you do not see the parallels your are blind.

A heavily tanked BS is as much a tank class ship as a logistics is a healer class ship. If CCP wants to modify agro mechanics to a threat generation more comparable to mainstream MMO's than the agro management mechanics that go along with the threat mechanics also need to be added. How is a high tank low DPS ship going to hold agro off a low tank high DPS ship if it has no mechanic to generate more threat than the high DPS ship? How much threat will a logi with 4 large shield transfers generate? I am not speaking of the current game mechanics but the proposed changes in the "Brains NOM NOM" dev blog, and related discussions.

Currently when in a small gang running level 5 missions or 9/10 10/10 plex's you warp in the heavy tanked BS first to pull agro then bring in the support and logistics. Without agro management your logi's will die as they are just cruisers. Without logi alot of the game content currently available to small gangs will require larger fleets.

I agree that EVE is not a "Naked Elves Dancing on Mailboxes" type of game. But the proposed changes to agro mechanics will make it much closer to that kind of game. One of the things I have loved about EVE since I started playing, is that it is not just like all the other MMO's with a new skin. The mechanics are completely different. But when I read a dev blog that seems to indicate they are shifting EVE mechanics in that direction, I do not like it.

In my experience many of these missions and site will have a number of Battleship rats but usually 3-4 times as many frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. If your gang is 3 BS's and a logi, these numerous smaller rats are going to default to the ships closest to there own size, i.e. the logi. What are the chances of a logi tanking 15-20 cruiser and smaller size ships while your BS's are only holding agro on the larger ships.

Please correct me if I have miss interpreted the intended changes. But if it is going to work this way it could very well be game breaking. At least for small gang PVE.

In theory the new argo mechanics sound great. But I fear when actually implemented it will cause more problems than it solves.


So the AI is going after softer, high-value targets like logi, instead of wasting all their DPS on some overtanked BS that's going to soak all the damage anyway? That sounds actually like a smart AI. Cool

Also, how can this be game breaking if a similar AI has already been implemented in Incursions? I'd say Vanguards classify as small gang PVE and those work fine (AI-wise). Besides: It won't be long before players figure out how to game this improved AI as well (unless CCP makes it more random). And it's not like Lv4 missions and most of the complexes weren't already mostly done solo anyway.

One thing I wonder myself though, not in the position to test: the blog says the AI will favor same-sized ships, but will that mean the AI now also splits its damage over multiple targets? I've played logi in HQ sites, but split damage doesn't happen that often and seems to have to do more with different targets between separate waves.

It would also be nice if the AI could learn when it becomes pointless to shoot at a target and switch, because they are out of range or are being speedtanked.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#150 - 2012-10-18 17:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Tobiaz wrote:

So the AI is going after softer, high-value targets like logi, instead of wasting all their DPS on some overtanked BS that's going to soak all the damage anyway? That sounds actually like a smart AI. Cool

Also, how can this be game breaking if a similar AI has already been implemented in Incursions? I'd say Vanguards classify as small gang PVE and those work fine (AI-wise). Besides: It won't be long before players figure out how to game this improved AI as well (unless CCP makes it more random). And it's not like Lv4 missions and most of the complexes weren't already mostly done solo anyway.

One thing I wonder myself though, not in the position to test: the blog says the AI will favor same-sized ships, but will that mean the AI now also splits its damage over multiple targets? I've played logi in HQ sites, but split damage doesn't happen that often and seems to have to do more with different targets between separate waves.

It would also be nice if the AI could learn when it becomes pointless to shoot at a target and switch, because they are out of range or are being speedtanked.


Smart AI and Dumb players leads to a lot of frustration and cancelled accounts. Cancelled accounts hurt an MMO no matter what type of players it is that cancelled.

Since when can you run a Vangard with 3-5 ships? That is small gang PVE. While Vangaurds are certainly no where near the massive fleets seen in null sec sov war. A small gang is 3-5 ships not 9-12. 9-12 ships requires an organized fleet with an experienced FC to actually work. A small gang can be multiboxed by a single player.

I was talking about level 5 missions not level 4 and 9/10 and 10/10 DED sites. The only way to solo those is with a carrier. Any thing sub cap you need a small gang.

I agree that player will learn to adapt and change the way they play to suit the new AI. But how many will quit before that happens. From what I have seen in MMO's in the past most players will rage quit rather than adapt and change their play style. You can say good riddance, but in an MMO declining population means death of the game. EVE has done well to survive for over 9 years. I would hate to see it take a dive because the developers over looked something so significant.

Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. But I have experienced game changing patches in games many times before and it has never ended well. SOE developers insisted that the NGE patch was the right thing to do, yet it still resulted in near death of SWG which it never recovered from.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#151 - 2012-10-18 22:26:22 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. But I have experienced game changing patches in games many times before and it has never ended well. SOE developers insisted that the NGE patch was the right thing to do, yet it still resulted in near death of SWG which it never recovered from.


This won't be a NGE moment, but there will be a fair chunk of player's having just slightly less fun at PvE afterwards.

Apparently, that's the goal though. I guess like everything else, it'll be awesome after 18 months.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#152 - 2012-10-18 22:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


Smart AI and Dumb players leads to a lot of frustration and cancelled accounts. Cancelled accounts hurt an MMO no matter what type of players it is that cancelled.

Since when can you run a Vangard with 3-5 ships? That is small gang PVE. While Vangaurds are certainly no where near the massive fleets seen in null sec sov war. A small gang is 3-5 ships not 9-12. 9-12 ships requires an organized fleet with an experienced FC to actually work. A small gang can be multiboxed by a single player.

I was talking about level 5 missions not level 4 and 9/10 and 10/10 DED sites. The only way to solo those is with a carrier. Any thing sub cap you need a small gang.

I agree that player will learn to adapt and change the way they play to suit the new AI. But how many will quit before that happens. From what I have seen in MMO's in the past most players will rage quit rather than adapt and change their play style. You can say good riddance, but in an MMO declining population means death of the game. EVE has done well to survive for over 9 years. I would hate to see it take a dive because the developers over looked something so significant.

Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. But I have experienced game changing patches in games many times before and it has never ended well. SOE developers insisted that the NGE patch was the right thing to do, yet it still resulted in near death of SWG which it never recovered from.


If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%

You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#153 - 2012-10-18 22:44:07 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:

If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%

You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.


Fairly certain the new AI has been proven to add zero difficulty to the Dual AFK Domi setup... Can't imagine how this change will impact multi-boxers without also impacting real live player's though.

And while comparing Incursion 'fun' to mission fun... are you also remembering to compare the profit? Or is that totally absent from your equation?
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#154 - 2012-10-18 23:10:48 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:

If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%

You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.


Fairly certain the new AI has been proven to add zero difficulty to the Dual AFK Domi setup... Can't imagine how this change will impact multi-boxers without also impacting real live player's though.

And while comparing Incursion 'fun' to mission fun... are you also remembering to compare the profit? Or is that totally absent from your equation?


There are still mass tests coming. Who knows how much the AI template will be altered after that. I wouldn't be surprised if CCP pays extra attention to the Domis and Rattlers on the test server.

As for profitability... with all the downtime, running HQs really isn't that profitable yet it's very popular. Ofcourse that's mostly because of the social aspect. Just as there are mission runners that are determined to grind missions solo with their multi-box fleet, ignoring other, more profitable PVE, because it requires teamplay.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2012-10-18 23:23:30 UTC
I am so excited
This should liven up high Sec



I now have to find the time to play this weekend

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Rengerel en Distel
#156 - 2012-10-19 02:05:57 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Adigard wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:

If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%

You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.


Fairly certain the new AI has been proven to add zero difficulty to the Dual AFK Domi setup... Can't imagine how this change will impact multi-boxers without also impacting real live player's though.

And while comparing Incursion 'fun' to mission fun... are you also remembering to compare the profit? Or is that totally absent from your equation?


There are still mass tests coming. Who knows how much the AI template will be altered after that. I wouldn't be surprised if CCP pays extra attention to the Domis and Rattlers on the test server.

As for profitability... with all the downtime, running HQs really isn't that profitable yet it's very popular. Ofcourse that's mostly because of the social aspect. Just as there are mission runners that are determined to grind missions solo with their multi-box fleet, ignoring other, more profitable PVE, because it requires teamplay.


As was said in the other thread i believe, WHs and Incursions were developed with the improved AI in mind. Nothing else in the game has been, so everything else that has npc AI is being altered. They've already had to go back to the old AI in some cases because the site wasn't designed to not have aggro set on warpin. The testing is fast approaching though, so at least we can finally stop all these "what if" and doom and gloom posts.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-10-19 09:09:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
CCP FoxFour-- I notice you haven't responded to people's questions regarding player ships attacking ratters in sites. Will the NPCs aggro the attacking player?

If this is the case it will need to be changed, seeing as the types of ship that are typically capable of getting a tackle on a ratter (covops, bombers, interdictors, inties, etc) are generally extremely fragile and will not be able to deal with incoming dps from both the rats and the ratter. It's already extremely difficult to grab ratters before they can warp out to a safe location, please don't make it even harder.


The balance on this issue is something we are discussing internally and still play testing. I have not responded because we are still not 100% sure if we want to change anything and if so what. :)


That's what we like to hear :)


Or just adapt and use a Proteus, the definitive heavy cloaky tackle of w-space.

Aggro-switching to attacking players is an awesome game mechanic, forcing attackers to think. More variables on field is always a good thing.

Add more scramming rats so the ratters can't always warp away!



Maybe you're not aware, but a stealth bomber is often the only type of ship in the game that stands a reasonable chance of tackling a ratter, since it is the only type of ship with a high base scan res, the ability to warp cloaked, and no sensor recalibration time after decloaking. So, as much as we'd just love to adapt (I would love for CCP to introduce something bigger and tankier with the aforementioned attributes!) there's simply no other option at this time.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#158 - 2012-10-19 17:52:45 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Maybe you're not aware, but a stealth bomber is often the only type of ship in the game that stands a reasonable chance of tackling a ratter, since it is the only type of ship with a high base scan res, the ability to warp cloaked, and no sensor recalibration time after decloaking. So, as much as we'd just love to adapt (I would love for CCP to introduce something bigger and tankier with the aforementioned attributes!) there's simply no other option at this time.


And the tradeoff for all that power is a frail ship.

I'd love a heavier ship with no sensor recalibration too, but it would become the defacto hunting first tackler and really shake up the game.

In the meantime, train cloak to V and use the rigs that lower the recalibration time.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
John Henke
Decompression Services
#159 - 2012-10-19 19:18:34 UTC
I just logged in to Duality and started missioning.

My first impression of the new NPC-AI is, that is much too aggressive.

I was doing Intercept the Saboteurs in my CNR. In the second stage i lost 4 of my 8 Hobgoblins II within seconds. I recalled them 2 or 3 times. After restarting 1 or 2 of them have been killed almost immediately.
Rengerel en Distel
#160 - 2012-10-19 19:19:28 UTC
Trying a few level 1s in a Vexor, and I don't always get aggro at all. If i destroy 5 out of 7 ships, the others eventually pick me up and start firing. If i launch light drones, they'll switch to the drones. As there's no indicator to really know which is hitting which drone, i can't tell if they pick different drones, then switch, or if they're picking individual drones from the start. If i then recall the drones, i often don't pick up aggro again.

Tried a level 1 with a rattlesnake, just to get a large size difference, and it was nearly impossible for me to get aggro from the drones. I was firing missiles and target painting, and it didn't seem to have any effect. If any ewar is supposed to draw aggro from the drones, it's not quite working.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.