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Moderation discussion thread

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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#61 - 2012-10-16 13:45:11 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
... this thread is a response to the fact that a certain degree of overmoderation did happen sometimes. As we have said, mistakes happen and sometimes we are wrong.
Considering how some posters will latch upon that statement and proceed to (verbally) beat you about the head and shoulders with it, that must've been hard to write. Thanks. Go get a beer* on me; you've earned it.

CCP Gargant wrote:
By doing this we are trying to give you binoculars to watch the watchers, so to speak.
Oh please, please, please go troll the art dept folks, telling them some story about how you've made mention of binoculars and now they simply must get some ready for the NEX for the Winter release. Bonus points if you can get get other Community team members to join in the trolling.

MDD

* Cut it out with that girlie white wine. Oh god, it's probably Riesling isn't it? Twisted
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#62 - 2012-10-16 14:02:46 UTC
:) one thing I have wondered about... while there has been over moderation, why haven't threads like "like and get likes" "what is the avatar above thinking" and anything similar been locked as they have all been contentless by comparison to other posts that have been locked and such, also duplicate for having many similar threads. :)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#63 - 2012-10-16 14:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
I am a bit annoyed by the

Some random ISD wrote:
Hope this helps


sign of all ISD posts.
Please stop.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#64 - 2012-10-16 14:36:10 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
I am a bit annoyed by the

Some random ISD wrote:
Hope this helps


sign of all ISD posts.
Please stop.

By "sign" I'm reading that as "closure"; if I'm mis-reading your statement, please clarify.

I don't disagree with you; I can see where it has a tinge of flippancy, although on balance I think the ISD writer is being sincere. Do you have a suggestion for a better closure, or do you propose that the ISD, as a rule, do without posting closures? I am perhaps an especially poor choice to weigh in on this, as I always close my posts with:

MDD
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#65 - 2012-10-16 14:50:21 UTC
Have a nice day,
See you soon,
Take care,
Fly safe,
Feel free to ask if you have anything else on your mind

ET
CETERA
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#66 - 2012-10-16 15:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
Humor does seem to be addressed with a bias. Several threads have been allowed to exist that would have been locked immediately if they had been started today.

Is there a process where a global moderator consensus can be applied to locking a humor thread? Would a dislike/like function for only the moderators be helpful in resolving this?

If you don't want to have a Humor Suspect taking off before getting a moderator consensus can be reached use a flag that locks the thread temporarily - one publicly visible.

ISD moderation is subject to petition, but I wonder if petitioning would really fix the unfairly locked threads problem because it would still be dependent on one person's sense of humor, which is definitely going to have culture bias in it.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#67 - 2012-10-16 15:09:01 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Have a nice day,
See you soon,
Take care,
Fly safe,
Feel free to ask if you have anything else on your mind

ET
CETERA



They are allowed to have manners and be sociable. It's called being human.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#68 - 2012-10-16 15:12:14 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Have a nice day,
See you soon,
Take care,
Fly safe,
Feel free to ask if you have anything else on your mind

ET
CETERA
KIller Wabbit wrote:

They are allowed to have manners and be sociable. It's called being human.

I fear that you may have misinterpreted Ammzi's post, KW. He was offering up alternatives (at my prompting) to the closure he found mildly annoying. Your reply makes it appear you think he is saying they shouldn't use those.

Ammzi, those are all good suggestions. Thanks.

MDD
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#69 - 2012-10-16 15:38:53 UTC
Amber Accelerando wrote:
I would like to float the idea that this level of 'moderation' was never needed, is totally superfluous & counter productive & is in fact destroying the health of the Community.
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence*. Succinctly, what is your evidence that the health of the Eve community is in decline? What is your evidence that the present level of moderation is a factor in such decline?
Amber Accelerando wrote:
Ok, firstly I detect smugness, so I'll try not to be too irritable.


smugness: Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one's situation
Well, I don't know that is precisely correct, but I'll own that character flaw since it is probably partially true. Thanks for leveling with me without leveling me.

Amber Accelerando wrote:
I'm speaking from personal experience with the Forums, I used to enjoy the Forum experience & considered it representative of the community at large & good fun, entertaining & vibrant.

Now, definitely not. The quality of threads is in sharp decline as is the quality of the discussion & even when a good discussion does happen chances are it will be imposed upon by an ISD who will attempt to direct the conversation, warn players of possible 'rule violations' or simply lock it for whatever inane reason imaginable.
This sounds like a strawman. You claim that the quality of the threads and the discussions is down without supporting it, you imply that somehow those declines are caused by the new moderators without elaborating how that could be, and you vilify the moderators by saying that they maliciously interfere in otherwise desirable discussions. Now I'll grant you a half point on that last item, as Gargant has already said that some "over-moderation" has happened, although I don't think there has been any evidence to support malicious motivation. I, personally, have reported ISD moderator actions that I believe are improper, but in every case it appeared to be a problem of inexperience (leading to uninformed judgement) and not maliciousness. I believe the Community team is making good-faith efforts to reign in those actions/actors.

Amber Accelerando wrote:
The new forums have the excellent Block function available
I am not a fan of the block function. It seems to be a punishment appropriate for irredeemable posters, but I like to believe that there's a chance that a character's terribad post may be followed later by a gem.

There's more in your post to which I'd like to respond, but I'm afraid I'm out of time at the moment.

MDD
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2012-10-16 17:08:43 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Humor does seem to be addressed with a bias. Several threads have been allowed to exist that would have been locked immediately if they had been started today.

Is there a process where a global moderator consensus can be applied to locking a humor thread? Would a dislike/like function for only the moderators be helpful in resolving this?

If you don't want to have a Humor Suspect taking off before getting a moderator consensus can be reached use a flag that locks the thread temporarily - one publicly visible.

ISD moderation is subject to petition, but I wonder if petitioning would really fix the unfairly locked threads problem because it would still be dependent on one person's sense of humor, which is definitely going to have culture bias in it.


These are two excellent observations. Firstly no matter whether it is a Community Rep or an ISD member, petitioning will always cause us to review what went on. If we find that something was done badly we make sure the people involved know about it. That should at least cause some awareness to that specific subject.

Secondly, humor. We are a very humorous bunch here at CCP as might have become evident by some of the tomfoolery we do. I must admit that we don't have a specific guide to what constitutes humor and what constitutes as a contentless contribution. That is one of the things I intend to have changed though.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#71 - 2012-10-16 19:31:17 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Humor does seem to be addressed with a bias. Several threads have been allowed to exist that would have been locked immediately if they had been started today.

Is there a process where a global moderator consensus can be applied to locking a humor thread? Would a dislike/like function for only the moderators be helpful in resolving this?

If you don't want to have a Humor Suspect taking off before getting a moderator consensus can be reached use a flag that locks the thread temporarily - one publicly visible.

ISD moderation is subject to petition, but I wonder if petitioning would really fix the unfairly locked threads problem because it would still be dependent on one person's sense of humor, which is definitely going to have culture bias in it.


These are two excellent observations. Firstly no matter whether it is a Community Rep or an ISD member, petitioning will always cause us to review what went on. If we find that something was done badly we make sure the people involved know about it. That should at least cause some awareness to that specific subject.

Secondly, humor. We are a very humorous bunch here at CCP as might have become evident by some of the tomfoolery we do. I must admit that we don't have a specific guide to what constitutes humor and what constitutes as a contentless contribution. That is one of the things I intend to have changed though.


If a thread is contentless it would die out by itself... if people are responding, there is either an element of content or humor

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Amber Accelerando
One Point 0
#72 - 2012-10-16 21:28:18 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:

The internet was an extreme solution to a problem that never really existed. Times change.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that this thread is a response to the fact that a certain degree of overmoderation did happen sometimes. As we have said, mistakes happen and sometimes we are wrong. By doing this we are trying to give you binoculars to watch the watchers, so to speak.


You think?
By
Quote:
did
you mean past tense?
Sorry beg to differ.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#73 - 2012-10-16 22:27:01 UTC
I think what he means is it will not happen as often in the future :)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#74 - 2012-10-16 22:41:27 UTC
Bubanni wrote:

If a thread is contentless it would die out by itself... if people are responding, there is either an element of content or humor


That is a rather limited outlook. How often can and will a topic wind down to the same 3 or 4 people in an insult loop or rehashing the same info that's been said before for the past 20 pages? Specially rumor mills that incite arguments from false allegations. It may be funny for a bit to read the ridiculousness of it, yet it can confuse others as to the truth of it and shine an unwarranted bad light on CCP. They are not black-ops coverups but shouldn't spreading baseless allegations toward a company be moderated on their own forums?
A passive or overlooking attitude toward their forums can show a lack of care or respect to their consumer base. While others see a sneaky company covering up misdealings, or a lack of trust to the maturity of those on the forum. Then you have other negative thinking because "just the right people" are not part of the main moderation program. They wont be pleasing everyone with their decisions on humor or content.
No, you can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you just might find You get what you need.
Becka Goldbeck
#75 - 2012-10-16 22:48:07 UTC
I agree with Amber I don't see how any objective person could look at these forums and say with a straight face that they aren't over-moderated. It seems to me that practically every thread has an ISD posting in it, conducting some sort of subversion. As MailDeadDrop was saying, it's clear that the ISDs are conducting themselves and even cultivating a forum persona in ways completely inappropriate for their position.

How would they like it if I had mod powers?

If I posted as I do now and then had the gall to modify and delete other's posts, or any other regular poster for that matter. That is what seems to be happening now with these ISDs.

The working definition of trolling which has been adopted is so unnecessarily strict, that unless you delete almost all the threads you leave yourself open to the necessity of selective moderation, at the mercy of the mod's bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious.

The Devs like to say that they try to be "hands-off" as much as possible in-game.

Why in the world should it be any different on a FORUM, where we come to express ourselves?
Reptail
#76 - 2012-10-16 23:42:06 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Bubanni wrote:

If a thread is contentless it would die out by itself... if people are responding, there is either an element of content or humor


That is a rather limited outlook. How often can and will a topic wind down to the same 3 or 4 people in an insult loop or rehashing the same info that's been said before for the past 20 pages? Specially rumor mills that incite arguments from false allegations. It may be funny for a bit to read the ridiculousness of it, yet it can confuse others as to the truth of it and shine an unwarranted bad light on CCP. They are not black-ops coverups but shouldn't spreading baseless allegations toward a company be moderated on their own forums?
A passive or overlooking attitude toward their forums can show a lack of care or respect to their consumer base. While others see a sneaky company covering up misdealings, or a lack of trust to the maturity of those on the forum. Then you have other negative thinking because "just the right people" are not part of the main moderation program. They wont be pleasing everyone with their decisions on humor or content.
No, you can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you just might find You get what you need.


Do you realize this is a game forum and not your job, courth or jail forum?
In my point of view you are doing quite the opposite than attracting people, if someone new reads your posts more than twice cuts his/her veins, boring!

Ground Shiwer
Amber Accelerando
One Point 0
#77 - 2012-10-17 00:25:37 UTC
Becka Goldbeck wrote:


How would they like it if I had mod powers?

If I posted as I do now and then had the gall to modify and delete other's posts, or any other regular poster for that matter. That is what seems to be happening now with these ISDs.

The working definition of trolling which has been adopted is so unnecessarily strict, that unless you delete almost all the threads you leave yourself open to the necessity of selective moderation, at the mercy of the mod's bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious.


Becka, I cannot improve on your posts.

A+++
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#78 - 2012-10-17 00:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Reptail wrote:

Do you realize this is a game forum and not your job, courth or jail forum?
In my point of view you are doing quite the opposite than attracting people, if someone new reads your posts more than twice cuts his/her veins, boring!


But its your job to try and disparage and insult peoples point of view to the degree of mentioning others would try and commit suicide from reading them because they conflict with your own? What point does that serve the discussion?
Oh, it does serve as a good example of what kind of post can keep a topic afloat without an element of content or humor (personal preference of course).
Reptail
#79 - 2012-10-17 00:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Reptail
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:


But its your job to try and disparage and insult peoples point of view to the degree of mentioning others would try and commit suicide from reading them because they conflict with your own? What point does that serve the discussion?
Oh, it does serve as a good example of what kind of post can keep a topic afloat without an element of content or humor (personal preference of course).


It is pointless to argue with you , stay well.

Edit and I meant "job forum" "jail forum" or "courth forum" not that isnt your right to post,
Do you really think someone would really commit suicide by reading your posts?(might happen) lol. it was ironik, anyway
why do you take it so serious ? Not to offend you but you seems a bit angry at others, like you want to destroy everything that is fun,
I just expressed what i felt, so speak to me not "others" (even if used plural so sry for that), and
yes it might help if it's not only me who feels that about posters like you (note: dont take it personal I'm taking you just as an example of the direction these forums are taking).

Ground Shiwer
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#80 - 2012-10-17 02:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Reptail wrote:

It is pointless to argue with you , stay well.

Edit and I meant "job forum" "jail forum" or "courth forum" not that isnt your right to post,
Do you really think someone would really commit suicide by reading your posts?(might happen) lol. it was ironik, anyway
why do you take it so serious ? Not to offend you but you seems a bit angry at others, like you want to destroy everything that is fun,
I just expressed what i felt, so speak to me not "others" (even if used plural so sry for that), and
yes it might help if it's not only me who feels that about posters like you (note: dont take it personal I'm taking you just as an example of the direction these forums are taking).


See how easy it is to misconstrue the intentions of a post when you just post without thinking or reviewing what you wrote. This is what moderation in ISD, CCP or otherwise have to deal with. A personal attack or a poorly thought out point? I can see some who get moderated can happen due to poor taste than malicious intent. Its an international game, there are a lot of views. Some of which will take some un-serious comments as you see them, seriously. Know your audience when you are trying to make a point.
Also: I want to destroy everything fun because I play eve.