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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

First post
Author
Womyn Power
Broski Bad End
#121 - 2012-10-03 15:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Womyn Power
First off I want to say that I like your dedication to making eve a better game for everyone, and your zeal for doing it seems to be pretty amazing from what the eve playerbase is used to, so thanks for that.

On the topic of the proposed changes, with regard to tackling ratters in general (and bringing new players on missions/to anoms/etc) have you considered the fact that bar Serpentis pirates, all pirates have something that, when switching to a frigate will either minmatar: target paint (making it basically one shottable by even the elite frigates), amarr: neut (no cap to point or even AB), or caldari: jamming out the frigate (based on the npcs high jam strength vs a frigs low sensor strength). Another point of concern is EWAR and the AIs tendency to prioritize targets who are actively using EWAR (such as scrams, jams, painters, webs, etc) Have you considered the effects of this with tackling frigates in the aforementioned anoms? (example being, warp into a minmatar anom to catch a ratter, scram ratter, instantly locked and painted by all the elite frigs/cruisers in the pocket and killed literally instantly.)

With sweeping changes come a lot of unintended consquiences and I really hope you don't forsake an entire playstyle in this game for what you think is a good (and needed) change right now.

Down the line, making ratters harder to hunt in null simply solidifies the fact that null as it is now, is ironically safer than highsec, simply because people know to be on guard. Making the rats ASSIST the ratters whom they are killing is a fairly laughable solution to this problem.

I suggest making a system whereby if you kill a ratter in any anom, you gain faction standing with said pirates, and at a certain level (+5 possibly?) the rats in said anoms simply will not attack you unless you take criminal action against said NPCs in said anom (along with losing standing for taking a hostile action against said npcs). This would allow you to keep your proposed changes and also alleviate entirely the concerns that face the ratter hunters, while also adding a cool roleplaying mechanic (defending the npcs space as a player, becoming 'blue' with the npcs as you have a long history of having protected them, etc.) I think changes like this are the way you need to take the game to make it a richer experience and I look forward to hearing what direction you end up taking this all, as it has a huge effect on whether or not my alliance exists come winter expansion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, this is gonna make bots spike in terms of popularity, not only do you have to not worry about awoxers (lol your own awoxing frig will die before you can warp to the rat) but with pocket concord it's just another layer of security in nullsec, which is definitely NOT needed.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#122 - 2012-10-03 15:35:35 UTC
Yes, as Womyn states there is some significant issues to this change..
It seems wierd that the rats should agro on someone not aiding their current target, or beeing a threat to them..
Not very intelligent of the new rat intelligence really :P
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#123 - 2012-10-03 16:14:10 UTC
Singira wrote:
Yes, as Womyn states there is some significant issues to this change..
It seems wierd that the rats should agro on someone not aiding their current target, or beeing a threat to them..
Not very intelligent of the new rat intelligence really :P



Not really.

Imagine you're in a PvP gang, we'll call them "Blue".

Now imagine you are fighting a rival gang, we'll call them "Red".

Now imagine in the middle of this fight, with your overview showing all the neutrals on the right hand side of the screen, someone else flies in who is also neutral, but they are mega easy to kill.

Who will you shoot? You don't know who the other person is assisting, apart from the fact it's not "you" as you're the enemy of that person.

You could argue that, once they attack the "Red" gang they would realise, but again how long would it take a player to realise?

You wouldn't fly a singular PvP frigate into a massive PvP fight when you're on neither side because the players would be smart enough to kill you too. Now the NPCs are smart enough too ;)

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#124 - 2012-10-03 16:45:02 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Singira wrote:
Yes, as Womyn states there is some significant issues to this change..
It seems wierd that the rats should agro on someone not aiding their current target, or beeing a threat to them..
Not very intelligent of the new rat intelligence really :P



Not really.

Imagine you're in a PvP gang, we'll call them "Blue".

Now imagine you are fighting a rival gang, we'll call them "Red".

Now imagine in the middle of this fight, with your overview showing all the neutrals on the right hand side of the screen, someone else flies in who is also neutral, but they are mega easy to kill.

Who will you shoot? You don't know who the other person is assisting, apart from the fact it's not "you" as you're the enemy of that person.

You could argue that, once they attack the "Red" gang they would realise, but again how long would it take a player to realise?

You wouldn't fly a singular PvP frigate into a massive PvP fight when you're on neither side because the players would be smart enough to kill you too. Now the NPCs are smart enough too ;)


Only problem is, this is rats and not a PvP gang..
This is the stupid stuff we have to do to pay for our PvP..

If you were in fact in a PvP battle and someone warped in and started shooting at the same guy you were shooting at..
You would have to be fairly stupid to primary that guy over your original target.
Allso considering the new target is "mega easy to kill" they should in fact not pose any significant threat..

I see why your current affiliation alliancewise would have you argue for this game to be turned into a 3D spaceversion of farmville, however I think it would be a mistake cause it would remove a fair chunk of playstyles and thereby likely allso a good chunck of players..
But I guess a safe, everyone wins, Space-WoW could be one way to go, I just think it would be a mistake.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#125 - 2012-10-04 13:13:20 UTC
Singira wrote:
If you were in fact in a PvP battle and someone warped in and started shooting at the same guy you were shooting at..
You would have to be fairly stupid to primary that guy over your original target.
Allso considering the new target is "mega easy to kill" they should in fact not pose any significant threat..


Yes and no. If I'm engaged in combat with some dudes and a third party warps in and starts shooting those dudes, I have no assurance that the third party won't turn around and shoot me the red hot second that the field is clear, or won't start looting the wrecks before I can get there, or isn't providing a warpin/cyno for friends who will kill everyone indiscriminately, and so on and so forth. But I might be willing to run the risk of that if the dude is significantly helping me out and I'm losing, or if they have a history of helping me, as would be the case in the idea of gaining standings with a faction as you get on killmails of things shooting at them or what have you. Any decision-making based on anything other than faction standings would probably be tricky to implement, but it would be interesting and far more lifelike.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#126 - 2012-10-04 23:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
Singira wrote:
If you were in fact in a PvP battle and someone warped in and started shooting at the same guy you were shooting at..
You would have to be fairly stupid to primary that guy over your original target.
Allso considering the new target is "mega easy to kill" they should in fact not pose any significant threat..


Yes and no. If I'm engaged in combat with some dudes and a third party warps in and starts shooting those dudes, I have no assurance that the third party won't turn around and shoot me the red hot second that the field is clear, or won't start looting the wrecks before I can get there, or isn't providing a warpin/cyno for friends who will kill everyone indiscriminately, and so on and so forth. But I might be willing to run the risk of that if the dude is significantly helping me out and I'm losing, or if they have a history of helping me, as would be the case in the idea of gaining standings with a faction as you get on killmails of things shooting at them or what have you. Any decision-making based on anything other than faction standings would probably be tricky to implement, but it would be interesting and far more lifelike.


I can imagine the decision, and it should be fairly obvious to anyone.

Scout report "Hey boss, got a stealth bomber warping in."

FC "hmm, primary is at 65% and his tank is holding, that new SB can be insta-popped fairly fast and at least we can walk out of here with a kill mail to post. What's that SB doing?"

Fleet member "Hey boss? He's locked the primary, dropped a scram on him."

FC "wut?"

Fleet member 2 "Hey boss, the primary is at 50% now, what do we do?"

FC "Holy! Fire ze missiles at the primary, who cares what the Stealth bomber is doing, that BS has killed 25 of our friends and has about a billion more ISK in faction mods for a much shinier kill mail".

No? If your alliance FC's do something different, oh please... let us know!
Rycoon Tadar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2012-10-08 11:14:22 UTC
Soundwave: “I can, with virtual certainty, say that this December we’re going do something about cap and supercap presence in anomalies. That is the biggest faucet we have right now.”

the Ai "advance" will not only "solve" this problem.. we already heard carrier pilots complaining about drones getting abnormal often aggro -> their getting crippled. mission accomplished?

but this "switching targets mechanic" also hits everybody that is playing already in a team..

getting dedicated tanks and setting "guard" mechanics with drones... is something we players loved to do and cant keep after receiving the new NPCs.

There are Drone-friendly Anoms like the Forlorn Hub which where the only Hubs a drone-based Pilot can enter without worrying all time about getting drone aggro. Youre not gettin the best ticks there but have a bit of an "easy modus"
- risk vs reward = ok

i dont support any change to this! Even if this sounds like whine and bad arguments i want to state my opinion about it.

switching targets shall not affect drones! please cpp develope better ideas to nerf carriers in Anoms.

Kind Regards.
Doddy
Excidium.
#128 - 2012-10-09 15:25:59 UTC
Dvd22 wrote:
DrakenDD wrote:
Well i did a bit of testing today with Anomalies, with ishtar and sentry drones and everything was fine as far I could see.

Now tried same with Carrier, and well experiencewas not fun.

2 our 3 tries all NPC swapped targets to fighters as soon as I launched.
I tried same with Sentry and same happened, and at one point had to keep recalling my drones upto 5 times after each launching them because all npc switch targets.

Brought in Tengu with carrier on field, and all npc swap over to that on warp in, drop drones and well npc went back.

Left Tengu on field, dock carrier and then warp in a Ishtar, and all NPC swap targets to Isthar.
Drones drones on ishtar, and all 75% of npc swaped to Drones.


Conclusion:
single ishtar with sentry in anomaly seem fine
single Carrier with sentry or fighter, pain pain pain, to point of not playable, unpredictable.
multiple ishtar seem ok, but i didnt get to much time for test.
Don't ask what two carriers was like, felt i was playing pingball.


So now solo carriers will be totally usseless in pve, for a ship with that isk and sp costs feels very unfair.

To kill a rat a turret boat user only has to target, press f1 and forget about it (if his ship has the proper tank).
In the other hand a droneboat user must put three times more attention for lower dps thanks to the travel time of his drones every time the rats switch target.

Solution:

Agrresive drones catch agro.

Passive drones dont catch agro.

It resolves the issue with afking in drone boats and dont hit active drone users.

Sorry for my englishRoll


You guys do know carriers can use rr right?
stanislav romanoff
What Shall We Call It
#129 - 2012-10-10 17:06:54 UTC
Adigard wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
Singira wrote:
If you were in fact in a PvP battle and someone warped in and started shooting at the same guy you were shooting at..
You would have to be fairly stupid to primary that guy over your original target.
Allso considering the new target is "mega easy to kill" they should in fact not pose any significant threat..


Yes and no. If I'm engaged in combat with some dudes and a third party warps in and starts shooting those dudes, I have no assurance that the third party won't turn around and shoot me the red hot second that the field is clear, or won't start looting the wrecks before I can get there, or isn't providing a warpin/cyno for friends who will kill everyone indiscriminately, and so on and so forth. But I might be willing to run the risk of that if the dude is significantly helping me out and I'm losing, or if they have a history of helping me, as would be the case in the idea of gaining standings with a faction as you get on killmails of things shooting at them or what have you. Any decision-making based on anything other than faction standings would probably be tricky to implement, but it would be interesting and far more lifelike.


I can imagine the decision, and it should be fairly obvious to anyone.

Scout report "Hey boss, got a stealth bomber warping in."

FC "hmm, primary is at 65% and his tank is holding, that new SB can be insta-popped fairly fast and at least we can walk out of here with a kill mail to post. What's that SB doing?"

Fleet member "Hey boss? He's locked the primary, dropped a scram on him."

FC "wut?"

Fleet member 2 "Hey boss, the primary is at 50% now, what do we do?"

FC "Holy! Fire ze missiles at the primary, who cares what the Stealth bomber is doing, that BS has killed 25 of our friends and has about a billion more ISK in faction mods for a much shinier kill mail".

No? If your alliance FC's do something different, oh please... let us know!



It would go something more like

FC "hmm, primary is at 65% and his tank is holding, that new SB can be insta-popped fairly fast and at least we can walk out of here with a kill mail to post. What's that SB doing?"

Fleet member "Hey boss? He's locked the primary, dropped a scram on him."

FC "wut?"

Fleet member 2 "Hey boss, sb also lit a cyno and there are caps on the field killing all of us. but the primary is also dead"

FC " guess we should of taken care of any possible cyno ship first"
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#130 - 2012-10-11 02:41:19 UTC
an Idea, that may help both sides come to the solution more efficiently.

Make drones, so they are much cheaper to acquire/produce, Perhaps, dare I say it, Meta 1-2-3-4 drones and cut manufacture costs by 75% on all drones across the board.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-10-12 15:52:44 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
an Idea, that may help both sides come to the solution more efficiently.

Make drones, so they are much cheaper to acquire/produce, Perhaps, dare I say it, Meta 1-2-3-4 drones and cut manufacture costs by 75% on all drones across the board.

That could work, but a nice drone overhaul would be betterLol

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#132 - 2012-10-17 12:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP FoxFour
Hey guys,

This weekend Duality will be coming back online with a focus of testing the new NPC changes. I will personally be online for as much of it as possible, especially during the day on Monday to help people with the testing, to do the testing myself, and to get your feedback.


  • Duality will be online starting Friday October 19th.
  • It should be online by 13:00, although to be honest I hope to see it online a lot sooner.
  • Duality will remain online until the morning of Tuesday October 23rd.
  • If you are going to be on Duality join the channel Duality. I will be in that channel offering any support I can for people testing, answering questions, and testing myself. If you need to be moved I will be happy to help you from that channel while I am online.


Unfortunetly I will actually be out of the office on Friday during the day though. :(

To connect to Duality:
Quote:
To access Duality copy your main Eve install to a different folder.
Then create a shortcut to that folder's launcher (eve.exe).
Right click on that shortcut on the desktop, go into "Properties" and in the "Target" field put a space after the last entry in the field and type /server:87.237.38.60 to force the launcher to point towards Duality.
Once you run that shortcut the launcher will download the most recent patch for Duality and get you ready to connect.


MASS TEST!
On top of this we would like to run a mass test on Monday, October 22nd, at 14:00 EVE time. During this time we would like to test the performance impact of the new AI having been applied to everything. To do this properly we will need as many people as possible running missions in one of the following systems:

  • Motsu
  • Dodixie
  • Ordion
  • Emolgranlan


Those who complete a minimum of 10 missions in one of those four systems between the hours of 14:00 and 18:00 on Monday October 22nd will receive 2 million SP on both Buckingham and Duality. Both CCP Bettik, myself, and other members of team Five 0 will be online during this time. Again, please join the Duality chat channel during this mass test and we will do whatever we can to help assist you in testing missions.

CCP FoxFour

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-10-17 13:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
any chance we can get more sites to spawn ? especially mazes and Fleet Staging Points
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#134 - 2012-10-17 13:14:09 UTC
Ship balancing changes also or just the AI?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#135 - 2012-10-17 13:22:47 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
any chance we can get more sites to spawn ? especially mazes and Fleet Staging Points


While I am online that is one of the things I will be doing; spawning sites that is. I am going to purposely try and be on as much as possible to do this, but again I will be out of the office on Friday. Bad timing I know, but I wanted the test server up as soon as possible.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Harraria
Perkone
#136 - 2012-10-17 13:58:02 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Those who complete a minimum of 10 missions in one of those four systems between the hours of 14:00 and 18:00 on Monday October 22nd will receive 2 million SP on both Buckingham and Duality.


What if we run missions cooperatively or with alts? Will 10 missions between 2 or more characters still award all those characters SP?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#137 - 2012-10-17 14:04:34 UTC
Harraria wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Those who complete a minimum of 10 missions in one of those four systems between the hours of 14:00 and 18:00 on Monday October 22nd will receive 2 million SP on both Buckingham and Duality.


What if we run missions cooperatively or with alts? Will 10 missions between 2 or more characters still award all those characters SP?


Passing your question along to the engineer who will be doing the tracking. Hope to get you an answer soon.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#138 - 2012-10-17 14:25:42 UTC
Harraria wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Those who complete a minimum of 10 missions in one of those four systems between the hours of 14:00 and 18:00 on Monday October 22nd will receive 2 million SP on both Buckingham and Duality.


What if we run missions cooperatively or with alts? Will 10 missions between 2 or more characters still award all those characters SP?

We're not going to make this massively complicated I'm afraid. For each mission, only the character that actually owns the mission will get a "mission point". A character must get 10 "mission points" himself. I won't be merging points across multiple characters.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law

Harraria
Perkone
#139 - 2012-10-17 14:36:44 UTC
Do higher level missions give more points?
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#140 - 2012-10-17 17:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
I personally hope to test this out. I have concerns about how heavily this will affect agro management. I currently run missions with multiple characters. Not concerned about the SP boost although it will be appreciated. But concerned about my primary tank holding agro off my DPS.

Will this update be on a new mirror? the two mil SP won't mean much if my character on buckingham is still two months behind the same toon on tranquility.

I am concerned that the impact on mission runners and ratters will be much higher than anticipated. Agro management is a major issue for most avid mission runners. If this makes agro management impossible it may be game breaking.

To anyone reading this. I believe this change will affect mission runners and ratters much more than miners. Get on duallity this weekend and help test. if this does end up being game breaking we will want it fixed before it goes live. Complaining on the forums about it, after it hits tranquility won't help much.