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Moderation discussion thread

First post First post
Author
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#21 - 2012-10-15 19:59:39 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
It's not a good idea in general to publish internal guidelines on how to handle the various rule violations. If that would answer all the questions and eliminate the grey areas, we'd totally do it. But in reality, going into too many specifics only tends to make things worse for everyone because of the endless complexity of human behavior and creativity. It's hard for us to internally define once and for all how to interpret every rule in the book for every scenario, so trying it clear it up for everyone will probably blow up the planet or something.

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to reply, and I can imagine some aspects of what you describe. But I'm still leery of the wisdom of Gargant asking for "a place to discuss our rules and the actions we take when those rules are broken" in an environment that still has the "don't post about specific moderator actions" rule alongside the "we aren't going to tell you the rules" mindset. Just what, exactly, are we supposed to say?

But, I will take it as an act of faith that neither you guys (CCP hf) nor the ISD volunteers are going to be jerks. How very un-Eve-like. Heh. Smile

So, on to another example.

First, disclaimer: I have a sense of humor. I am not some dour, pasty, resentful, emo kid. That said, I don't think it is necessary for ISD volunteers to be funny (or attempt) in the middle of a thread without any other content or purpose. Cites:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040528#post2040528
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040535#post2040535

"You (ISD volunteer) want to make a funny?" Sure, no problem. Do it as a normal player character, not as your moderator character. But don't go being part of the problem making completely off-topic posts as a moderator.
(Note: I'm still in favor of little dabs of humor in the locking posts.)

CCP Guard wrote:
P.p.s. Here´s a picture of CCP Gargant after he heard something about the benefits of drinking and moderation

White wine? While computing? How gauche. Real Brogrammers drink beer at the keyboard. Tell Gargant "Son, I am disappoint."

MDD
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#22 - 2012-10-15 20:08:49 UTC
Hi MDD,

Just to stop you before you go very far with this.

As CCP Gargant stated, this thread is about the discussion of moderation in general, not specific cases.
He's said quite clearly what you need to do, if you've got a problem with a specific case of moderation:

CCP Gargant wrote:

There is a difference between discussing moderation in a general sense and discussing specific instances of moderation. The latter type should always be petitioned to us in the Community Team by selecting the Other Issues – Community category. This will allow CCP staff to review what has occurred and hopefully answer any questions that might have been raised by moderation actions. The URL to file petitions is the following:

https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/MyPetitions.aspx


[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#23 - 2012-10-15 20:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi MDD,

Just to stop you before you go very far with this.

As CCP Gargant stated, this thread is about the discussion of moderation in general, not specific cases.
He's said quite clearly what you need to do, if you've got a problem with a specific case of moderation: *snip*

Suggesting that I have a problem with those two examples is rather overstating it. I'm using them as recent examples of cases where I believe the moderator persona has been abused. As far as I know there's no reason why those two ISD posts, or any others like them, couldn't have been made by normal player characters. The posts themselves aren't especially deserving of censure (as Gargant alluded: we should err on the side of under-moderating lest we nuke the forums).

The point which I failed to clearly state is that moderators should always remain mindful of the hat they wear. Perhaps there should be a policy that moderators ask themselves "is there a compelling reason that I should post this in the persona of a moderator?"

And BTW, this is exactly the knife's edge of the problem I was dancing around earlier: it's hard to discuss moderation in general without citing moderation specifics to support or refute one's claims.

MDD

PS: This is a case where ISD and CCP characters diverge. In the case of CCP characters, CCP hf. has publicly tied people to characters. Those people have less freedom than the people behind the ISD characters, as the latter always have the option of posting as a normal player character* whereas the former are somewhat constrained to that one "CCP blarg" character.

*Let's not consider the absurd case of a ISD volunteer having no active normal player characters...

PPS: In the exceedingly unlikely event that I become employeed by CCP hf., I hereby lay claim to "CCP Blarg". Big smile
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#24 - 2012-10-15 20:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Hi,

Yes, we realise that - I was just concerned that you were going spend a long time writing a constructive post, based on specific posts.

As you may know, I'm a lead in the CCL team, my job is to coach existing members, train new members, be a sounding board for tricky problems and before ISD Eshtir and the Community team, to be a voice of authority.

From my perspective, I can tell you that we're encouraged to be communicative, friendly, transparent and funny when it's appropriate.
After all, we would much rather our CCL staff to be posting rather than moderating.
You'll note that many CCP staffers post with a certain amount of frivolity and we're encouraged to emulate that, to a certain point.

Our position is intended to be liaisons in the community more than it's custodians and the best way for us to achieve that is to be a part of the community.

The community team might have more to say about this, but as far as the day to day operations of the CCL team are concerned, that's how we like to do things.

Quote:
*Let's not consider the absurd case of a ISD volunteer having no active normal player characters...


Indeed, you're not actually able to be a part of ISD without having an active account.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#25 - 2012-10-15 21:06:55 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Yes, we realise that - I was just concerned that you were going spend a long time writing a constructive post, based on specific posts.
Why, one might get the impression you were implying my missives were long-winded and prone to unproductive diversions. ShockedTwisted

ISD Suvetar wrote:
As you may know, I'm a lead in the CCL team, my job is to coach existing members, train new members, be a sounding board for tricky problems and before ISD Eshtir and the Community team, to be a voice of authority.
Actually, I wasn't aware of that, but I'm glad to know now.

ISD Suvetar wrote:
From my perspective, I can tell you that we're encouraged to be communicative, friendly, transparent and funny when it's appropriate. After all, we would much rather our CCL staff to be posting rather than moderating.
I think you and I disagree on that last point. The ISD volunteers have (AFAIK) normal player characters with which to engage in non-moderator activities. The CCP staff, which you mention that you are encouraged to emulate, have less freedom to use normal player characters. And I do agree that the "communicative, friendly, transparent, and funny" are all worthy goals provided they are achieved within the confines of moderator activities.

ISD Suvetar wrote:
Our position is intended to be liaisons in the community more than it's custodians and the best way for us to achieve that is to be a part of the community.
I have a difficult time arguing against this point. Being part of the community does seem to be a worthy goal. But the most visible activities (AFAIK) of the forum moderator portion* of the ISD seems to be the locking, editing, and moving of threads, which to me sounds entirely like custodianship and not liaison. And while the people behind the ISD characters may be perfectly enjoyable folks to be around, when they use the ISD character in the forums as custodians, there are some attributes they really must have (trustworthy, impartial, communicative, merciful), and some attributes which may be useful but are not critical (friendly, funny), and some which are counter-productive (flippant).

MDD

*I'm vaguely aware that ISD may do things such as in-game chats. I'm not addressing those other activities here.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-10-15 21:30:24 UTC
Would it be possible to greatly increase the alive timer for the posts in Tech Lab. Currently you seem to have global 90 days inactivity lock, but in that specific forum at least I have threads which I am probably going to update on later date even the periods between the updates can be longer than the 90 days.

Examples:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6555&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8962&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75401&find=unread

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#27 - 2012-10-15 21:33:21 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I think you and I disagree on that last point. The ISD volunteers have (AFAIK) normal player characters with which to engage in non-moderator activities. The CCP staff, which you mention that you are encouraged to emulate, have less freedom to use normal player characters. And I do agree that the "communicative, friendly, transparent, and funny" are all worthy goals provided they are achieved within the confines of moderator activities.


On this specific post; we certainly do have normal player characters, but we're not permitted to be using them 'on the job' so to speak. It's important to maintain detachment in that regard so we can't be accused of favouritism. It's also why we're not allowed to moderate posts that belong to or involve our character/s. corporation or alliance.

I was first involved in ISD in 2005, and this is the way it's been for all that time.

If you've not seen it, we held a seminar this weekend - this is the transcript. I like to think it's interesting reading!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#28 - 2012-10-15 21:52:18 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
On this specific post; we certainly do have normal player characters, but we're not permitted to be using them 'on the job' so to speak.
Does "on the job" in this context refer to a specific block of time? Meaning that you are not permitted to freely switch between the characters, provided doing so isn't to engage in sock puppetry or other shenanigans? Such a policy definitely hinders my point about separating the ISDs moderator actions from other normal player activities. If so, can you or CCP elaborate on the thinking behind such a prohibition?

ISD Suvetar wrote:
It's important to maintain detachment in that regard so we can't be accused of favouritism. It's also why we're not allowed to moderate posts that belong to or involve our character/s. corporation or alliance.
*pause*
BA-HA_HA_HA_HA_HA!
Honey, you can always be accused of favoritism. While it is obviously important to avoid actual favoritism (Hi CCP IA!), it is also important is to avoid the appearance of favoritism. Or "conflict of interest" as my lawyer brother might say. No, my brother's name is not Alex. AFAIK he doesn't play Eve, and that's probably for the best for everyone. Well, except you filthy money-grubbing CCP accountants. Lol

ISD Suvetar wrote:
If you've not seen it, we held a seminar this weekend - this is the transcript. I like to think it's interesting reading!

Yes, I had intended to attend the event live. Alas, the fates conspired against me. I'll try to get to the transcript in the next couple of days.

MDD
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#29 - 2012-10-15 22:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
I think the spam and the trolling is a problem, yes... but I also think the ISD has done a pretty poor job of moderating the forums all around. They delete posts and lock threads that are sometimes just funny, or sometimes a genuinely good topic of conversation (albeit sometimes controversial).

Edit: Snipped - we're not discussing personal or individual issues here. Insults aren't very nice either
If you've got a personal complaint, the OP tells you what to do.

ISD Suvetar.


Edit: This ^

That wasn't a personal complaint specifically. The observation applies to you as well as the other ISDs, and it's definitely relevant to the conversation. No wonder people dislike the ISDs so much... you aren't moderating. You are taking things personally. You are trying to control the conversation. You (ISD) remove legitimate posts. Funny posts. You (ISD) often do this randomly based on personal preference and NOT on any actual guidelines. I want you (ISD) to do the job... but the manner in which you do it is biased and just makes the forums dry and tedious. I think using volunteers for it is a failure. The ISD is just too unprofessional.

~Gogela

Signatures should be used responsibly...

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#30 - 2012-10-15 22:06:12 UTC
Touché Pirate

I hope you take my intended meaning though!

We ask that our moderators perform a minimum of 6 hours a week; though more is nice. Because we're volunteers, we don't and can't necessarily enforce a time slot. The ethos is that you can do what ever time you want whenever you feel like it.
Myself and many of the others do a lot more than those 6 hours; I do more hours then my day job at times, but not because I'm asked to.

ISD Eshtir is probably better placed to talk about this holistically, but I can tell you that you can't really pay attention to EVE if you're reading posts all the time. It's why so many of us follow EVE-Radio!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#31 - 2012-10-15 22:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
I think it's important that our forums have a place where we can talk about anything, even if it includes a little trolling
You should be able to go on the forums and have fun, read something funny and content less... I mean who decides what is content on a general discussion forum..."general"

Making eachother mad in eve is also healty for a game that is all about conflict and community,

You should make a forum section with less forum moderation where people are actually allowed to have fun, provoke each other and such, as long as there is no* racism and such

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#32 - 2012-10-15 22:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Gogela wrote:
I think the spam and the trolling is a problem, yes... but I also think the ISD has done a pretty poor job of moderating the forums all around. They delete posts and lock threads that are sometimes just funny, or sometimes a genuinely good topic of conversation (albeit sometimes controversial).

I've been using the "Report Post" flag to provide (what I hope is) corrective feedback on specific moderator actions. Although it is open-looped (I don't get feedback on how effective they, individually, are), for convenience it beats petitions hands down. I recommend it. General statements such as the above lack the specificity of which moderation actions you disagree with, and the comment gives you a chance to say how the moderation action should have been handled differently.

Gogela wrote:
Wow. Talk about the blind leading the blind. You are one of the worst when it comes to deleting posts that are lightharted and funny. Your sense of humor is terrible. You really shouldn't use yours to gauge what constitutes "funny."

Now see, I'd call the above "unproductive personal attack." You can disagree with the moderator's apparent sense of humor (or lack thereof), but the moderator really has no one else's sense of humor from which to judge. The content of your message can be greatly simplified to: "you're a poor moderator -- go away." That is both extremely unlikely to happen and unlikely to effect any change in the moderating policy. In fact, in a more Machiavellian universe* that borders on evil trolling (making "unpleasant" moderation more likely).

If you genuinely want the moderation to change, you'll need to put forth the effort to compose useful suggestions as to how it could be better.

MDD

* One shudders at the mere hint of a thought of a more Machiavellian universe than Eve...
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#33 - 2012-10-15 22:21:29 UTC
ISD Eshtir, Suvetar, CCP Gargant, Guard: You'll forgive me for jumping in here to respond to a post clearly directed at one or all of you, but I can't resist gimmes!

Bubanni wrote:
I mean who decides what is content on a general discussion forum..."general"

Simple answer: the forum owners. In this case, that's CCP hf., an Icelandic corporation. More elaborately, CCP hf., through her officers, has delegated that authority to the CCP Community team, and from them to the ISD moderators.

Bubanni wrote:
Making eachother mad in eve is also healty for a game that is all about conflict and community,

I find that claim unsupported and suspect on its face. Can you provide a more detailed, reasoned, post support it?

MDD
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#34 - 2012-10-15 22:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I think the spam and the trolling is a problem, yes... but I also think the ISD has done a pretty poor job of moderating the forums all around. They delete posts and lock threads that are sometimes just funny, or sometimes a genuinely good topic of conversation (albeit sometimes controversial).

I've been using the "Report Post" flag to provide (what I hope is) corrective feedback on specific moderator actions. Although it is open-looped (I don't get feedback on how effective they, individually, are), for convenience it beats petitions hands down. I recommend it. General statements such as the above lack the specificity of which moderation actions you disagree with, and the comment gives you a chance to say how the moderation action should have been handled differently.

Right. I get my post deleted if I get specific because it's viewed as a personal attack, but if I don't get specific my opinion is invalid because it wasn't substantiated with specifics. That about cover it?

MailDeadDrop wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Wow. Talk about the blind leading the blind. You are one of the worst when it comes to deleting posts that are lightharted and funny. Your sense of humor is terrible. You really shouldn't use yours to gauge what constitutes "funny."

Now see, I'd call the above "unproductive personal attack." You can disagree with the moderator's apparent sense of humor (or lack thereof), but the moderator really has no one else's sense of humor from which to judge. The content of your message can be greatly simplified to: "you're a poor moderator -- go away." That is both extremely unlikely to happen and unlikely to effect any change in the moderating policy. In fact, in a more Machiavellian universe* that borders on evil trolling (making "unpleasant" moderation more likely).

If you genuinely want the moderation to change, you'll need to put forth the effort to compose useful suggestions as to how it could be better.

MDD

* One shudders at the mere hint of a thought of a more Machiavellian universe than Eve...

That's exactly what I am saying. The volunteer program does not work. The ISD's should "go away". CCP might actually have to pay someone to do the job because the ISD as it is isn't cutting it. That's my cold judgement of the ISD as an organization... an attempt to support my argument. If you are going to use an example you might have to get specific... but fine I'll speak in general terms: Fire the ISD and hire some pros.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#35 - 2012-10-15 22:50:54 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
ISD Eshtir, Suvetar, CCP Gargant, Guard: You'll forgive me for jumping in here to respond to a post clearly directed at one or all of you, but I can't resist gimmes!

Bubanni wrote:
I mean who decides what is content on a general discussion forum..."general"

Simple answer: the forum owners. In this case, that's CCP hf., an Icelandic corporation. More elaborately, CCP hf., through her officers, has delegated that authority to the CCP Community team, and from them to the ISD moderators.

Bubanni wrote:
Making eachother mad in eve is also healty for a game that is all about conflict and community,

I find that claim unsupported and suspect on its face. Can you provide a more detailed, reasoned, post support it?

MDD


I base my opinion on the fact that eve is marketed as a cruel and unforgiving game, "or something like that"... but on the forums we are only allowed to be carebears, not provoke each other and such

Conflict is a content generator in eve, it gives a reason to shoot someone, because they annoy you, if there is something they should moderate it should be alt posting....

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
#36 - 2012-10-16 00:13:15 UTC
Thought Police will deem it necessary to remove this post, re-written History requires very strict guidelines to be adhered to. No dissent, no unpopular opinion, no criticism, no ideas unless they meet the Thinkpol criteria.

These Forums have been rendered un-usable by a corruptly motivated, unjust, dishonest, condescending, morally bankrupt agenda.

CCP you don't know what you have until it's gone eh?

Delete away; *rant, off topic, abusive, trolling,* or any other of the myriad offensive 'excuses' used to censor paying customers from exchanging ideas you don't like.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#37 - 2012-10-16 00:20:10 UTC
III ZiggyBang wrote:

These Forums have been rendered un-usable by a corruptly motivated, unjust, dishonest, condescending, morally bankrupt agenda.

The meta game isn't supposed to be played against those that maintain the general health of the community. There really isn't a reason for it.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#38 - 2012-10-16 00:25:08 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
III ZiggyBang wrote:

These Forums have been rendered un-usable by a corruptly motivated, unjust, dishonest, condescending, morally bankrupt agenda.

The meta game isn't supposed to be played against those that maintain the general health of the community. There really isn't a reason for it.

The reason this thread exists and has been sticky'd at the top of GD is because your assertion that ISD have been effective in "maintaining the health of the community" is in question.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#39 - 2012-10-16 00:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Gogela wrote:

The reason this thread exists and has been sticky'd at the top of GD is because your assertion that ISD have been effective in "maintaining the health of the community" is in question.

Then they should go about it in a more proper business like nature and try to form their opinions from facts and real examples for their dislike and belief they are ineffective rather than just dressing up their distaste for moderation as orwellian/reich like a alliance political game.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#40 - 2012-10-16 00:57:55 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Gogela wrote:

The reason this thread exists and has been sticky'd at the top of GD is because your assertion that ISD have been effective in "maintaining the health of the community" is in question.

Then they should go about it in a more proper business like nature and try to form their opinions from facts and real examples for their dislike and belief they are ineffective rather than just dressing up their distaste for moderation as orwellian/reich like a alliance political game.

Facts and real examples will be removed by moderators as personal attacks.

Signatures should be used responsibly...