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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#101 - 2012-10-11 16:01:42 UTC
And bounty offices ought to be in a shady section of space stations, far end from where CONCORD has theirs.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#102 - 2012-10-11 16:02:59 UTC
Two things that caught my mind regarding selling kill rights...

Only valid in high-sec is obvious.

'Spending' a kill right to kill a cheapo ship is another. One way to fix this could be to tie the cost of buying the kill right to the eventual cost of the ship lost. E.g. above the base price the would-be assassin pays an amount into escrow decided by the client, and if killed the ISK, minus the difference if the loss was to cheap, is returned. No kill also results in ISK being returned, and ejecting from ship counts if the ship got popped.

Nyan

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#103 - 2012-10-11 16:03:52 UTC
Erik Finnegan wrote:
And bounty offices ought to be in a shady section of space stations, far end from where CONCORD has theirs.

yeah you really can't take a bounty office seriously if there's office ferns in little pots everywhere
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#104 - 2012-10-11 16:04:15 UTC
Sanna Irvam wrote:
I worry about high sec haulers. What?

With the new system, if I understand, i can put a 100k isk bounty on a freighter pilot, buying killrights and having a fleet ganking the freighter without Concord coming...

Problem ?


You understand it wrong. A bounty does not grant anyone kill rights. Or indeed any new rights they didn't already have. If you gank someone in high-sec, CONCORD will pay you a visit, whether or not your gank victim had a bounty on his head.
darius mclever
#105 - 2012-10-11 16:04:43 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
and ejecting from ship counts if the ship got popped.


If they keep the limitation that you cant eject from targetted ships anymore. this part is a non issue.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#106 - 2012-10-11 16:07:02 UTC
Juan Zezole wrote:
Firstly, nice to see dev time being focused on a broken system that could be so much more (as a SW Galaxies refugee I KNOW how a decent Bounty Hunter system works).

And now for the reality check.

POINTLESS

All your work, all the bells and whistles. Pointless.

Until you make it possible to hunt targets without interferance from CONCORD in high sec on an ad-hoc basis every last second of the time you have dedicated to this is pointless. For the love of all that is holy, give us one kill contracts. Give us Harrasment contracts. How god damn hard is it to get through to you guys?? High-sec should not be immune to non consentual PVP.


The way EVE's game mechanics are designed, the attacker is massively favoured over the defender, so EVE needs high-sec and CONCORD in order to function. EVE's mechanics do not enable me to fit my ship with sufficient defensive measures while still being able to conduct gainful business such as hauling or mining.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#107 - 2012-10-11 16:07:29 UTC
Salpad wrote:

Actually, I just did the "math". If you take the square root (X^0.5) and multiply by 20, then the "discover fee" on a 50 billion bounty is a bit over 4 million. So probably an exponent other than 0.5, and certainly a multiplier larger than 20, if anything like my suggestion gets implemented.


Flat fee.

Period, the end.

Thinking too hard about something that is simple.



Where I am.

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#108 - 2012-10-11 16:07:42 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Sanna Irvam wrote:
I worry about high sec haulers. What?

With the new system, if I understand, i can put a 100k isk bounty on a freighter pilot, buying killrights and having a fleet ganking the freighter without Concord coming...

Problem ?

addding bounty doesn't create a killright


Correct, but Sanna actually did say "buying killrights". I overlooked that part of her post as well.
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#109 - 2012-10-11 16:07:48 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am confused.
I have read the dev blog twice.
I see the part in the blog where the -1 sec status requirement has been removed, so that makes me think anyone in the game, in any sec area, can have a bounty on them, and be a target if someone if some bounty hunter is willing to accept high sec consequences of Concord.

So what is to stop someone like goons from placing a 10 billion isk bounty on someone they dislike, which pays out with 50 billion ISK in ship and implant losses, then restarting the bounty again, until the person they have set the bounty on has had their assets completely wiped out?


I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


Right now? Anonymity. It's hands-off. You could plausibly grief someone out of the game without them ever knowing who or why, or be able to respond to it. With the depth of some wallets, I could see people picking names at random, just to amuse themselves.

I think this is really the best argument for knowing who put a bounty on you. If nothing else, it gives you a means to respond, by placing a bounty on them or their corp, or even deccing them. The system is all about consequences, but there should also be some consequences for using the system, no?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#110 - 2012-10-11 16:08:19 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
Salpad wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
we're going to make it so you can't place bounty on inactive characters

I like that you still hate him though after all this time Blink


I'm not really sure I hate him. EVE is just a game. But it sort of became a minor and peripheral ambition of mine, that I might one day become a wealthy merchant prince and be able to buy some revenge on this pilot. Now, five years later, you're finally making that possible.

What about him knowing who placed the bounty, though? And what about bounty retraction for that other guy to whom I lent ISK?


No-one will know who placed a bounty against them, if you have been a bad bad person then I am sure you will have your suspicions.
You will be able to track your contributions to other bounty targets though through the bounty office.


Yeah, this is a bad thing, and respectfully I would ask you to take a second look at it and its potential to be abused, especially since I can now place a bounty, anonymously, on anyone at all for any reason. The victim should at least know who did it, y'know?


We have been actively discussing this for a while. This is one of the key reasons for the dev blog, we are asking you guys for your thoughts.

And I see more and more people ask about this. So that is good to see.


If the bounty is not anonymous the players setting bounties will just hide behind alts. I would keep it anonymous just for that. The game does not need more reasons to have special alts. (Forum trolling alt, war dec immune OOC alt, bounty placing alt...)

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#111 - 2012-10-11 16:09:00 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Salpad wrote:

Actually, I just did the "math". If you take the square root (X^0.5) and multiply by 20, then the "discover fee" on a 50 billion bounty is a bit over 4 million. So probably an exponent other than 0.5, and certainly a multiplier larger than 20, if anything like my suggestion gets implemented.


Flat fee.

Period, the end.

Thinking too hard about something that is simple.





I don't find thinking hard.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#112 - 2012-10-11 16:09:40 UTC
Juan Zezole wrote:
Firstly, nice to see dev time being focused on a broken system that could be so much more (as a SW Galaxies refugee I KNOW how a decent Bounty Hunter system works).

And now for the reality check.

POINTLESS

All your work, all the bells and whistles. Pointless.

Until you make it possible to hunt targets without interferance from CONCORD in high sec on an ad-hoc basis every last second of the time you have dedicated to this is pointless. For the love of all that is holy, give us one kill contracts. Give us Harrasment contracts. How god damn hard is it to get through to you guys?? High-sec should not be immune to non consentual PVP.


2 things.

1) Highsec is not immune to non-consensual PvP and these bounties will actually go towards making sure that ganking can be profitable if the target has gotten themselves noticed by someone willing to drop ISK on it.

2) Your tone could use some work. People don't tend to listen to assholes, y'know?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2012-10-11 16:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salpad wrote:
Sanna Irvam wrote:
I worry about high sec haulers. What?

With the new system, if I understand, i can put a 100k isk bounty on a freighter pilot, buying killrights and having a fleet ganking the freighter without Concord coming...

Problem ?

You understand it wrong. A bounty does not grant anyone kill rights. Or indeed any new rights they didn't already have. If you gank someone in high-sec, CONCORD will pay you a visit, whether or not your gank victim had a bounty on his head.

^^ Needs to be underscored more because it has been a constant point of misunderstanding ever since the first hints about the new system started coming out.

The only thing this new bounty system will do is make it a risky proposal to fly expensive ships, depending on how the ship value is calculated. For instance, if it were straight market value, a jump freighter would pay out ~1.5bn ISK for the hull alone, which is right up on the edge of being profitable on its own… and then there's the question of what — if any — payout you get for the cargo and whether or not you can scoop up some loot while you're at it.

Salpad wrote:
Correct, but Sanna actually did say "buying killrights". I overlooked that part of her post as well.
What kill-rights will a freighter pilot have generated?
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-10-11 16:11:04 UTC
Form this point forward EVE will be a new game!!!!!

Superfriends rulez!!!
Dirael Papier
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#115 - 2012-10-11 16:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirael Papier
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I disagree with this. Flat fees work great in this case, whereas making it proportional to the bounty size puts even more of the power in the hands of the issuer.

OOH! OOH OOH OOOH!!!

Something I'm gonna steal from Sword Art Online would be great for this! (At least I think it would)


Finding out the bounty issuer could start with a flat fee. Say it's 5m ISK.

The Bounty Issuer then gets a message saying that a request has been made to reveal their name. If they don't want their name revealed, they can pay an increased price of their choosing (minimum 5m ISK above the price offered by the other person.)

The person with the bounty on them then gets a message asking them to further escalate (minimum 5m above the previous offer) and this continues until one side stops escalating.

If the bounty issuer declines to escalate the price, or doesn't respond within like, 24 hours then their name is revealed.

If the person trying to find out the name of the jerk that put a bounty on them declines the offer or doesn't respond within 24 hours then they won't be given another opportunity to find out the other person's name.


Or maybe the 24 hour limit could start from when the bounty is placed, and all escalations have to be made within that time, including the initial 5m one. I dunno. Could be kind of a fun ISK sink though.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#116 - 2012-10-11 16:12:53 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Correct, but Sanna actually did say "buying killrights". I overlooked that part of her post as well.

Ehhh I thought the wording suggested the right being available as a result of placing the minimum amount of bounty, but the important thing is unfair stuff like that can't happen vOv
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2012-10-11 16:14:32 UTC
I'd like to echo the concern that as it stands, it'd be too easy for someone with outstanding killrights against themselves to scrub those killrights by killing themselves in a cheap ship with an alt. Killrights should only be removed if the value of the kill exceeds the price paid for the killright, IMO.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#118 - 2012-10-11 16:16:24 UTC
Dirael Papier wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I disagree with this. Flat fees work great in this case, whereas making it proportional to the bounty size puts even more of the power in the hands of the issuer.

OOH! OOH OOH OOOH!!!

Something I'm gonna steal from Sword Art Online would be great for this! (At least I think it would)


Finding out the bounty issuer could start with a flat fee. Say it's 5m ISK.

The Bounty Issuer then gets a message saying that a request has been made to reveal their name. If they don't want their name revealed, they can pay an increased price of their choosing (minimum 5m ISK above the price offered by the other person.)

The person with the bounty on them then gets a message asking them to further escalate (minimum 5m above the previous offer) and this continues until one side stops escalating.

If the bounty issuer declines to escalate the price, or doesn't respond within like, 24 hours then their name is revealed.

If the person trying to find out the name of the jerk that put a bounty on them declines the offer or doesn't respond within 24 hours then they won't be given another opportunity to find out the other person's name.


Or maybe the 24 hour limit could start from when the bounty is placed, and all escalations have to be made within that time, including the initial 5m one. I dunno. Could be kind of a fun ISK sink though.


that could be cool but I worry about the server load a million back and forth bounty information bids will create.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#119 - 2012-10-11 16:16:29 UTC
This is a great start overall! To share some of the feedback I've given privately to the team, now that the information is out...

Here are the strong points:

-Incrementally-paid bounty pool, no using an alt to collect a high bounty for profit. Each payout comes at the loss of something more valuable. This is critical to the creation of a less exploitable system.

-Flexibility in being able to place bounties on individual, corps, AND alliances. Bounties on structures are desperately needed as well (SOMETHING has to lend itself to resembling a "mercenary marketplace", allies aren't it) though I respect that the team has many technical hurdles to overcome when dealing with structures, hopefully this will be a priority following the Winter release.

-Kill right integration. This is CRITICAL to using the bounty-hunting system to expand PvP opportunities into high sec that weren't previously available. Otherwise, you still have to suicide gank someone to get a payout, and the loss of your gank ship may not justtfy the earnings on the incremental payout. Being able to buy a killright from a victim and use it to legally aggress someone in highsec in order to claim a bounty is very important for this to see widespread use and popularity and for true "player justice" to occur.


And some areas of concern:

-Minimum bounty amount. This puts a big damper on the "little guy" being able to chip in some money into the pool on a player or organization's head. If its a pool that's used to make payments on kills, I see no reason why individuals can't contribute to that pool incrementally. It seems like an unnecessary barrier of entry that will only limit its use.

-Lack of being to set up specific collection criteria. While this system is a huge improvement over the existing one, its still all publicly-redeemable. It would be fantastic if player could set up specific recipients for bounty collection, and would help create a market for the services of successful Bounty Hunters or successful Bounty Hunting corporations. While it is not PROFITABLE to claim one's own bounty, its still possible. Again, it sounds like this is a matter of when, not if, we'll see this capability.

-Related to above, what is stopping me from having my alt buy and claim my killright and redeem it by killing me in a cheap frigate? If being able to specifically dictate who can claim a killright isn't going to come with the earliest release, it leaves open room for easy shedding of killrights.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-10-11 16:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Adjusting the Payout %:
The way these systems work is great. Could the bounty system have a sliding bar which allows you to assign larger portions of ISK per kill to the target? Say I really want a target dead I could a high bounty on his head and slide the payout for the kill to 40%.
This would make killing more elusive targets more profitable, and bring an interesting dynamics for what targets these bounty hunters would select targets to go after.

Selective Recipient Bounties:
Bounty contracts would make things much more flexible where people could bid for contracts and the issuer would accept them based on their credentials/reputation. You could have high percentage payouts without running the risk of the target themselves claiming the bounty due to the selective nature of the contract.

Bounty Details
"He killed my Cynabal, he must pay for the damage he did! You can find him in Curse and his home is in this station. He missions in this system. He flies mainly drakes and Falcons."

The issuer of the bounty should be able to write a small amount of text giving details of the target, their habits, or the reasons for the bounty, assisting their bounty hunter. These could have details which link to where the issuer believes the pilot is located in eve, regions or systems.
Obviously bounty hunters could approach the issuer of the bounty to get further details but having it as part of the bounty advertisement would streamline the process. Knowing those with bounties on their heads in your constellation would be a great dynamic.

The obvious downside would be the target finding out that people knew where he was and counteracting it by moving or going offline.

Reported Sightings

"No one likes being a Rat... but if it pays well"

As well as bounties for killing the target, a small pool of ISK could be put in the Bounty which is given to players who locate the player. The locator could right click the person in local or right click on his ship and report a sighting which would update the location of the pilot on the bounty and give the locator an amount of ISK set by the issuer. The location report would have time/location which could either be made public or sent to the issuer to allow him to send out the information to selected bounty hunters.