These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Resilan Bearcat
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#981 - 2012-10-10 16:07:33 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
If you are not warp-scrambled, your ship will always attempt to do a 1-million km emergency-warp if you disconnect (outside of a forcefield). It will then wait out any log-off timers at this position. Whilst here, you can be scanned down as normal.
Having nothing but an NPC flag at the moment you log-off will keep you in space for a non-extendible 15 minutes. (Numbers subject to change)


I hope the 15 minutes gets reduced for NPC flagging. In my opinion, 3-5 minutes would be much more appropriate for the NPC flag while leaving the PVP flag at 15 minutes. It is pretty common to see a someone disconnect while running sites for a variety of reasons. Leaving them vulnerable to counter-attacks without any recourse for such an extended period of time is unnecessary when there was no player involvement prior to the disconnect.
Pipa Porto
#982 - 2012-10-10 16:12:02 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yes, that's the point. The intent of that is to reduce the incentive to use neutral logistics.

You only get the PvP flag for shooting someone. So either you're butting into an LE with logi or you're butting into a Wardec with logi.


Then you're not getting the point yet. I understand that there are bad ways in which neutral logies are applied and so called good ways.

A bad way:

A and B are at war with each other. B has a neutral logi alt that reps him which appears once B starts to lose the fight. It's annoying, but it happens. That's the nature of a sandbox. War is ugly. I understand that CCP tries to prevent this from occurring, but then they are trying to intervene into something they shouldn't as it severely hurts the good ways in which neutral logies are applied

A good one:
The Goonswarm example I mentioned earlier.
If they attack a freighter in Uedama, they have 20 seconds or so before they go poof by CONCORD. If I see the freighter being attacked, I can aid the freighter by attacking the Goons which would just give me a PvP and weapons flag. Or if I am in a logistics cruiser as a neutral pilot, I could aid the freighter by repping it. Yet, the aggression motive (attacking Goons) is allowed, but the protection motive (repping the freighter) would give me a suspect flag.

I know there are good and bad sides to repping. Bad ones happen more often than good ones, but isn't that the nature of EvE? Completely removing the aid of logistics pilots hurts the game more than allowing neutral logistics to exist in relative safety. It simply tries to limit the sandbox CCP is famous for.


No, it doesn't. The Freighter pilot does not have the right flags for you to become a suspect for repping him because he hasn't shot anyone (he can't).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#983 - 2012-10-10 16:15:45 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
That's how you screw over Mr White Knight!!!!


And then Mr White Knight can tackle the now Suspect Alt A while calling for help in local advertising 2 free kills.


And then we can have a fun and proper escalation.... Good times by all!


So now you're saying it doesn't actually work to screw over the White Knight.

The escalation is universally one sided. Only the white knights get to escalate, and they get to escalate freely, endlessly, and with no need to commit until their safety is ensured.

A proper escalation is two sided.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#984 - 2012-10-10 16:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Scenario 1: Mr Freighter is an illegal target. Freighters cannot actually aggress a Player, and as such will NEVER be in a limited engagment. As long as Mr. freighter doesn't attack back, he's can get free logistics, where the logistics pilot won't get flagged a suspect.

Scenario 2: Mr Freighter is a legal target for the Tornados. If you do NOT flag the logistics pilot, then Mr. Logistics can rep and rep and rep and non of the Tornado Pilots can do anything about it. They can't even attack the logistics ship... do you not comprehend how incredibly bad this would be for highsec warfare???


Not anymore:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Looks like I forgot to include the other, inverse rule, which goes something like this:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion


In scenario 1,
Freighter pilot: PvP flag
Tornado pilots: PvP, Weapons and Criminal Flag (ships go poof by CONCORD)
Logistics pilot: Previously just a PvP flag (CW2.0 if you will), now he will get a PvP flag and be flagged as a suspect (CW2.01)

In scenario 2,
Freighter pilot: PvP flag
Tornado pilots: PvP and Weapons flag
Logistics pilot: Previously just a PvP flag (CW2.0 if you will), now he will get a PvP flag and be flagged as a suspect (CW2.01)

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is the system we have now.... where crimewatch has to keep track of A can shoot B who can shoot C who cannot shot A who can Shoot D who..... This grows cumbersome, and is what CCP is trying to escape from.


I agree with you on this one. Although I do favor it, it does lead to this problem and I can understand it being changed. All I don't want to see is completely removing the ability of neutral logistics to do anything. I know it's freaking annoying when you are at war with another player and an NPC logi pilot as alt appears to ruin the fight. But that is the nature of EvE. Fights aren't fair and square. War isn't fair and square. Don't limit the abilities of a neutral logistics pilot by openly branding them suspect as soon as a target they wish to rep has a PvP flag.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#985 - 2012-10-10 16:31:35 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
That's how you screw over Mr White Knight!!!!


And then Mr White Knight can tackle the now Suspect Alt A while calling for help in local advertising 2 free kills.


And then we can have a fun and proper escalation.... Good times by all!


So now you're saying it doesn't actually work to screw over the White Knight.

The escalation is universally one sided. Only the white knights get to escalate, and they get to escalate freely, endlessly, and with no need to commit until their safety is ensured.

A proper escalation is two sided.


I agree with this, which is why I proposed adding a Good Samaritan Flag
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#986 - 2012-10-10 16:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Singulis Pacifica wrote:


Not anymore:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Looks like I forgot to include the other, inverse rule, which goes something like this:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion




I made a mistake....

The freighter will get a PvP flag when he is aggressed by another ship.... He cannot get a weapons flag, but any act of aggression against the freighter will give the freighter a PvP flag...


So, CCP Masterplan.... Should it say Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miilitia mate with a WEAPONS flag would give you a PvP flag.... If it is the PvP flag... then this is somewhat extreme!!!! As a freighter being suicide ganked cannot receive remote repair without the logistics going Suspect..... If it were based off of a Weapons flag, however, then neutral RR can rep all day long as long as they only provide assistance to players that aren't actually shooting others!!!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#987 - 2012-10-10 16:41:17 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:

I agree with you on this one. Although I do favor it, it does lead to this problem and I can understand it being changed. All I don't want to see is completely removing the ability of neutral logistics to do anything. I know it's freaking annoying when you are at war with another player and an NPC logi pilot as alt appears to ruin the fight. But that is the nature of EvE. Fights aren't fair and square. War isn't fair and square. Don't limit the abilities of a neutral logistics pilot by openly branding them suspect as soon as a target they wish to rep has a PvP flag.



Neutral Logistics are still able to interfere in a war, or come to party and spoil the day.... EVEN if they get a suspect flag. WIth the suspect flag, it just means they put themselves at risk when they do come to the party uninvited.... and this is a GOOD thing. It means neutral logistics open the door for unexpected third parties to escalate the fight... It means Neutral Logistics can go VERY VERY Wrong in a completely unexpected manner. So why is this a bad thing?? It doesn't prevent neutral logi's... it just makes it more risky to utilize them!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#988 - 2012-10-10 16:47:31 UTC
Resilan Bearcat wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
If you are not warp-scrambled, your ship will always attempt to do a 1-million km emergency-warp if you disconnect (outside of a forcefield). It will then wait out any log-off timers at this position. Whilst here, you can be scanned down as normal.
Having nothing but an NPC flag at the moment you log-off will keep you in space for a non-extendible 15 minutes. (Numbers subject to change)


I hope the 15 minutes gets reduced for NPC flagging. In my opinion, 3-5 minutes would be much more appropriate for the NPC flag while leaving the PVP flag at 15 minutes. It is pretty common to see a someone disconnect while running sites for a variety of reasons. Leaving them vulnerable to counter-attacks without any recourse for such an extended period of time is unnecessary when there was no player involvement prior to the disconnect.


I would only support a 3-5 minute timer if they can be given an infinitely extendable PvP timer by any player that actually scans them down and aggresses their ship prior to it despawning. Many, Many nullbears use log-off tactics when PvE'ing to avoid roaming PvP gangs, and frankly they shouldn't. Game mechanics that leave these players vulnerable for a moderate time frame will end this lame tactic.

The truth is, a 15 minute window will rarely get you killed by a roaming PvP gang unless that gang is entering system when you "conveniently" disconnect.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#989 - 2012-10-10 16:53:24 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Yes, that's the point. The intent of that is to reduce the incentive to use neutral logistics.

You only get the PvP flag for shooting someone. So either you're butting into an LE with logi or you're butting into a Wardec with logi.


Then you're not getting the point yet. I understand that there are bad ways in which neutral logies are applied and so called good ways.

A bad way:

A and B are at war with each other. B has a neutral logi alt that reps him which appears once B starts to lose the fight. It's annoying, but it happens. That's the nature of a sandbox. War is ugly. I understand that CCP tries to prevent this from occurring, but then they are trying to intervene into something they shouldn't as it severely hurts the good ways in which neutral logies are applied

A good one:
The Goonswarm example I mentioned earlier.
If they attack a freighter in Uedama, they have 20 seconds or so before they go poof by CONCORD. If I see the freighter being attacked, I can aid the freighter by attacking the Goons which would just give me a PvP and weapons flag. Or if I am in a logistics cruiser as a neutral pilot, I could aid the freighter by repping it. Yet, the aggression motive (attacking Goons) is allowed, but the protection motive (repping the freighter) would give me a suspect flag.

I know there are good and bad sides to repping. Bad ones happen more often than good ones, but isn't that the nature of EvE? Completely removing the aid of logistics pilots hurts the game more than allowing neutral logistics to exist in relative safety. It simply tries to limit the sandbox CCP is famous for.


No, it doesn't. The Freighter pilot does not have the right flags for you to become a suspect for repping him because he hasn't shot anyone (he can't).


Actually, an easy mistake (which I made).... The freighter pilot will gain a PvP flag anytime someone else attacks it. As such, the last statement by CCP Masterplan means the ONLY time you can use logistics in a highsec PvP situation and avoid going "suspect" is if you are repping your corp, alliance, or militia member.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#990 - 2012-10-10 17:01:37 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


No, it doesn't. The Freighter pilot does not have the right flags for you to become a suspect for repping him because he hasn't shot anyone (he can't).


It gives the freighter a PvP flag. According to CCP Masterplan,

CCP Masterplan wrote:
Looks like I forgot to include the other, inverse rule, which goes something like this:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion


this will give the logistics pilot a suspect flag. I agree with you that this used to be different when CW2.0 was announced. Logi pilots were only able to be branded a suspect if they intervened in a fight in which an LE was present. Or they simply repped someone that was already a suspect to begin with.

Now it's:

If the logi pilot is not from the same corp/alliance/or militia and he reps someone with a pvp flag, he gets to be a suspect.
Rengerel en Distel
#991 - 2012-10-10 17:20:44 UTC
Any chance this thread can just be locked for the next 9 days? So tired of reading how A shot B while C was repping D and E - Z were docked up watching TV, so does F get an S flag for talking smack in local to W (not to be confused with the W flag) ...

Just log onto the test server when it's up and test the **** instead of page after page of hypotheticals.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#992 - 2012-10-10 17:28:54 UTC
Summary of issues with CW 2.0:

CCP Masterplan wrote:
Looks like I forgot to include the other, inverse rule, which goes something like this:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion


You gain a PvP flag anytime you shoot someone OR anytime someone shoots you. So, this statement means the only way you can use logistics in a highsec PvP situation is when repping a non-npc corp mate, alliance mate, or militia mate. In every other situation, the logistics pilots will gain a suspect flag, enabling ALL pilots to shoot them.

How to abuse this. Find an incursion fleet... Prepare your gank ships. Warp a noobship into the incursion and criminally shoot any blingy BS that has Sansha Aggro. The Logi's then have to decide on saving that BS or going suspect. If they go Suspect, warp in gank fleet and kill them. If they don't go suspect... scoop the loot as the sansha's make short work of that blingy BS!

--- Suggested change: Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a WEAPONS flag would get you a Suspect flag.

This would enable neutral logi's to rep any target safely, as long as that target isn't shooting another player.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************
CCP Masterplan wrote:

Our current thinking on this is something like:

Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)

But this is still something we're discussing
* Excluding NPC corps, and assisting Outlaws in high-sec


This means that when your corp mate is in a Limited engagement, because they shot at Suspect B who can flipped them, that you can come assist them in a logistics ship, and Suspect B can NOT legally engage you. In short... free, INVULNERABLE logistics are available to all corp members that are shooting suspects.

How to abuse this: Put a remote sensor boosted fast tackling inties on a highsec gate. Anytime a suspect comes into system, tackle it and gank it with your in-corp fleet. Keep 2-3 logi pilots on grid to provide all the free logistics you desire... You might miss the occasional pod or shuttle, but you should easily catch and kill any other suspect that runs your gate camp.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************
Gangs of Vigilantes:

A gang of vigilantes should ALWAYS win the day. Tactics to use:
1.) Focus fire: A suspect can only shoot those that aggress them first. If you focus fire, that means the majority of your gang will receive damage from a single suspect, while your overwhelming focused fire quickly dispatches them.

2.) Use in-corp / alliance / militia logistics: As long as you don't get a suspect / criminal flag, your logistics can rep you all day long and the suspects can't even shoot or jam or neut your logies. Hell... they can't even FOCUS FIRE to overcome logi reps...

3.) Bring a falcon, and use it to jam out suspect logistics ships.... sure, the logi's will then get aggression rights on the falcon... but even an untanked griffin has little to fear from that.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#993 - 2012-10-10 17:30:35 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Any chance this thread can just be locked for the next 9 days? So tired of reading how A shot B while C was repping D and E - Z were docked up watching TV, so does F get an S flag for talking smack in local to W (not to be confused with the W flag) ...



Lol

But the situation is that it's the design of the dev blog to be an open-ended discussion on the plans and feedback of it is used to alter the final implementation. I agree with you that theorycrafting isn't the best without proper ways to test results, but it's all we have available right now. Straight
Pipa Porto
#994 - 2012-10-10 17:56:32 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


No, it doesn't. The Freighter pilot does not have the right flags for you to become a suspect for repping him because he hasn't shot anyone (he can't).


It gives the freighter a PvP flag. According to CCP Masterplan,

CCP Masterplan wrote:
Looks like I forgot to include the other, inverse rule, which goes something like this:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion


this will give the logistics pilot a suspect flag. I agree with you that this used to be different when CW2.0 was announced. Logi pilots were only able to be branded a suspect if they intervened in a fight in which an LE was present. Or they simply repped someone that was already a suspect to begin with.

Now it's:

If the logi pilot is not from the same corp/alliance/or militia and he reps someone with a pvp flag, he gets to be a suspect.


CCP Masterplan wrote:
something like this:


I'm sure they'll make sure you can logi Freighters. Even if they don't, grab an ECM boat and you'll be more effective.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#995 - 2012-10-10 20:55:29 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Kumbu Valley wrote:
To be honest, I dont expect CCP to make it easier for gankers but also that they dont make it impossible from now on. Ganking was always a part of the game (remember the days when BPO and BPC became visible within cargo scan, combined with "Yarr" by CCP). If it is not intended anymore then pls announce openly and does not leave it to the mechanics.

Secondly and more important looting wrecks needs to be possible! How the ninjas shall feed their families? Just kidding but really, what about wrecks in faction warfare, in official war declaration? What is the mechanics here? You cant go suspect with looting the wreck! Without making them blue for the aggressor/killer/war oppnent whatsoever, it is not possible to loot them anymore from what I read. That cant be the intention. Therefore I would appreciate clarification and leave it not to find out in December. Thanks.

From the dev blog:
"If I can legally attack the owner of a container, then I can legally take from the container."
If you kill a war target (including an FW target), since you are legally allowed to attack them you are also legally allowed to take their stuff.


That's not the issue, if you're suicide ganking you're going for illegal targets, but for it to still be viable the targets wreck need to be lootable without allowing everyone in EVE to shoot the looter without penalties. War targets is a completely different issue.
Doddy
Excidium.
#996 - 2012-10-10 21:16:49 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Che Biko wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion

Ah, so is that why my "question" about the possibility of extending LEs to the assisting player was not answered yet? Can I assume then that it's technicaly feasable and could be implemented without too much workQuestion

If we start propating LEs, we basically end up back with the old aggression-graph, where assisting a single target can end up flagging you to an un-knowable set of people. That is what we're trying to avoid with the flag system.


If logis can rep and not be attacked back you have broken agresison mechanics more than its ever been broken, ever.
Doddy
Excidium.
#997 - 2012-10-10 21:17:22 UTC
and i mean ever
Pipa Porto
#998 - 2012-10-11 05:46:59 UTC
Doddy wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Che Biko wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Assisting a non-corp/alliance/miliitia-mate with a PVP flag would get you a Suspect flag
Again, this one is still under discussion

Ah, so is that why my "question" about the possibility of extending LEs to the assisting player was not answered yet? Can I assume then that it's technicaly feasable and could be implemented without too much workQuestion

If we start propating LEs, we basically end up back with the old aggression-graph, where assisting a single target can end up flagging you to an un-knowable set of people. That is what we're trying to avoid with the flag system.


If logis can rep and not be attacked back you have broken agresison mechanics more than its ever been broken, ever.



Isn't it great that that was their initial plan a couple months ago when they first described this?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Camera Drone
EYES 3VERYWHERE
Sentinel.
#999 - 2012-10-11 07:08:55 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Tippia always comes up with flippiant answers that have very little basis in reality.
This 15 minute NPC timer means death for any ratter who has an internet outage.



If I remember correctly ships will warp out to a "safe area" if you disconnect, unless you are already pointed.


rats point, you know. especially sleepers
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
#1000 - 2012-10-11 07:47:37 UTC
Camera Drone wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Tippia always comes up with flippiant answers that have very little basis in reality.
This 15 minute NPC timer means death for any ratter who has an internet outage.



If I remember correctly ships will warp out to a "safe area" if you disconnect, unless you are already pointed.


rats point, you know. especially sleepers

Which makes it more important than ever to clear the scram NPCs ASAP. But it reduces the issue of deaths due to legit network issues from "all the damn time" to a much narrower set of edge cases.

But I'm not CCP Soundwave, so what do I know?